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Messages - Upper_Krust

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Marvel Zombies / Re: What has Aaron done?
« on: Today at 11:22:43 AM »
You mean the joke cover mean to troll people who just seemed to hate Mockingbird having her own comic that had no real baring on the actual story itself?

I mean the joke cover meant to cover (no pun intended) that books horrible sales* due to the writer's political preaching within.

*By pointing the finger at everyone else while she played the victim card after she got criticism for the book.

I'm guessing you didn't read the comic. First, at that point they've been on one date and there hasn't been any implications they slept with each other. Second, Its her apartment and her bed. He's lost everything at this point which is pretty on course for a Spider-Man story. Third, he's wearing the shirt because he hasn't done his laundry and if you want to read into it Bobbi says "thats not a good look for you" which would imply him having a "feminist agenda" is exactly the wrong thing for him.

I did read the story and I understand how the writer set things up; the outcome of which was the further emasculation of Peter Parker.

How has Hawkeye been weakened physically?

The previous reviews of Hawkeye issues I've seen have Hawkeye (former leader of the Avengers AND Thunderbolts) act like an inexperienced, cowardly, (sitcom) butt of the joke character in total deferment to Kate Bishop (ie. the 20 y/o who is better at him at everything). Not only that but Hawkeye is drawn like an emaciated heroin addict who would lose an arm-wrestling contest to Aunt May.

Nazi Cap was always going to be a temporary thing and it took the universe being altered for it to happen. Then a cosmic being had to realize they were wrong and OG Cap was the best Cap. To me that reinforces the morals.

Except that the 'new' Cap is a COPY and not the original who now will forever be Hydra Cap.

Doom Iron Man is all about Victor realizing his own faults and looking towards Tony to find a new path because he always admired him. That again reinforces Iron Man's morals.

REPLACING a hero with a villain is giving us a LESS MORAL Interpretation of the original. That's not to say 'face turns' can't make for good books, but when they REPLACE heroes it dilutes what the original stood for.

Not seeing any of this. Human Torch and Spider-Man's personality haven't really changed and the only change in Iceman is he's gay. gay=/= effeminate.

I've seen issues where Human Torch and Spidey were getting on like Sitcom lovers.

They didn't "make them young" Those are young characters. Sam Nova exist because Jeph Loeb has issues with his son dying. Cho-Hulk is not Banner Hulk.

Exactly we were given:

- Young Cyclops - after they made Adult Hero Cyclops A VILLAIN AND KILLED HIM OFF.
- Young Cho-Hulk - who became the defacto male Hulk after they made Adult (sometime) Hero Hulk A POTENTIAL VILLAIN AND KILLED HIM OFF...oh and then his name was stolen by She-Hulk BECAUSE POLITICS.
- Young Nova - after Adult Nova Richard Ryder was KILLED OFF, brought back, subsequently made a threat (Cancerverse portal) then sidelined.

How do they handle this at DC? Well they create a NEW TITLE (such as the Chinese Superman or Green Lanterns) that doesn't REPLACE the existing Characters its based upon.

OML is part the 616 because people loved that story, OMH is an alternative timeline Hawkeye. OMCA was always going to be temporary. And all of them were still badasses.

Also the act of de-aging or making a a character older is an old trope. You might as well say Kingdom Come is all about emasculating Superman and Batman.

I don't have a problem with aging/de-aging characters in moderation and/or as alternate what if storylines. But it just so happened that at Marvel THESE BECAME THE DEFACTO REPRESENTATIONS REPLACING MULTIPLE CHARACTERS ALL AT THE SAME TIME.

Kingdom Come (an alternate future mini-series) didn't REPLACE Superman or Batman.

But we have seen Cap, Tony, Hulk, Thor, Hawkeye, Wolverine, Cyclops, Nova (and others I'm probably forgetting) all replaced at the same time. Some replaced with women, some with older versions, some with younger versions.

Marvel Zombies / Re: What has Aaron done?
« on: Today at 10:20:06 AM »
I don't get where you're getting this whole sitcom thing from.

Current Marvel comics.

My guess is this is the (House) style they have settled on they best think caters to women while not completely alienating all men. Its no stakes, low T, maximum quippage and 'sitcom-speak'.

Comics have been like that more so than the the gritty Punisher stuff or the 90s extreme era.

I disagree. Contemporary Marvel seems to be sliding into a style that tries to mimic the movies BUT fails to understand that the humour is only one element to those movies.

Just look at JLI, Young Justice, Early Captain Marvel (Shazam), super dickery, The Avengers hanging out with David Letterman, anytime there is an issue where it's just the characters playing football, baseball, poker, etc.

I'm not saying there has never been comics with light-hearted moments, issues or styles. Nor am I saying all comics; even from Marvel, are heading down that road (current Hulk and Cap for instance are playing it straight). But what I am seeing is an overload of this sitcom-style in a large percentage of books including (but not limited to) virtually every female lead superhero title Marvel puts out. If its almost every female lead and say (for the sake of argument) half the male leads then its by far the dominant style of the Marvel Comics Universe.

Marvel Zombies / Re: What has Aaron done?
« on: August 16, 2018, 02:16:30 PM »
Hey guys,

My Internet was wonky for a day there, fine now thankfully.

I'll get to these replies tomorrow (busy tonight), great discussion.

DC Drones / Death of Superman animated movie
« on: August 16, 2018, 02:10:27 PM »
So I bought this a few days ago after hearing good things about it and I have to admit I thought it was great and had one of the best portrayals of Superman I'd ever seen.

Has anyone else watched the movie and if so what did you think?

Looking forward to the well set up sequel.

If I was nitpicking I'd say:

- They didn't have Doomsday start with one arm tied behind his back, which was always a great aspect to him defeating the League.
- Doomsday beating the full and proper League implies they are all a bunch of weaklings compared to Superman (though they sort of stagger this by having a few Leaguers show up at a time).
- Batman's mini-grenades destroy more of Doomsday's costume than Flash hitting Doomsday at super-speed multiple times with Hawkman's Mace.

Marvel Zombies / Re: What has Aaron done?
« on: August 14, 2018, 11:52:51 AM »
Yeah, that's the entire crux of this debate--if women are very nearly into superhero movies as much as men are, why are superhero comics any different?

You theorized that it was the medium, but manga sales clearly contradict that; now you're making genre arguments again when the movies already contradicted that.

My argument is that women are not as interested in the (Male) Power Fantasy theme (almost always with a strong physical component) that is the backbone of the Superhero Genre.

Just as men are not as interested in Romance Novels. Of course the Feminist Left has no interest in getting more men into Romance novels, whereas any male-dominated pastime MUST be infiltrated and ruined (with Leftist politics).

You've gotta back that up, though, especially since the demographic information so far clearly contradicts your assertions. Then you'd have to confirm that women don't usually prefer other other ways to consume media, anyway (like streaming services, in which case you'd then have to analyze demographics there).

I agree that is pure theory without empirical data to back it up. BUT I'd be willing to bet you agree with me that most superhero dvd/blu-ray sales are made by males.

Let me ask you this...how many women do yo see on comic book forums? The answer is FEW if any. Yes bigger sites may have a few more but it is a TINY percentage of people on those forums.

But you originally made a pop psychology argument about women and the medium itself. Since manga clearly refutes that, you're relying on arguing the genre itself.

I made the argument differentiating between Western Superhero Comics and Manga.
I also made an argument differentiating between being primarily visually led and language led.

If we want to make a list of the differences between Manga and Western Comics I'm sure we could arrive at some reasons for why its more palatable to women.

For instance its less realistically drawn, its often more 'cutesy'...just like Jason Aaron's current Thor.

No offense, but this is a very bad argument that's unsubstantiated by actual psychology, pop culture consumption, and even the example you used.

(1) re: 50 shades, sexual fantasies do not equal life fantasies

(2) Even if they did, you realize that male sub web sites and videos outnumber male dom ones, right (porn being the biggest indicator of that tendency by sheer volume of consumption, of course)? Even in pop culture, there are endless examples of the dominant female archetype; hell, in comics, Claremont became the most popular writer in comics sublimating that fetish in his plotting and character dynamics.

(3) But, there is a difference, hence it's a cliche that many of the most sexually submissive men/women also happen to be dominant in other aspects of life. From what I hear, it even ends up playing that way in 50 Shades.

(4) All of that aside, the superhero fantasy is driven partly by the desire to overcome challenges, transcend one's own limitations, validate that you're better than what others may think of oneself (the typical secret identity dynamic), and action.

If you think those aren't things that women fantasize about, or impulses women aren't driven by, then I'll simply suggest that you read more peer reviewed psychology papers and surveys about female desires/fantasies/etc.,

I think you (and Marvel) are deluding yourself into thinking women are EVER going to be as interested in comics as men. Marvel targeting half their line towards women might bring in a few more transigent female readers, but it will lose more male readers than it gains.

or simply talk to more women about this stuff.

One girlfriend is enough. ;)

I took her to see Deadpool 2 recently (she'd never seen a Superhero movie before*) and she loved it. Hasn't prompted her to start buying comics and dvds though.

*Most women just aren't that interested in that.  ::)

Naruto, Bleach, etc. have substantial female audiences (almost 50% female on average).

What about Berserk, One Punch Man or Fist of the North Star?

I don't know enough about Naruto or Bleach (I have watched a few random episodes of Bleach) to comment on especially why those are popular among girls? Perhaps because characters are younger, less masculine, less violent than those I mentioned (and again this part is speculation).

Dude, season 1 of Jessica Jones is just as dark and serious as DD, and it has a huge female audience.

Yes and its completely marketed and written as a Psychological Drama, not an action-packed Superhero show.

Women (in my experience) LOVE that sort of show. But if you try and do that as a comic book in the Marvel Comics Universe it just comes off as 'cartoonish'.

Your assertions above about the cause of those tropes is completely unsubstantiated.

I don't think so. Most men and women don't prefer the same things or the same stories.

If I list: Action, Romance, Sports, Fashion, Cars and Soap Opera Melodrama you can easily identify which ones men are more interested in and which for women.

Occasionally we see some things that overlap: Horror, Mystery/Thrillers, Humour etc.

But Superhero Comics exist primarily (but not exclusively) in the Action genre. Abandoning or diluting that component of the genre will only weaken it until it becomes unrecognizable.

I do agree in general, however, that Western comics obviously have to diversify the genres that arw offered.

The problem is how do you do that with a shared Universe without radically changing the whole thing because the tone of one comic impacts on the others - even before we take crossovers into account? Manga doesn't have the burden of a shared Universe.

The greatest strength of the MCU (the Shared Universe) in this case becomes the biggest weakness of the comics in regard telling stories primarily targeted towards women. In the past comics tackled this by creating A SEPARATE UNIVERSE or a separate or distinct LINE of comics.

The MCU is different from the Netflix MU which is different to the Marvel Comics.

With Marvel comics now sliding inexorably into the Sitcom Style parody of itself it might find some vanilla middle ground, but its clearly not even picking up enough female readers to compensate for the haemorrhaging of male readers.

Marvel Zombies / Re: What has Aaron done?
« on: August 14, 2018, 10:36:01 AM »
No prob.

The writing has some problems, but Bachalo is pretty much one of the only artists post-1966 to really capture at least some of the weird, abstract spirit of Ditko's style while still being unique--at least in the ongoing series. Even in the best Strange runs, the art has been way too conventional (and mostly mediocre and boring).

Agreed. I think the art in a Doctor Strange book is probably more important than in other titles.

In order: Not really*, nope, elaborate on what you mean, and sure.

*There've been female versions of heroes,

...All of whom take on the NAME of the Male hero even if they already have their own identity.

but I haven't encountered long term replacements outside of Thor and Iron Man (and, in the latter's case, Doctor Doom also replaced Tony

Doom is a villain...another minor trope in the pursuit of 'deconstructing'* male heroes is either:

- weaken them physically (Thor, Hawkeye)
- weaken them morally (Nazi Captain America, Doom Iron Man, Unworthy Thor)
- make them effeminate (Iceman, Human Torch, Spider-man, Hercules)
- make them young; and thus not yet men (Cyclops, Nova, Cho-Hulk)
- make them old; and thus past their prime (Old Man Logan, Old Man Hawkeye, Old Man Captain America)

*Code for unmaking

in addition to Riri (while clearly suoerior to her), and Riri has been aided and mentored by the Tony Stark AI).

RiRi was said to be smarter than Tony (while demonstrably being a bit of an idiot).

I also use "long term" loosely, since it's clear in both cases that the storylines were always meant to be finite (e.g. Jane's cancer from the spoilers I've read, Tony's coma and healing process--the plan with Riri is clearly to spin her off similar to War Machine [who'd also replaced Tony for awhile], Winter Soldier, and so on).

I'm personally not concerned by the growing number of female heroes, simply the treatment of the male ones and the forced political preaching.

A female Thor (name aside) could have been a comic I'd happily have gotten behind. But the execution of it was just a complete turn off from every angle.

That's out of roughly 75 ongoing titles being published, and god knows how many mini series and one shots.

A quick tally of Marvel's monthly books (on Comichron) shows they have approx. 30 different hero or team books before taking into account Star Wars, Events and Duplicates.

..oh and 7 out of Marvel's top 8 selling books in July were #1 issues...and the other book in the top 8 was a #2. How's that for longevity.  :o


type Marvel into the search parameter

Except a lot of those supposed cuts are either non-existent or massive overreactions to already existing character faults, traits, or tropes that have nothing to do with emasculation.

In the grand scheme of things, it's all very minor.

Whether we agree or disagree as to how minor this all is; sales are in decline and forced political preaching within the comics is a big factor in that (in my opinion - you may disagree on that? ).

The absolute worst of it started slowly ending 50 years ago, but in terms of societal change and consequences, 5 decades really isn't that long when it comes to cultural memory (for reference, just review the entirety of human history*).

5 Decades certainly isn't that long when you are looking for an excuse to play the victim.

What's more, that's only the worst of it--if I use the standards these Comicsgaters use to nitpick and complain about male representation, women still had it worse than men even through the 90's than men have it now (i bet nitpicked examples for women would outnumber present-day male nitpicks at least 5 to 1).

Was there hyper-sexualization in the 90s - yes there was.

1. Was that one of the most profitable eras in comics - almost certainly (for a few reasons)
2. How many Cosplay girls dress up as these portrayals of characters - quite a lot

*And, based on history, of course there are going to be militant subgroups within feminist and minority movements as a consequence of what happened to older generations that are still alive to remember it, even though they're a fraction of those overall movements.

I agree and you could argue that equality of opportunity having been achieved decades ago, modern (3rd wave) Feminism is a self-serving irrelevance at this point.

There was no social media back then--apples and oranges as far as lynch mob fan bases go.

But my point was that the EDGY Leftist creators you mentioned were EMBRACED by the industry in the 80s DESPITE the pro-Republican bias of the Mainstream of the day. The opposite is happening today to Right Leaning Creators.

Plenty of left wing creators across all creative industries get hounded in the present, however.

In today's industry seemingly the further Left you lean the more work you get, even if you have shown zero ability to sell books.

That's all opinion and beside the point, which is that more openly trollish and extreme right wingers like Van Sciver were getting plenty of work during the 2007 - 2018 period when Dixon was pretending to be a conservative martyr.

I don't know exactly how 'extreme' their politics are? Does voting for Trump make you an 'extremist' now? Are there 60 million extremists in America today?

You've moved the goal posts now, though--there's a difference between social media outrage mobs (which amount to what--two hundred people?) and editorial blacklisting. Chaykin ans Campbell still get mainstream work despite whatever controversies Twitter got temporarily mad about.

Brandon Graham wasn't hounded because of his politics--he has a trans-woman fetish and was accused of weird and abusive behavior toward them in the past. Wherever that ends up landing, that's a far cry from what you're talking about.

Left leaning Social media outrage mobs (many of whom have other comic pro's as cheerleaders and followers) influence editorial decisions.

Don't know about Delay, but if he's like the other examples then none of this proves a mass movement to get rid of "classical liberal" creators.

I think he followed D&C on twitter (or something like that) and posted on twitter words to the effect "I've watched a bunch of his videos and he doesn't appear to be the sexist, racist, bigot people make him out to be." Then the SJWs came for him.

Can you name at least one example that even compares to the Roger Stern one?

Ethan Van Sciver

Marvel Zombies / Re: What has Aaron done?
« on: August 13, 2018, 07:35:47 PM »
I'll go point by point there later today, but you have some SERIOUS history revision going on regarding Donald Trump. Holy shit

I'll be here. Enjoying this discussion. :)

Marvel Zombies / Re: What has Aaron done?
« on: August 13, 2018, 07:34:29 PM »
But that precisely proves my point.

--Superhero movies have proven that women and girls can love the genre and make up 40 - 45% of its audience (and growing--it's been an upward trend). That's almost a 1:1 ratio vs males.

...and I'm sure the ratio of Cosplay women (many who seem to like to dress up as the sexy girls from the 90's comics we earlier spoke about) to men is even higher than 1:1, probably 9:1.

BUT that doesn't translate into superhero comic book sales and while the box office demographics show women like going to see superhero movies I'd wager the sales of superhero dvds/blu-rays are HEAVILY skewed in favour of men.

--Manga has proven that women and girls can love the medium of comics, in droves (the 30% figure, as you pointed out, included the direct market and superheroes; the share is larger if focusing only on manga, and probably close to Marvel movie demographics).

Manga (more often than not) doesn't tell the same stories as Western Superhero Comics.

Given the above, it seems weird to argue that it's natural for women to make up such a tiny slice of the superhero comics pie on its own merits/qualities, without historical and cultural prejudices and pressures coming into it.

I disagree. I don't think you are taking into account the backbone of the Western superhero genre which is one of the 'Male Power Fantasy'.

Most Women do not share the same fantasy; in fact the biggest female fantasy is THE OPPOSITE of the male power fantasy. ie. Something like 50 Shades.

The Manga that women prefer does not cater to the Male Power Fantasy. Manga that does cater to the Male Power Fantasy is not any Manga women typically enjoy.

So we arrive at a problem, and its the same problem Western Comics hasn't yet solved.

Question: How do we write comics that appeal to both men and women?

Answer: You can't without massively diluting the things men and women like in the first place. Manga solves this by having different Manga appeal to different genders, but with a shared Universe an inconsistent tone can be problematic.

We see this in most Marvel comics today:

1. (Serious) Action is generally downplayed because women are more risk averse, although the badass Mary Sue will usually win in one hit.
2. There's often a goofy 'SITCOM Style' (which again softens any violence) and comedic tone to the books. The outcome is that the stakes don't matter...and on the rare instance that they do, writers can just return characters back to life next issue.
3. An overload of emotional validation of heroes - especially any female heroes.
4. A ridiculous amount of instances with characters eating - typically in books penned by female authors.

I'd also say there's something of a disconnect between the MCU movies and something like the Netflix Daredevil. Note how the MCU has moved into a more light-hearted, quip-heavy style, whereas Daredevil is far more serious. One is like a sitcom, the other like a serious drama.

Marvel Zombies / Re: What has Aaron done?
« on: August 13, 2018, 06:37:48 PM »
It really sounds like you have no clue what a cuck even is.

Its an overused term (I'll give you that) but I think its more used as an inference on weakness/spinelessness and general lack of masculinity than meant to be taken at its literal meaning. In that respect its interchangeable with soyboy.

I actually think that's a great example. I rolled my eyes when I saw that. There are plenty of examples of men running shit into the ground in real life and in comics, but that was lame.

It was doubly lame given the majesty of Asgard and wise rulership of Odin (until Fraction and Aaron chose to cast him as a mysogynistic, murdering tyrant).

Trump has conclusively proven that an overly emotional,

Stands up for himself = overly emotional?

largely incompetent person

Successful multi-billionaire property tycoon and award winning show creator WHOM EVERYBODY LOVED until he ran on a Republican ticket = largely incompetent?

can be elected to the highest office in the land.

By running on a platform of Jobs (he delivered), Tax Cuts (he delivered), Security (partially delivered with Congress temporarily blocking the Wall), Fair Trade with other countries (he's delivering) and giving Americans back some pride in their country (he's delivering...big league).

People wanting to get rid of his brand of pretend masculinity will increase, not decrease.

Multi-Billionaire who (allegedly sleeps with Porn Stars; Playboy Models and) marries a Supermodel = pretend masculinity?

We're going to see it across all entertainment mediums.

I agree because 95%+ of the Entertainment Industry is run by either the Left or the Mega Corps Elites who all hate Trump.

The problem for them is support for the mainstream media is declining, overall Hollywood box office is declining year on year, Self-congratulating Award show viewing figures are declining, NFL viewing figures after Take a Knee have declined AND YES comic book sales are declining.

People are getting fed up with the Left's Preach-laden Entertainment and tuning out.

Seeing a few lame lines doesn't support the idea of an agenda.

How many lines will?

What about "Ask me about my Feminist Agenda?"
What about (a cucked) Spidey wearing an "Ask me about my Feminist Agenda" t-shirt...while sleeping on the couch as his 'girl' gets the bed?
What about Jean Grey berating Angel for saving her life because she doesn't want a man to save her?

That is a good example though.

Glad we finally found a small slice of common ground.

Marvel Zombies / Re: What has Aaron done?
« on: August 13, 2018, 12:43:18 PM »
I just noticed this response. I did read the comic. It was an issue of Dr. Strange written by Cates where Strange's ghost dog makes a big deal about meeting a real hero (Spider-Man) even though he met the Avengers and lives with Strange. Spidey then gives Strange a pep talk to get back in the game which is exactly what Strange needed. All very emasculating.

But yeah the art sucked.

That's the one, it certainly wasn't Marvel's finest hour.

Part of the problem I have with that issue and many other stories is how 'sitcom' everything is written now and when you write a story like everything's a joke then everything IS A JOKE. I see this with the new Thor comic as well, previous She-Hulk, Hawkeye, Spider-man, Captain Marvel, Ms Marvel, Avengers etc.

Maybe Marvel's answer to bringing in more female readers is to write comics in this annoying sitcom style, but it just kills any gravitas and seriousness.

Fortunately the recent Hulk doesn't do this; maybe that's why there is more positivity around it.

Marvel Zombies / Re: What has Aaron done?
« on: August 13, 2018, 12:25:50 PM »
Actual examples? Not "___ was a soyboy in this comic I didn't read! ___ was totally cucked out in another!"

If a character is demonstrably portrayed as a cuck in a book does that not count if I cite the issue?

You specifically said there are hundreds of examples, industry-wide. You are the one who made this assertion.

Absolutely...and sales are collapsing because of it.

Unless you instantly forget all the things you learn,

I honestly do have a bad short term memory but if I start writing things down I'll have a nice list for you.  ;)

you should have at least 30 examples OFF THE TOP OF YOUR HEAD. This would only require you to retain roughly 10% of what you've learned. That's far below the threshold of even the average comic reader; AND this info is fresh in your mind.

I probably could rattle off close to 30 in the Thor comic alone but give me an example of something you consider "worthy" (no pun intended).

For instance if I say forced Political Preaching is one of the biggest problems ruining comics and then say:

- Aaron had one of the Asgardians scream "Death to the Patriarchy" does that count as one example or do you dismiss that out of hand.

Marvel Zombies / Re: What has Aaron done?
« on: August 13, 2018, 12:16:06 PM »
Bashing a shitty president isn't some new idea either.

Trump has been a great President (US Economy is booming, Employment is great), the Left just won't publicly admit it because the only narrative they have is Personal Attacks which are just water off a duck's back to Teflon Trump.

Englehart had Nixon leading a Hydra offshoot called The Secret Empire.

I agree with you that this thing has happened occasionally throughout the decades.

But we've never seen any President get the abuse that Trump gets. The (Left leaning) Comic Industry fell over itself to kiss Obama's butt, now it goes out of its way to vilify Trump. Personally I don't care about the Trump bashing when its done in a light-hearted way (there was a great joke in a Marvel comic a few months ago where they compared Trump to the Thing and something along the lines of "We've already got one orange monster...") but when its so relentless and also veers into attacking Republicans it just becomes political PREACHING...and that's the big turn off.

Comics have always been political good or bad going way back to WWII where Cap came in strong punching Hitler or Superman telling us to "slap a jap"

Two examples during wartime.

ICT / Re: Superman vs Mr. Sinister, Vector, Ulik and Omega Red
« on: August 13, 2018, 11:24:31 AM »
Can the villains take him down?

Easily. Ulik (w. Pounders) almost solos Superman by himself.

Ulik DMG 100 (133 w. Pounders), HP 400, DUR 50
Supes 133, HP 533, DUR 33

Supes w. clear Speed Advantage, Ulik arguably with the Skill advantage but lets call it even FWIW.

R1. Supes deals 83 (317 remaining for Ulik)
R1. Ulik deals 100 (433 left for Supes)
R2. S deals 83 (234)
R2. U deals 100 (333 left)
R3. S deals 83 (151)
R3. U deals 100 (233)
Fast healing: Ulik regains 6 (157), Supes regains 8 (241)
R4. S deals 83 (74 remaining for Ulik)
R4. U deals 100 (141 left for Supes)
R5. S deals 83 (Suggested KO for Supes over Ulik in Round 5)

So with Ulik going mano-a-mano with Supes the rest would have a free hand to do some damage. If Omega Red (as some suggest) weakens Superman then Ulik crushes the Boy Scout.

Marvel Zombies / Re: What has Aaron done?
« on: August 12, 2018, 01:39:42 PM »
I've read his Strange, and "emasculating the main male hero while simultaneously elevating a Mary Sue over him " is definitely not a trope in the title.

Yes my mistake, I got confused with the recent Cates run after someone earlier in the thread poo-poo'ed Aaron's Strange.

The run did deal with Strange being depowered, but that was already a recurrent cliche for the character for decades before Aaron ever thought about writing him, and is in no way evidence of some kind of man hating conspiracy. Aaron's narration reiterated variations of "Strange is the best sorcerer" so many times you'd think Jim Shooter was writing the captions, and he repeatrdly overcame challenges despite his current limitations (which is the point of the trope, of course, lazy or not).

Reviews of it seem solid, can't fault the covers, would probably be something I'd buy if I wasn't on a Marvel boycott until Aaron's off Thor.

Now, if you want to talk about its continuity problems and lazy plotting, I'll be more than sympathetic.


Marvel publishes about 75 ongoing titles on a monthly basis. While I'm behind on Thor, I've managed to read a hell of a lot of titles without encountering this supposedly pervasive phenomenon. The only other example I can think of that comes close is Falcon/Cap, but that was clearly meant to be a temporary Bucky style story, and Steve certainly wasn't disrespected.

Is replacing heroes with female knock-offs but still retaining the name something you have encountered of late? What about the emasculation of male heroes? Or the masculation of female heroines? Or Trump bashing?

If your concrete examples don't amount to more than a handful of titles (or, worse, just storylines), than this theory comes off as seriously lacking credibility.

I keep making the analogy of 'Death By 1000 Cuts' that I think is a good one for the current situation.

And, it certainly pales in comparison to the much more egregious, widespread, editorially enshrined sexism and racism faced during the nadir of female/minority representation.

Which was a long time ago.

Er, sometimes that's true, and sometimes it isn't. All of the ultra left wing, hotshot British writers over the last few decades made their bones in American comics injecting plenty of politics into their work right through the present (*especially* their creator owned work, but even in mainstream titles--see Ennis, Ellis, Morrison, Moore, etc.).

The difference between then and now (in my opinion) is that the Mainstream Media is now almost exclusively left-wing. Back in the 80's it was primarily right-wing so Alan Moore (and others) were the anti-establishment 'Punk Rock' of comics. Note of course that they weren't hounded out because of their political beliefs though.

That seems like a logicial explanation, except the dry up of Big Two work Dixon has been whining about for the last decade happened in 2007/2008,

I don't know enough about Chuck Dixon and what work he's been getting but I'd hazard a guess (based on his past work) he's a better comic writer than many currently working in the industry including well known perennial 'victims' who keep getting titles thrown at them despite continually terrible sales.

and there's no way in hell Van Sciver signed a *10 year* exclusive contract that sustained him until last month--he had to have had at least 1 to 2 renewals in the meantime.

I don't know what his exact situation is. I know his contract ended a few months ago and he had been getting smeared as a 'Nazi' for over a year prior to that, but I can't say when the last time he renewed his contract - perhaps that was only a few years ago.

What's more, even that long ago, Van Sciver was far more trollish and provocative about his politics than Dixon ever was, so if that's how Big Two editorial operated, he'd've been let go long ago.

...except he wasn't hounded out and smeared as a Nazi because he was a troll; that all happened because he voted Republican.

Give me examples of classical liberal or centrist creators being chased out of the industry, unfairly, specifically because of their views.

I can give examples of them being hounded by the left for various transgressions (I don't know if they are altogether 'out' ):

Howard Chaykin, Donal Delay, J. Scott Campbell, Brandon Graham.

There's definitely not a comfortable home for enthusiastic Trump supporters in the Big Two, but even you concede that Trumpism is an extreme movement within American politics that is only loosely related to what was the conservative norm.

I agree that politics is more polarized than ever right now and in the Comics Industry that is controlled by the Left we see anything or anyone supporting Trump is demonized and smeared (so as to later justify crimes against them*).

*As per Jeremy Hambly of the Quartering Youtube Channel - who was attacked at Gencon.

Sorry, but characterizing an explicit editorial mandate to either exclude female characters, or write them as inferior to men, as "some prejudice" is an absurd understatement, especially when it's part of Senate testimony where absolutely none of the 100+ people on the floor raised any concerns about how cartoonishly sexist this was.

I agree but you acknowledge that was 60 years ago.

That's how screwed up things were at the time--that situation is virtually impossible to imagine now in either direction, and right-wing conspiracists would absolutely lose their minds with glee if there was such an explicitly clear-cut, extreme, and company-wide decree in the public record that was anti-man/anti-white.

It doesn't need a company wide decree because today you have trial by social media. Marvel (and the Comics Industry in general) is seemingly only a place now for Leftists.

Slowly, in the late 60's with the coming of young writers like Englehart, the tides startes to shift, but that was on a case by case basis depending on the writer, though every decade was better than the last (except for maybe the pornification of female characters in the early 90's, which was pretty bad).

Don't see a lot of Cosplay Girls complaining.  ;D

Of course the 90's being the last time individual comics were selling in the millions.  ::)

But, even in the 80's, Roger Stern--the platonic ideal for apolitical amd centrist A-list writers--was virtually blacklisted from Marvel because he didn't want to be forced to write the black female version of Captain Marvel as incompetent, which was completely out of character.

Now that's an interesting story. I always liked Monica.

I repeat, he didn't just object to her being replaced as leader of the Avengers, but that they wanted him to specifically portray her badly. When he pointed out that, even by his apolitical standards, such a sudden out of character de-evolution of one of like 3 major female black characters they had would be sexist at best, and probably worse than just sexist, he was immediately fired from Avengers without a single discussion, and given no new work by almost every other editor despite his exclusive contract.

Roger f$^#^g Stern.

I'll do a search on this after I post here. I wonder what their reasoning was given Storm was leading X-Men at roughly the same time. Playing Devil's Advocate here for a second I wonder if they didn't want both of their major teams led at the same time by extremely competent badass black women.

So, yeah, compared to stuff like that and the rest of comics history, the current complaints about comparatively minor SJW trends in comics comes off as pretty whiny and, quite frankly, weak. It doesn't really amount to too much when all's said and done.

The difference being that was one complaint almost 40 years ago that amounted to nothing (unless you are Roger Stern).

Most of the rest of the thread is addressed by most of the above, and this is already getting really long, so I'll cut off here for now. I'll address the demographic stuff later on.

Good discussion, thanks for the reply.

Marvel Zombies / Re: What has Aaron done?
« on: August 12, 2018, 12:19:37 PM »
And how can something "span hundreds of issues" but you can't think of more examples than Jane Thor, Carol not always being drawn by Cho or the Dodsons, and the dumbass soyboy stuff?

Its not like I have been keeping a list of 'issues' so I can copy and paste it upon request...and we both know that would be pointless anyhow since any number of points will either get dismissed as irrelevant or insubstantial (as with the above points).

Just for shits and giggles though; how many examples would I have to post to make you admit maybe Comicsgater's have a point?

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