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Messages - Upper_Krust

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1
Marvel Zombies / Re: What has Aaron done?
« on: September 28, 2018, 09:22:57 PM »
Well the punchometer...

...is the greatest and most accurate Comic Book fight predictor ever created.

2
Marvel Zombies / Re: What has Aaron done?
« on: September 28, 2018, 09:21:10 PM »
"Probably" an exaggeration? C'mon.

Regardless, CG's bad attitudes toward minority and female characters created or revamped at Marvel this decade run far beyond replacements of white male characters (Ms Marvel, Captain Marvel, Miles, Squirrel Girl...). This isn't really debatable for the movement as a whole, since there's plenty of pro-CG material arguing just that, whether or not your own individual views reflect their stances.

Are people not allowed to have a bad attitude towards characters they find are some combination of:
- shallow and uninteresting
- political mouthpieces
- diversified knock-offs

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Miles Morales is only relatively better received by CGers than Riri--there's still plenty of CG dislike and "diversity hire" flack thrown his way by a sizeable portion of the movement on CG sites, Twitter, YouTube comments sections, etc. Even Meyer himself dislikes Miles, though he avoids using racial reasons to explain why.


The only criticism I have seen from him about Miles was in the recent crossover featuring both 'Spider-men' where it seemed Miles was acting more like the established, experienced hero while Peter acted like the opposite.

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No, I've been pretty fair in sticking to actual things leading CG figures and sites have repeatedly claimed and asserted. I'm definitely not just grabbing random postings from the dregs of pro-CG sock accounts that have 3 Facebook friends, or my citations would be much worse. :)

...and so far the most you have is that D&C has said some offensive things about a year ago (mainly in a private chat) and made some clickbait-y exaggerated video titles.

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No, that doesn't work. I tried to be fair ever since we started discussing this, and I've sampled his videos. He's repeatedly stated that women hired from other media don't work well in comics for lack of experience, even if they've worked in fiction before (check out his Life of Captain Marvel videos). Other CGers have repeatedly said the same things.

Yet equally he has praised multiple female writers from the past and present.

So what are you saying here...that female writers cannot be criticized? Or if you do criticize them you are automatically sexist?

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So, yeah, making a YouTuber who doesn't even script his videos or employ any kind of creative production values--and whose only comics ventures beforehand were total financial and creative failures--one of the most successful of the CG creators is the height of hypocrisy.


Well I am sure if his books are bad (as I have repeatedly noted) his sales will diminish.

Although worst case scenario they are as lacklustre as some mainstream books.

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I don't care that much, but even if I did I don't have to pray--he's already released plenty of scripted pages, and they were objectively awful.

I'm not even talking about taste--I love plenty of trash (pulp fiction, grindhouse movies, etc.). But on a technical level, they're bad.

I don't like the art, beyond that the writing didn't seem hideous and given the story I wasn't expecting Watchmen.

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The pretense that CG is apolitical, and not largely just a mostly reactionary right wing movement?

There are virtually no mainstream Conservative writers so those writers have to go somewhere.

As for political or apolitical content, lets just let the market sort out what it wants. I don't particularly want any political preaching in my entertainment - but then again I also don't see MS-13 being used as villainous characters any different from using any other types of villains (Nazis, Commies, Islamic Terrorists, Mafia or whatever).

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You think anti-Nazi and anti-fascist sentiments were held by all Americans when Captain America #1 came out, before the U.S. entered the war?


I'd doubt it since even in Britain here at that time there were many pro-fascists like (politician) Oswold Mosley. However, importantly they were vastly outnumbered and I suspect the same was the case in the US.

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You should research the phrase "prematurely anti-fascist"--not only were those sentiments considered left wing and divisive by conservatives and even some centrists in the U.S. at the time, but being on the record as having been anti-Nazi/anti-fascist before 1942 was used as evidence of possible communist ties during the 50's and 60's. Simon and Kirby were making a huge political statement with Cap, and it was mostly a left wing thing until the U.S. caught up.

(...looked into it) Very interesting although (as you note) 'possible communist ties' were something that occurred a decade or so later (after Nazism had been defeated).

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And while Marvel's anti-communist messages were more mainstream in the early 60's, Stan's very unsubtle and in-your-face pro-Civil Rights sermonizing certainly was not. Everyone remembers Martin Luther King Jr. as a saint nowadays, but there were huge swaths of the country against what he was doing, particularly by conservatives in both parties and much of the South. Our contemporary acceptance of those political platforms don't change how they were viewed at the time, and Stan got plenty of negative mail from the Silver Age equivalent of Comicsgaters for being too political.

Maybe if Stan was writing now he'd be doing stories with Captain America battling MS-13.  8)

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Not only did Waid very explicitly say he wanted to talk to Meyer in the very Facebook thread Ethan cited, but they did in fact talk on the phone *5 days later* when it turned out Meyer wasn't at the con (also posted on Facebook). Any pretense otherwise by CGers is laughable, especially when the pretense is that the chubby middle-aged nerd with no record of violence was looking to smash the trained Marine with a record of kicking someone's ass (which Waid had already known about).


I know they talked in private. D&C mentioned it in one of his videos but said Waid didn't really want to chat as much as state his opinion.

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Van Sciver knows all of this information, but still chose to blatantly and knowingly spread lies about Waid, full stop. You're better than defending such a profoundly stupid amd dishonest tactic on his part, and it's definitely another cynical example of the faux-martyrdom they typically engage in to help sell books.

Yet he did get his Publisher to drop him.

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How is B. Clay Moore Waid's "cohort"? Explain to me what their relationship is, assuming they've ever even directly interacted at all in any meaningful way. Comicsgate is an actual movement, but simply being anti-Comicsgate is not.


That was just a fanciful comment on my part. I don't know what their relationship is other than they are both Anti-Comicsgate and both wanted to 'run into' Meyer at the Con.

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But you've just admitted that you've never been to one of the most popular pro-CG web sites there is (much bigger than Bleeding Fool), and only occasionally watch videos from one of the most popular CG leaders there is, so it's weird to see you claim that he couldn't have been big because you didn't know about him.


I don't recall ever seeing (or reading) anyone talking about Bounding into Comics until about a week ago.

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He made a quarter of a million dollars with Alt-Hero, dude. Whether or not you knew him, all you have to do is Google him and follow the contemporary discussions about him in 2017 and early 2018 to see what a big deal he was in those circles, including nabbing Chuck Dixon. Objectively, he'd be on the Mount Rushmore of CG leaders before the (purely financial) fallout with EVS.

I'll check him out.

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That's simply not true, especially before September. Even from EVS himself, who was pulling for his success despite the criticisms of Vox's arrogance and lack of experience.

Also, frankly--and this isn't directed at you--all of the CGers who go apoplectic and lead boycotts against SJW creators, but then display a mild "live and let live" attitude about an open racist like Vox Day (with plenty even going further and supporting him) are repugnant.


I agree it would be hypocritical.

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Again, not directed at you, but when this mild attitude about (and support for) Vox Day coexists in the same CG circles with the furious anger directed at leftist writers they want to drive out of their jobs, I think it's very telling.

But that's like saying why are Leftists not angry when comic writers (like Mags Visaggio) support Antifa?

There are always going to be followers on the fringes of Comicsgate who support Vox Day.

There are people on both sides who support extremism, but you can't condemn one side without also condemning the other.

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While Meyer's attempts to repair his reputation definitely have their upside, that's a very feeble defense of Vox Day's career.

"The answer for those who support Western civilization, regardless of sex, color, or religion, is to embrace white tribalism, white separatism, and especially white Christian masculine rule."

That's Vox Day. Defending him is only one or two steps away from defending David Duke, who I'm sure also employs some people who don't agree with him.

Precisely why I don't support him.

Then again neither would I support Antifa and the Far Left anymore than I would support the Far Right.

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"'Black Panther and the Crew' was a segregationist comic about white genocide!"--Richard Meyer on PJMedia.

That's about as blatant a lie as it gets. Even your own inaccurate paraphrase of his statement is wrong (despite correctly specifiying gentrification), since you can't even say "superheroes" were against it plurally (a single one was against gentrification, but one supported it, and the others didn't give a crap one way or the other).

Is it as much of a lie as calling EVS a Nazi?

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Every single month? Really?

Averaging 12 per month this year. That's DOUBLE the average of the preceding 9 years.

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You mean Fantastic Four #1, which was double-sized at 48 pages? Seems like a bargain at that price for a new issue.

Who knows maybe they'll even have the actual Fantastic Four in issue #2.

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Ironheart #1 is going be $3.99 at less pages. The new Iron Man title was $4.99.

Part of me wants Ironheart (assuming its a good book) to do well, but I understand its tough for new(ish) characters. Especially derivative ones.

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Not only does overshipping contribute $0 to the bottom line (the only thing shareholders care about), but plenty of comic store owners have already pointed out that overshipments have always been a staple of doing business for a very long time.

I'm also pretty sure Marvel isn't overshipping by a whole 50 - 100% "many" times.

That's what stores have reported to Bleeding Cool.

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Standard industry practice even before the SJWs supposedly took over.

Are Retailer Incentive variants a new thing though? Or if not new, more in vogue than before.

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Marvel is part of a publicly traded company that is legally required to report accurate financial statements, accountable to shareholders, for which anyone lying on their reports can go to jail. Comicsgaters are a bunch of YouTubers and artists who make up conspiracy theories and very obvious lies about the industry with no accountability whatsoever.

As COO, Joe Quesada would've ended up fired (or "resigned") by now if CG claims were even 5% true.


What claims? That sales are down 6-7 percent on the previous year?

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On top of ignorance regarding easily searchable facts about comics industry and history, most of the more extreme Comicsgate business claims people like Meyer constantly spout display a shocking ignorance of how a public company of Marvel's size is run when there are 8 - 9 figure revenue streams at stake.

The only one who regularly touches on these things is Umbrella Guy and he seems to have a decent handle on the details.

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But I already answered your question--I said it depended on how the scene was written.

Oh no...the poor MS-13 murderers deserve SO much better, we can't have them treated in a stereotypical fashion, think of their hurt feelings.  :'(

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Now, answer mine: Are you confident I can show that page to a group of people who know nothing about Comicsgate and have less than 80% guess that Mike Miller is a pro-Trump conservative? Because that scene's politics are about as subtle as an atomic bomb, and would be obvious to any American who knows nothing else about the writer.

Already answered this. Any minority shown in a villainous light (even MS-13 gang members) is automatically going to infer a conservative writer given the left's 'shyness' in touching on such matters.

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Calling people f**s and transphobic comments in particular isn't just incidental rudeness--he's attacking those things specifically. Griffith never attacked straight people as a group when Meyer called him a f**, and Devin Grayson had never said anything about Meyer at all when he threw really vile sexist accusations her way.

Neither of us know every specific of every social media exchange.

Has D&C been stupid in all this yes he has. Have other people been stupid, yes they have.

I think I mention in another post about watching Ricky Gervais recently on Netflix where he insults all sorts of people including Bruce/Caitlyn Jenner. But telling such a joke (even one in poor taste) doesn't make him transphobic.

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But literally everything I said was correct on a technical level. He did write that they're having pudding for dinner because he was too lazy to do 30 seconds of Google translator research. He did bold words at seemingly random for very awkward emphasis. The sound effects are in the wrong spots at points. The dialogue is stilted and unnatural, without style to compensate. Etc.

As I understand it his son is Mexican (or half-Mexican) and presumably the son's mother. So he is going to have more of a knowledge on the words used than I am. I presume that's what he's drawing upon.

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You can claim "Hey, it's fun anyway", but technique is technique, and that's a pretty poor outing after criticizing the likes of his betters for 1000 hours.

I'm sure they'll be lining up to criticize his books don't worry. :)

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I said "maybe", and that's faint praise when I'm comparing him to Marvel's worst writer.

But still important to note you are saying he is good enough to work for Marvel.  ;)

3
Marvel Zombies / Re: What has Aaron done?
« on: September 24, 2018, 04:34:52 PM »
Hey V-Q...I'm going to be busy for the next 2-3 days. I'll try and squeeze in another reply tonight but if not I might be AWOL til Friday. Just a heads up.

4
Marvel Zombies / Re: What has Aaron done?
« on: September 24, 2018, 04:30:21 PM »
Just wanted to address this on its own in case I can't finish responding today, but that's a total fabrication I've seen CGers throw around--so in case that's where you're getting your numbers from:

https://www.publishersweekly.com/pw/by-topic/industry-news/comics/article/59513-diamond-reports-number-of-comics-shops-up-4-in-2013.html

Diamond reached 2,638 accounts as of that report in September 2013, after the dark days of the late 90's when the # of comic shops dropped below 2,000 (after a high of perhaps 7K - 8K during the unsustainable speculation boom of the early 90's). At no point during this century did the number of comic shops rise to above even 3,000, given that Diamond's retailer customer count growth was reported as roughly 2 - 3% a year after 2013 through 2016--the store count then dropped a whopping 1% in 2017 according to Diamond's VP, so it can't currently be below 2500 shops, either.

This serves once again to illustrate what frauds Meyer and the rest of the Comicsgate leaders are, blowing anecdotal evidence of comic shops closing out of proportion to feed into CG's savior and SJW persecution narrative (in addition to ignoring the actual sales data), spread completely false information about comic shop counts, etc.

Yes your numbers seemed much more plausible (that 6000 didn't seem real). Its possible he meant 2600 and not 6000 (maybe I misheard him? ); that makes more sense now that 50 closures in a year would be important.

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Yeah, the DM is experiencing problems (the 2017 sales drop was worse in the DM in particular), but this was offset by gains that were improved and/or retained in the book market, which is what helped keep the industry a billion dollars + and where comic sales have begun to transition.

Understandable - comics are written for the trade today so its no surprise trades are doing better while comic sales drop off a bit.

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CG focusing only on the DM (and lying about it) while ignoring the book market, and blaming the relatively small % of DM closures on SJWs, is one of the movement's most dishonest and stupid tactics (at least on the so-called leaders' parts).

Bleeding Cool reported about 50 Comic Shops closed in 2017 which would be around 2% for that year as well as earlier this year when 15 closed within one month (suggesting another 2% for the year in all likelihood).

https://www.bleedingcool.com/2018/01/19/fifty-comic-stores-closed-since-january-2017/

5
Marvel Zombies / Re: What has Aaron done?
« on: September 24, 2018, 04:15:38 PM »
Or he could have funneled all off that Russian money into real estate "investments", the way Trump did.

I'd agree you don't get to be a billionaire without stepping on a lot of toes.

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Either way, Manafort is now on the record as pleading guilty to concealing being an agent for Putin's Ukrainian interests, at the same time that Trump successfully pressured the Republican Party to change their Ukrainian platform, lied repeatedly about various Russian meetings that took place with his son and political associates/operatives (some of which have already pleaded guilty to lying about said meetings with Russian agents), coincidentally is creating tensions within NATO, etc., etc. Trying to claim there's absolutely nothing to suggest that the Trump/Russian collusion angle is more than a crazy conspiracy theory is rather silly at this point.

Guilt by association now then?

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Yeah, I mentioned 70 mil earlier in the thread; that was just a typo.

6% after 25% growth over 5 years is not even close to meaning the industry is dying, and you know it.

I agree, its called an exaggeration. However, it is a decline.

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No, as we said before, overships do not count as *revenue*, which is all I've cited.

Meyer lies to his followers and pretends it does (or is too ignorant to learn), but it doesn't--overshipments only count toward unit volume.


Yes we tackled overships but they weren't the only tactic at play.

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(although those 10+ #1 issues EVERY month is certainly boosting them with Speculators)

Would you like to research the volume of #1's Marvel has published every year in the past decade or two, especially as a ratio of total titles?

I guarantee any increases in the rate over the past couple years aren't anywhere near as substantial as CG suggests vs what they were in the supposed pre-SJW era.

AFAIK I'm the only person who has mentioned the increased #1 issues.

I took a look 2009-2018.

Average #1 issues per month by Marvel

2009 = 6
2010 = 8
2011 = 5
2012 = 3
2013 = 4
2014 = 7
2015 = 11 (beginning of All-new All-different and the soft reboot of the Marvel Universe hence the spike, would have been 8 without the spike assuming typical months for those 2 months)
2016 = 7
2017 = 6
2018 (currently) = 12

Conclusions: Pre-2018 the average launch rate was 6 #1's per month (even adding 2015's 2 month spike). That figure has been doubled for 2018.

I think time will tell if that is Marvel's new monthly strategy or simply a temporary upswing in their proliferation of #1's. Either way we should know by mid-2019.

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but to answer your question directly I think the sum totality of Comicsgate videos and articles talking about the Industry dying is a very small percentage of all articles/videos and often simply done for exaggeration purposes.

He's titled two videos that way in the last couple weeks,


So 2 videos in the past 2-3 weeks where he probably made 50+ videos.

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references Marvel's/the industry's low sales repeatedly in other videos, and his Twitter feed has been full of tweets and retweets exaggerating (or outright lying about) Marvel's sales slump (they've been up the last two quarters, but Meyer has reposted conspiracy theories about how they're secretly down), the rate of dying comic stores (without establishing any kind of baseline), etc.

He did establish a baseline in one video I saw where IIRC he noted it was 6000+ stores back in 2012 (or something like that).

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You keep deflecting any responsibility on his part with a weak "Oh, but he's just exaggerating" excuse, as if most of his fans are buying what he's saying as legitimate truth.

About the same number of fools on the other side probably think Comicsgaters are all Nazis. Gullible people fall for exaggerations - that goes for both sides.

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Twice in titles in the last week. Constantly on his Twitter feed over the last couple weeks. I bet if I wasted time listening to all of his videos, I'd find a lot more references to Marvel dying/industry dying/SJWs killing Marvel and the industry (I've already found more in my cursory review of his videos while trying to be fair to him).

Yes but if he is saying that based on falling sales and comic stores going out of business then while still an exaggeration (I agree) he's actually backing it up to a degree.

Not to mention we have Publishers like IDW actually losing $2+ million per year for the past few years.

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Our individual opinions are irrelevant in the context of this discussion. Did you know Riri's comics were averaging 30+K copies an issue well into her run, and (like Ms Marvel) found success in the TPB market, too (where their efforts to attract more diverse audiences do best)? Consistently outselling other established flagship titles like Green Lantern, Nightwing, Aquaman, etc. is pretty damn good for a new character created in the last few years, which is why they're giving her the spin-off treatment.

That said, I find CG complaints about her and Iron Doom hilarious--most of them are either rarely based on the actual comics themselves or hilariously misinformed about the historical context of these tropes (both of which were exposed when you tried using their arguments here).

If RiRi is so popular I'm sure her Ironheart* book will be an amazing success.  ;)

*In fairness I actually do like her new costume design though.

6
Marvel Zombies / Re: What has Aaron done?
« on: September 24, 2018, 01:52:17 PM »
So I have been following this thread and honestly at this point I have to ask outside of referencing The Jane Thor run which has a lot of problems but is an outlier even in the career of that one writer does this whole movement have any points that have not been debunked by now?

It hasn't been debunked because they have enough material to comment upon and the continued 'faux outrage' of creators on twitter (stepped up recently) highlights that this is almost exclusively a divide on political grounds.

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The whole "comics are dying" thing has been pretty clearly shown to be a massive example of exaggeration.

Well sales are down and comic stores are closing. So while saying Comics are Dying IS an exaggeration, the term is not an end state in and of itself.

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The issue of marvel replacement characters has been pretty clearly shown to fit into the trend of past marvel history. Yeah some of them were pretty crappy but I put that down to a lot of current writers and styles that are given a ton of freedom. Was the iron man replacement really any worse then Bendis milking the whole secret of Ronin?

Too many replacement characters at the same time, none of whom were handled well and with each and every one Identity Politics were pushed ahead of story.

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The whole current political trends are being unfairly forced into the comics is almost laughable compared to examples given from the past about how female characters were very intentionally margianialized in mainstream comics.

So do two wrongs make a right?

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In regards to various other points they are clearly outright lying on several events in current comics or exaggerating them so far beyond the context of the actual comic that they are useless to consider as valid criticism. Say what you want about hyperbole but if you distort something enough that you are no longer addressing the actual subject matter then you no longer have the right to act like you are presenting a valid point.

Agreed and I think that works on both sides of the fence which is why the 'truth' lies somewhere in between.

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A large number of the main personalities behind comicsgate are clearly sexist and racist. That has been pretty clearly shown through this thread and the fact that the movement is welling to accept the as major contributors says very negative things about it.

If you insult (for the purposes of humour or otherwise lets say for the sake of argument) various individuals including a woman does that automatically make you a sexist?

I was watching some Ricky Gervais stand-up (on Netflix) a few days ago and he was insulting/making fun of lots of people including Bruce/Caitlyn Jenner...does that mean he's automatically transphobic?

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It's also pretty clear that the movement is being hugely hypocritical complaining about inserting politics into comics and then supporting material that is equally far right from creators in the community. Honestly if you can look at scans posted a page bag and not see how they are playing into political narratives just as much as Jane Thor played into its own then you are allowing your own political views to blind you. Both were a huge turn off for me.

Marvel character's punch Nazis...Comicsgate characters punch Nazis AND MS-13 yet the latter is deemed politically biased.  ::)

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Are there actually any other issues because honestly it seems at this point comicsgate should be given zero credibility.

Certainly the (left leaning, identity politics steeped) mainstream wants Comicsgate totally no platformed.

7
Marvel Zombies / Re: What has Aaron done?
« on: September 24, 2018, 01:30:16 PM »
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One of the themes of the story was Black Superheroes against Gentrification.

No, it wasn't.

...I mean I wonder what the author's own position is on the matter:

[quote author = Ta-Nahesi Coates]I know that ‘gentrification’ is but a more pleasing name for white supremacy,[/quote]

https://fromtomorrowsdream.wordpress.com/2017/12/21/some-thoughts-re-coates-and-gentrification/

8
Marvel Zombies / Re: What has Aaron done?
« on: September 19, 2018, 12:31:26 PM »
(AFAIK) All profits from that second crowdfund on Iron Sights (selling off the remaining stock) went to LGBTQ Charity (the first $10,000) and the rest is going to Bill Messner Loebs.

Saw his post about the $10,000 yesterday, but I haven't seen him say he's not keeping most of the rest of the proceeds.

If I see him post that he's donated all of it, then fair enough.

I can only go by what I heard him say on a video, the rest of the money is going to a Bill Messner Loebs 'Go Fund Me' Page (or something like that).

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Marvel Zombies / Re: What has Aaron done?
« on: September 19, 2018, 12:29:22 PM »
From the plea deal itself:

"The Special Counsel informs the Court:

"1. PAUL J. MANAFORT, JR. (MANAFORT) served for years as a political consultant and lobbyist. Between at least 2006 and 2015, MANAFORT conspired with Richard W. Gates (Gates), Konstantin Kilimnik (Kilimnik), and others to act, and acted, as unregistered agents of a foreign government and political party. Specifically, MANAFORT conspired to act and acted as an agent of the Government of Ukraine, the Party of Regions (a Ukrainian political party whose leader Victor Yanukovych was President from 2010 to 2014), President Yanukovych, and the Opposition Bloc (a successor to the Party of Regions that formed in 2014 when Yanukovych fled to Russia)."

The tax fraud is directly related to him hiding being a paid agent for Yanukovych (Putin's man in Ukraine), etc. There are even statements from Manafort about how he used Ben Shapiro to plant stories according to that party's needs.

Sounds like he should have openly funneled any monetary 'donations' from foreign powers into a 'Charity' (like the Clinton Foundation). But it highlights how corrupt people in Politics are.

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Yeah, a mere $70 K less while still being a billion dollar industry.


Actually its down $70 MILLION...which is almost 7% of the Industry.

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Comicsgaters have a vastly inflated sense of their current size and economic power, and rely on conspiracy theories and ignorance to convince a gullible percentage of mostly right wing fans that THE COMIC INDUSTRY IS DYING (Meyer has actually been pushing this narrative even more aggressively now, despite Marvel showing consecutive monthly growth since April).

I'd argue a lot of Marvel's 'growth' is dubious (although those 10+ #1 issues EVERY month is certainly boosting them with Speculators) but to answer your question directly I think the sum totality of Comicsgate videos and articles talking about the Industry dying is a very small percentage of all articles/videos and often simply done for exaggeration purposes.

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Even my very casual following of VS and Meyer now is filled with a constant obsession of trying to convince their base that the industry is dying, conspiracy theories from anonymous sources that Marvel is actually secretly down 17%, conspiracy theories about blacklists and SJW agendas, fake persecution complexes, etc., on their Twitter feeds and YouTube videos.

By 'constant obsession' you mean talk about it once every 100 videos or something like that. :D

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Except CG criticisms aren't limited to Jane Thor, so your defense there doesn't really hold up.


Any counter criticism from you would be showing how RiRi (for instance) was a good character with good stories. Which you can't.

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I've read articles from CG sites like Bounding Into Comics call characters like Ms Marvel, Miles, et al diversity hires who whose creations were too driven by their ethnic/racial identities and nothing else, unlike the supposed good ole' days.

I suspect that's probably an exaggeration on their part. While its clear many of these new creators are only too happy to espouse their (left leaning of course) political opinions in both their writing AND on social media - I'd like to think that wasn't their only reason for getting into comics.

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Except in the good ole' days, characters like the all-new X-Men, Falcon, Black Panther, etc. were specifically created specifically for diversity and political reasons first, and they were no more three dimensional than someone like Ms Marvel.

Even if a character was created specifically for diversity and political reasons* (and personally I'm all for diversity and representation) they'll be MUCH better received if the stories they feature in don't ram identity politics down the readers throats at every turn.

*Such as Miles Morales for instance who is a far better received character than RiRi, despite coming from the same writer.

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CG philosophies are mostly based on willful distortions or genuine ignorance of actual comic history, current comic business practices, and business 101.

I think you are confusing Comicsgate 'philosophies' with anything ever said by any Comicsgater ever including Clickbait video titles.

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Except this is a movement about quality and industry experience. Why would they willfully choose to spend so much of their money on a YouTuber whose only previous experience are failures, unless they're guilty of exactly the kind of behavior they claim SJWs indulge in?

Probably because if his books are half as entertaining as his channel then they'll be fun reads.

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Marketing isn't an excuse--that actually makes it worse because of the nature of their rallying cries and criticisms. In the end, they bought Meyer's comic almost solely because of his identity as a leader in their community.

...and because he is entertaining.

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Given the samples Meyer has released, my magic 8-ball says the CG community better be ready to get clowned.

I'm sure you and others are praying* its bad. :D

*Even the atheists

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Also, again, marketing is no excuse, given the movement's goals. A vegan community caught eating burgers doesn't get to say, "Oh, but the marketing!" to avoid getting mocked. If you're a movement, you either stick to your principles or don't.

I don't see what principles they have not stuck to. The primary principle has ever been to see (and make) entertaining comics not drenched in identity politics.

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Then CG should just abandon their non-political pretense and admit what they are.

What political pretense are you on about?

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Also, Marvel comics in particular have consistently been mostly about left wing politics within the context of their times. Even the anti-Commie stance of the early 60's was just Kennedy-flavored Democratic politics.

Yes and anti-Nazi comics of the 40s and Anti-Commie comics of the 60s were values held by all (because Nazism and Communism are terrible ideologies).

Many of today's mainstream comics are openly Anti-Conservative/Republican though - as are many vocal mainstream creators.

So you can't point to Cap punching Hitler or Thor blowing up Commie tanks as examples to excuse modern identity politics in comics.

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You are aware that even within that post, Waid made it clear within a couple hours that it was to talk to him, right?


Except Waid obviously doesn't want to talk with Meyer at all - otherwise he could have spoken to him on twitter or on a livestream (as Waid did with EVS).

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And Van Sciver not only already knows this, but knows that Waid is a 56 year old chubby nerd with 0 adult fighting experience, and Richard Meyer is a trained Marine who already got into legal trouble for kicking someone's ass (which Waid knew about)?

But, sure, let's let Van Sciver off the hook for continuing to tell this absolutely moronic lie.

I don't see Waid getting into a fistfight with Meyer but I could see some of his baying cohorts (like B. Clay Moore* who IIRC did private message about punching Meyer at that Con) starting something.

*who's Kickstarter book still hasn't been fulfilled years after he took the money.  ::)

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Vox Day was repeatedly discussed in CG circles and even sites like Bounding Into Comics; he was on Van Sciver's channel; etc. His crowd funded success with the first Alt-Hero is what helped ignite CG crowdfunding heading into 2018.

I've never actually been to Bounding Into Comics (though I'll go check them out) and I never saw him on EVS channel (I only watch the occasional video so I could have easily missed him), so he can't have been THAT big a presence.

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I believe what you're saying about your own experience, but the leaders in the CG community clearly knew what he was and aligned themselves with him anyway until he screwed them over (and, even then, he's retained support from significant corners of CG).

I don't agree with what Vox has said but I'm not going to begrudge him making a living just because he has opinions I find distasteful. From what I saw the vast majority of Comicsgaters were in opposition to him.

Equally, I'm not going to criticize creators who work with him either directly or tangentally, that's their business. Even if you find some of the things D&C has said distasteful, I'm sure you'd agree his giving $10,000 to LGBT charities is a GOOD thing. So positives can come from people we disagree with; Vox likely employs 'x' amount of people and my guess is most of them don't share many of his opinions.

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I'm literally just describing exactly what Meyer did. He blatantly lied about Black Panther and the Crew using terms like "white genocide" on YouTube, PJMedia, and even Twitter to court clicks from that Vox Day crowd.


He exaggerated, he didn't lie. One of the themes of the story was Black Superheroes against Gentrification.

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Additionally, Meyer and Van Sciver talk about the maybe 25 stores that have closed over the past 9 months, while not pointing out that this would be about 1% of the 2500 to 3000 retailers Diamond currently serves; they exaggerate while not even knowing what the closure rates were in past years to establish a baseline, etc.


AFAIK several years ago (c. 2012-14) there were 6000+ retailers with Diamond and that is now under 2500.

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When you combine that with the fact that a small drop in sales definitely doesn't warrant the hysterical COMICS ARE DYING claims, their invention of conspiracy theories to ignore the sales trends of the last two fiscal quarters, etc., it's pretty clear that their entire movement is just a cynical marketing ploy to get right wing people to buy their comics as part of a silly savior movement against supposedly radical leftists.

If the Industry was as healthy as you suggest Marvel wouldn't need to release 10+ NEW #1 issues EVERY SINGLE MONTH.

If the Industry was as healthy as you suggest Marvel wouldn't be charging up to $5.99 for #1 issues.

If the Industry was as healthy as you suggest Marvel wouldn't need to be overshipping 50-100% on many of its titles.

If the Industry was as healthy as you suggest Marvel wouldn't need half a dozen or more variant covers on many of its titles (in particular #1 issues).

Yes Comicsgaters are exaggerating the death of the Industry BUT at the same time Marvel are exaggerating the vitality of the Industry. The truth is probably somewhere in between.

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That's a hypothetical, and I think you're being a bit rhetorically disingenuous, here. It's not just their use--it's how it's written.

I'll tell you what--if I put those pages up on a big bi-partisan political Facebook page I'm a part of whose members I'm sure know nothing about Comicsgate, and I take a poll asking them to guess the writer's political affiliation, do you really think at least 80% of the conservatives and liberals there wouldn't be able to guess Mike Miller is a Trump supporter?

Would you like to wager on it? Say, the winner gets to decide the other's profile pic and signature for a week? :)

What would that prove other than MS-13 are defended by the left leaning mainstream media and thus by default any portrayal of them as villains must be 'right wing'.

Again you dodged the actual question though.

Why is having MS-13 as villains in a comic a bad thing?

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Meyer has called homosexual creators fags and made plenty of transphobic comments. Come on, man.

He has certainly been rude to INDIVIDUAL creators who happened to be trans or gay, notably after those self-same creators themselves made comments attacking (for example) CIS people (Visaggio) or white people (Rivera) etc.

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What's wrong with the writing in that 20 page sample, other than hilarious misuse of Spanish food, stilted and awkward dialogue with bolding in all the wrong places, paper thin plotting, barely 1-dimensional characters, and failed 1-page comedy gags? Not to mention the really bad and lazy art.

Wow! That was Comicsgater levels of exaggeration right there...have you ever considered a career as a Youtuber?  :D

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I mean, him shitting on other writers for 500 hours of video only compounds the clowning he's been getting (you better write like Alan Moore and use an artist on J.H. Williams's level if you're going to be that much of a troll), but Meyer's pretty clearly substandard when compared against almost any of the writers he's been railing against for the past year or two except maybe the dud who wrote the America series.

So you are saying Meyer is at least better than one of Marvel's most heavily promoted and high profile writers. ;)

10
Marvel Zombies / Re: What has Aaron done?
« on: September 17, 2018, 08:27:04 PM »
Not to be pedantic, but again, using terms like “fleece” implies that Meyer is swindling his customers, or pulling a bait and switch. AFAIK, he isn’t. He’s being upfront about his price and product, and people are free to buy the stand-alone graphic novel. Is he being greedy? Maybe. But he’s not being dishonest. I have to wonder who the hell is buying the hundred dollar version, though. I agree with you that if I’m paying more than twenty dollars for a graphic novel, there should be something extra, like backup stories or bonus art. And even then, I’m not paying a hundred fucking dollars.

I agree with you on that.

Most Crowdfund comic campaigns ask for slightly more money than what you will typically pay in shops because there are a bunch of variables involved (such as potential smaller print runs costing more, shipping rates, packaging and so forth) and they don't want to be caught out.

Personally I think $25-30 for a 100+ page Graphic Novel is probably the standard rate on most of these crowdfunds. Any additions (t-shirts, posters etc.) are a way to support the campaign but still get something (hopefully cool) in return.

I remember a few years ago I had a bunch of separate individuals offer me money to simply start writing RPG material again (in a sort of Patreon type way) but I declined. So dedicated fans of something are often willing to give creators money simply to keep 'creating'.

To get back to comics, where I start to worry is when its $25 (or whatever) for only 50 pages or thereabouts. I think that might be a dangerous road to travel (long term anyway). Of course Marvel are selling 20 pages at $5.99 on some books now so its not a million miles away.

But if a standard 120-160 page Trade/Graphic Novel is $15-20 in the shops then a crowdfunded book going for $25-30 is totally fine by me.

11
Marvel Zombies / Re: What has Aaron done?
« on: September 17, 2018, 07:58:25 PM »
Aaaaactually, he's now selling a $100 version that's just the regular TPB with a t-shirt, a poster, and his very valuable signature. I'm not kidding.

Most of the other buyers paid 40 - 50 bucks for the book and a cheap poster that probably cost Meyer 10 cents to print, and 20 -25 bucks for just the book. A softcover book of that quality, mind you.

That's just sad.

(AFAIK) All profits from that second crowdfund on Iron Sights (selling off the remaining stock) went to LGBTQ Charity (the first $10,000) and the rest is going to Bill Messner Loebs.

12
Marvel Zombies / Re: What has Aaron done?
« on: September 17, 2018, 07:51:50 PM »
Well, Manafort just pleaded guilty to being a secret foreign agent of Putin's Ukrainian puppet leader, so let's agree on the general principle and disagree on your particular example. :)

Its been a day or so since I was following this but as I understand it he took a plea deal on tax fraud, I don't recall any confirmation of what you just said (did a quick Google and didn't see anything but I could be wrong any links?).

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The comic industry is a billion dollar business in North America, and most estimates put the buyer base in the 7-figure range--10 K Comicsgaters being 1% of all readers is actually me being generous by setting all buyers at a flat 1 million people between the direct market, the book market, digital, etc.

...and it made less money last year.

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Even if I cut 1 million readers in half (meaning 500,000 spending an average of $2000, which is very obviously wrong), that would still make Comicsgaters a whopping...2% of all readers.

Comicsgaters have a vastly inflated sense of their importance and buying power.

From my perspective Comicsgaters seem less concerned with the rest of the Industry than the rest of the Industry is concerned with Comicsgate.

Although I suppose given the review based nature of a channel like D&C you could argue he is making some sort of commentary on the Industry on a daily basis.

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I found it pretty badly argued and very low on facts, actually, which has been a trend with every Comicsgater essay or video I waste time on.

Aside from the fact that 538 already took apart his ludicrous "comic books have ALWAYS been diverse" claim with actual statistical analysis, his dual assertions that

(1) the modern minority characters he doesn't like were created *just* to be minorities, and
(2) the past minority characters he does like weren't created for their minority status

is completely ahistorical and wrong, on both counts.

Black Panther and Falcon were specifically created for their identities as minorities to promote a liberal pro-Civil Rights message, as was John Stewart. Len Wein has repeatedly said that they replaced the all-white original X-Men with characters of all nationalities and colors specifically to promote diversity and appeal to readers of different backgrounds beyond white Americans (can you imagine how the Comicsgater community would've reacted to that news if they'd been around back then  ;D).

Etc.


You forgot...replaced them with good characters, not to mention they didn't character assassinate the previous ones to push these new characters.

Better marketing, simple.

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So you're saying all it takes is marketing to turn CGers into hypocrites about their principles? Because almost anyone that follows him and CG in general should be aware that his only experience in comics were a few self-published failures over an 8 year period, and the writing samples he's released were outright horrible.


I'm saying that marketing is giving him an advantage on sales.

The same way Marvel put out 10+ #1's each month is a form of marketing.

We'll see whether Meyer has any writing chops within a few months and if he doesn't I am sure his future sales will diminish.

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Huh? It's the CG movement that makes a big deal of politics in comics--it's THEIR assertion.

Of course, what they really mean is they want no left wing politics and plenty of right wing politics--which is fine, but they look ridiculous trying to pretend otherwise.

Well if someone did want a mixture they wouldn't be getting much of that from the mainstream, which is all one way traffic.

I have never had a problem with creators politicizing titles THEY created because then those books stand (or fall) on their own merits.

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I caught that, too, and witnessed CG's (and EVS's) complete denial of things Meyer had obviously done, in almost cult-like fashion. EVS even continued spreading the lie that Mark Waid plotted to assault Meyer.

You know, Mark Waid, the out-of-shape, schlubby, 50 year old dork who's probably never thrown a punch in his adult life. This guy was obviously going to take on a much younger former Marine and trained killer--a man who actually has a rap sheet for kicking someone's ass.  ::)

Yet the tweet where Mark posted about wanting to confront Meyer at a Con was made public.

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Yeah, he's so low profile he made more than a quarter million crowdfunding Alt-Hero, and was the most financially successful CG creator before Meyer and Van Sciver (and is still #3).

I don't doubt that you didn't know him, but you're anecdotal experience doesn't outweigh his proven success and stature within CG circles before he stabbed everyone in the back (and he still gets plenty of support).

I had seen the Alt-Hero Q crowdfund but it doesn't say front and centre "Produced by Vox Day and here's something racist he said". So unless someone researched into it all they will likely just see Chuck Dixon attached.

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No, that was also his message in other outlets like PJMedia. Either way, I'm not sure how using white supremacist terminology against a black writer to court clicks excludes pandering to that crowd.

He knew exactly what he was doing, and doing so will of course invite those associations with CG. He's garbage.

I think you are blowing that out of proportion.

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You're misreading--CG claims that the comics industry is DYING (e.g. their "dying narrative"), and that's demonstrably false.

I agree that's their opinion and their spin would be:

1. Sales are down for 2017
2. Comic Stores are closing at a significant rate.

But I would agree that the flipside is:

1. Sales are not really down that much in fairness.
2. They may or may not be taking into account Digital sales.
3. Culturally the movies are doing great.

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No--I'm saying that when you write an MS-13 scene as if it were a Chick Tract for Donald Trump's immigration platform, you're injecting very obvious politics into your comic.


Its certainly topical (given recent coverage) but I fail to see what your problem with that page is UNLESS:

1. You think MS-13 should not be used as villains? I disagree.
2. You think using MS-13 as villains degrades/defames Latinos? Again I disagree since they do not represent all Latinos.

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Now, please be honest: If I were to show that 1 page to random people and

(1) ask them if it's political, 

(2) tell them to guess the author's politics

...do you really think more than 2 out of 10 people couldn't guess Mike Miller supports Trump from that obvious propaganda?

C'mon, man, let's not be disingenuous.

So if the (patriotic) hero beats up some MS-13 gang members in one issue and then beats up some (Neo?) Nazis in the next issue is that comic overtly favouring one political side over another?

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So then why should anyone take CG seriously, since the movement is already showing blatant hypocrisy about their own principles right out of the gate? You think "marketing" excuses that? Meyer is literally the right wing version of the "purse puppy" he's so often ranted against when it comes to minority creators.


What hypocrisy are you on about? That a book has MS-13 as villains*!?

*as well as Nazis apparently but lets not mention that.

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When all's said and done, the only consistency CG has shown is its antipathy to left wing politics; it's simply a political movement within the comic industry, with a history of trolling and a not-so-insignificant part of its base tied to outright racists and homophobes.
 
I disagree. The only person attached that has said anything racist or homophobic is (AFAIK) Vox who is a fringe opportunist.

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We don't have to--samples of Iron Sights are up.

https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/iron-sights-graphic-novel#/



That's legitimately substandard, embsrrassing stuff. CGers paid an average of $30+ for 100 pages of this garbage while complaining about supposed SJWs like Coates and Waid putting out far superior work.

What was wrong with the writing?

The art is substandard for a high profile mainstream title but not out of place for some titles.

13
Marvel Zombies / Re: What has Aaron done?
« on: September 13, 2018, 02:01:28 PM »
I disagree. The entire history of the internet has pretty conclusively you can easily get 1 out of every 10 people in any population to believe in the most ludicrous nonsense,

I agree, just look at the Russian collusion angle perpetuated by the mainstream media.

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and paying Comicsgaters make up a fraction of 1% of all North American comics readers.


Not sure about your figures there. 10,000 backers on a trade (equivalent to one of the best selling trades that month) with zero mainstream coverage and limited availability. I'm not going to guess at the percentage but its likely more than what you are stating.

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There are flat earth YouTube channels that have upwards of 100K supporters.

The fact that David Icke is a millionaire tells it all.

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Pretty much half of Comicsgate claims are easily disproven to be vast exaggerations at best, and the other half of their platform (politics, quality, experience) has been shown to be largely unimportant to them with alarming hypocrisy


I saw this article on Comicsgate a few days ago (you may find interesting):

https://bleedingfool.com/blogs/my-comicsgate-rebuttal-to-bill-sienkiewicz-other-comic-pros/

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(e.g. Meyer's work getting far more support than actually competent professionals like Chuck Dixon, almost none of them having writing experience and that being pretty clear in their work,


Better marketing, simple.

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all of the right wing propaganda in their titles...)

Like what?

...and even IF this is the case do you see the hypocrisy of the statement?

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The social media posting I've happened to catch from CGers over the last couple weeks shows otherwise, I think. They're pretty clearly in full denial and whitewashing mode about Meyer's history. They almost come off like cultists.

I caught EVS and Joe Quesada's twitter conversation where Joe wanted EVS to condemn Meyer because he had insulted Comics Professionals but EVS pointed out none of his fellow professionals came out to condemn the people who were calling him a Nazi for a year and hounded him out of DC.

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He was one of the most financially successful CG related figures before the trademark scandal, despite his obviously racist past. Van Sciver himself supported his publishing efforts despite having a problem with his brash personality and lack of experience, rooting for his success. Del Arroz and Dixon were (and still are) directly partnered with him, and all 3 still have plenty of support outside of the Van Sciver side of the business schism (they didn't have too much of a problem with Vox's racism before that, apparently).

That's a pretty ugly part of CG, and not an insignificant one.

Well it shows how low a profile he had previously been keeping if I had never heard of him.

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Like I said, Meyer verges on being a softer, milder version of Vox's approach--see him courting that audience with his ridiculous Black Panther and the Crew claims, where he even used the equally stupid "white genocide" concept--he knew exactly where the extra clicks would come from for advocating that POV.

We covered this, its just a click bait title.

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But most CGers are inextricably married to that DYING narrative, including all of its leaders, no matter how much the evidence shows otherwise. It's part of the snake oil act.

How is advocating for putting story (in comics) ahead of politics tying yourself to a dying narrative!?

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Take a quick look at Indiegogo; there's Trump's Space Force,


Comedy title.

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a title about Q-Anon, a title where the hero takes on community organizers who want to foment chaos,

Something from the Vox Day 'stable'.

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and Mike Miller's patriotic superhero book starts with a scene straight out of Breitbart propaganda:

I'll go check it out but I don't consider a Patriotic Superhero automatically 'far right'.

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I mean, look at this horribly written (but well drawn, granted) crap:

https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/lonestar-heart-of-the-hero--3#/

That MS-13 scene might as well have been written by Donald Trump himself.

For goodness sake he's punching Nazi's and Hitler on another page. You are not one of those folks who believes the only allowable villains are white nationalists are you?

Are you saying that using MS-13 (actual criminals) as villains makes the writer some sort of bigot?

...art does look cool.

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That's a pretty HUGE display of the movement's hypocrisy. They've spent more than a year going nuts over their conspiracy theories about inexperienced, supposedly talentless women and minorities being hired for their identities...

...and then they make Meyer, an inexperienced and clearly untalented* man with almost no experience other than a couple of failed indie ventures and cheap YouTube videos, CG's #1 creator by volume--because of his identity as a CG leader.

And of course there're a large fraction of CGers who will continue to buy Meyer's books even if they're bad, because for them it's more about the movement itself (and the politics) than it is about quality--

Meyer clearly has talent as a Youtuber and about 8 years dipping in and out of making comics. If his book is poor it will get bad reviews and sales for the next will drop.

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that's why Dixon's stuff doesn't earn as much as Meyer's.

It earns less because of Marketing. Meyer has his own channel for promotion. EVS has his own channel for promotion. No surprise they have the two best selling books.

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*Have you seen his scripting samples on Indiegogo and on his Patreon? This isn't my dislike of CG talking (I can admit Chuck Dixon has talent, and Mike Miller and Van Sciver can draw really well)--Meyer is very objectively a bad writer.

I saw the original issue Jawbreakers roasts on youtube - people ripped the hell out of it (very funny videos). I guess we'll see in a few months whether he has improved any since then.

14
Maximum Security - missed it

House of M - didn't read it (not a big X-men fan)

Annihilation - 8.5/10; brilliant book, best space battles I've seen in a comic.

Civil War - 9/10; not my favourite on this list (that would be WWH) but I recognize this as the 'BIG ONE' on this list. Does everything an event should. I remember being so hyped for that Issue #4 and the teased Thor return, bastards.

World War Hulk - 8/10; so much fun and the battle board stuff after was epic

Annihilation: Conquest - 4.5/10; poor man's Annihilation

Secret Invasion - 4/10; good idea, just never warmed to it, art was suitably creepy though.

War of Kings - missed it

Siege - 7/10; loved the art, would have liked a proper Thor vs. Sentry clash though. One of the better books from Bendis, notably shorter/less decompressed.

Fear Itself - I need to go back and read this again, can't remember the ending so I won't rate it

Shadowland - missed it

Messiah Complex - missed it

Chaos War - 6/10; big Herc fan and it was decent enough I suppose

Avengers vs. X-Men - 5/10; I liked the idea but not the execution, nice art though, FU Emma Frost.

Age of Ultron - 2/10; didn't do it for me

Infinity - have toyed with buying the trade but haven't pulled the trigger on that yet

Original Sin - 5/10; mixed feelings on this due to the whisper bullshit but it was an interesting book

15
Marvel Zombies / Re: What has Aaron done?
« on: September 08, 2018, 07:55:35 PM »
Oh and since Trump "speaking his mind" being a sign of masculinity I bring you this.
https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/trump-elton-john-696490/

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I have broken more Elton John records, he seems to have a lot of records. And I, by the way, I don’t have a musical instrument. I don’t have a guitar or an organ. No organ. Elton has an organ. And lots of other people helping. No we’ve broken a lot of records. We’ve broken virtually every record. Because you know, look I only need this space. They need much more room. For basketball, for hockey and all of the sports, they need a lot of room. We don’t need it. We have people in that space. So we break all of these records. Really we do it without like, the musical instruments. This is the only musical: the mouth. And hopefully the brain attached to the mouth. Right? The brain, more important than the mouth, is the brain. The brain is much more important.

Truly he is an Alpha with the best words.

LOL, Trump loves a good ramble, the rallies look like fun, I wonder what Obama would be like without a teleprompter...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2wS8B1Qp5kQ

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