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Messages - The Shuruku Demon

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1
ICT / Re: Tony Stark with a month of prep vs Wonder Woman
« on: December 31, 2018, 09:51:00 PM »
What's unreasonable about using a prepped Doom's loss to Thor to extrapolate how Tony would've fared under that writer?

This thread has nothing to do with Doom or Thor.  How is that not computing with you?  If this were a comparison between Doom and Tony, I'd understand.  If it were about tony vs Thor, I'd understand.  Instead, it's about unrelated characters with different traits, abilities, powers, and motivations.

Premise: Doom is similar enough to Tony for us to use his loss to Thor as a rough guide for how Tony would've fared in his place.

If we accept the above premise, it follows that a prepped Doom losing to Thor suggests a prepped Tony would've lost as well, which is hardly irrelevant to this thread.

If we reject the above premise, then Doom's loss to Thor is not a good indicator that Tony would also have lost, and in that case the Doom/Thor fight would indeed be irrelevant to this thread.

Crucially, you've refused to either accept or reject the above premise. You're trying to handwave the whole issue away without clarifying your position on that point, and that's an intellectual sleight-of-hand I'm apt to call you out on.

I went back and checked shadowknight's initial response to you, and his point was that Diana's speed would be a huge problem for Tony since she's faster and stronger than Spider-Man, who's given Tony "fits".

If you considered Tony's record against Spider-Man irrelevant, especially in cases where Tony didn't have prep, you could've said so right away and declined to go into any fights where Tony didn't have prep. Instead though, you did into the non-prep fights, essentially arguing that Peter didn't actually do all that great against Tony. Then I came along and produced an example of Peter beating Tony cleanly and decisively, and all of a sudden that's irrelevant and I'm in the wrong for bringing up a non-prep fight, even though I was responding to a post where you the exact same thing.

Shadowknight even hinting that Spider-Man has historically been too much for Tony is already a bit silly (even when taking into account the one showing you posted in which Peter had a bit of an advantage).  And since this thread is about Tony with prep, it's an even sillier statement.  Shadowknight's entire point was silly.  Granted, I could have just left it at Tony's prep-win over Peter but it's still important to note that Peter's speed has never really factored in to their fights nearly as much as he was pretending.

I don't know that shadowknight meant to say that Peter has historically been too much for Tony. But even if you take the position that Tony has historically looked like the favourite (which is my stance), the fact that Peter has a clean win over him, and managed to knock him around pretty much every time they've fought, suggests that Diana could potentially wreck Tony under normal circumstances.

It goes without saying that we need to factor in Tony's prep window, but the fact that Tony has prep here doesn't necessarily make the default stat differential between him and Diana meaningless. It all depends on the nature of his prep, and whether things go to plan or not. Over the course of 10 battles, we could very well see some scenarios where Tony's prep fails, and he gets beat down due to said stat deficit.

I'm not sure why you're defending it so vehemently.  Even Shadowknight abandoned that point (and this thread), so why do you care so much?

I don't care all that much about the actual thread topic, but once I start a debate I usually like to reach some sort of resolution if I can spare the time. My motivation to finish a debate also goes up when someone tries to misrepresent my positions, or otherwise use intellectually dishonest tactics, as you've been doing.

You were trying to use that unreasonable question to demonstrate that my question (requesting examples of Tony using nanotech) was also unreasonable.

I'm glad you figured that out.  I was seriously wondering if you didn't.

I've noticed you have a tendency to misread and seemingly misunderstand my arguments. Not sure if it's a failure to effectively communicate on my part, or one in reading comprehension on yours. Could be a bit of both.

But I just explained why my question actually does have a bearing on the wider argument.

But it was.  There is little difference in your question and mine.  They are both kind of ridiculous.  Obviously, just because Diana has never fought a prepped armor user, it does not mean she couldn't beat one.  Additionally, just because Tony has never beaten a top-tier character with nanites while using prep (that I knwo of anyway), it does not mean he is incapable of it.

Determining what Tony is likely to do on a regular or semi-regular basis, and what he's only likely to do on rare occasions isn't ridiculous. Not even close. And that's been the whole thrust of my line of argumentation regarding the nanites.

I haven't suggested that Tony would never use nanites.

Good.  We're all square then.

We seem to be more or less on the same page regarding the nanites (i.e. that there's something like a 1/10 chance of it being used successfully), but you haven't justified how else Tony is likely to beat Diana, at least not with evidence.

You've also dodged some key points, like the fact that Tony's loss to Spider-Man -- despite your protests about it's irrelevancy -- is ironically more relevant to this thread than the Iron Man/Sentry fight you repeatedly brought up.

2
ICT / Re: Tony Stark with a month of prep vs Wonder Woman
« on: December 31, 2018, 04:29:33 PM »
We can reasonably extrapolate how Tony w/ prep would perform by looking at how Doom w/ prep performed, especially in an example where Doom w/ prep was actually defeated. You're being evasive by refusing to acknowledge this; you said yourself that "Doom tends to be better at prep".

No.

What's unreasonable about using a prepped Doom's loss to Thor to extrapolate how Tony would've fared under that writer?

Yes, but I wasn't using that fight to show how Tony would perform with prep, I was responding to the exchange you were having with shadowknight regarding Tony's track record against Peter in general. This fight strenghens shadowknight's position and weakens yours, and you're again being evasive if you refuse to acknowledge that.

Shadowknight's point was about Tony failing to defeat someone like Spider-Man, even using prep.  I proved him wrong by showing that tony used prep to beat Spider-Man.  You have been random ever since.

I went back and checked shadowknight's initial response to you, and his point was that Diana's speed would be a huge problem for Tony since she's faster and stronger than Spider-Man, who's given Tony "fits".

If you considered Tony's record against Spider-Man irrelevant, especially in cases where Tony didn't have prep, you could've said so right away and declined to go into any fights where Tony didn't have prep. Instead though, you did into the non-prep fights, essentially arguing that Peter didn't actually do all that great against Tony. Then I came along and produced an example of Peter beating Tony cleanly and decisively, and all of a sudden that's irrelevant and I'm in the wrong for bringing up a non-prep fight, even though I was responding to a post where you the exact same thing.

WTF, AP. WTF.

Just to show that I'm not being as evasive as you, I'll answer this question, and the answer is I don't know of an example of Diana specifically defeating a power armour user who had prep on her. But what does my concession prove regarding what is in character or out of character for Diana? Nothing.

You're missing my point.  The question was rhetorical.  I would never ask such a ridiculous question with any amount of sincerity.

You were trying to use that unreasonable question to demonstrate that my question (requesting examples of Tony using nanotech) was also unreasonable. But I just explained why my question actually does have a bearing on the wider argument.

Now let's examine my question to you in a similar light. You suggested that Tony could use nanites against Diana, and I agreed that he could ("certainly"), but questioned whether there was any evidence that he likely would. So far in this thread, only one instance of Tony using nanites against an opponent has been cited, which suggests there's a low probability that Tony would use this tactic in practice.

In other words, my point has a direct bearing on what is in character for Tony, while your point has no bearing on what is in character for either Tony or Diana.

It's obviously within Tony's character to use nanites.  He has used nanites before.  It's not like I mentioned Tony building something crazy like his own Infinity Gauntlet or doing something he wouldn't normally do like nuke a city to stop WW.

I haven't suggested that Tony would never use nanites. I've simply questioned how likely he is to use it, and use it successfully. If you were arguing that Tony would only win a minority against Diana, and cited nanotech as one of his possible avenues to victory, I wouldn't have pressed you any further on that point, since I agree that Tony could potentially use nanites to get a win or two. The reason I've pressed you to show precedent for Tony using nanites is because you argued that Tony would take a majority against Diana. So either you need to demonstrate that Tony is liable to use nanites on a semi-regular basis, or you need to come up with some other explanations for how Tony can win in order to justify that position (and support those alternative scenarios with corroborating evidence, as per my initial request).

There are various ways Tony could beat Diana in theory, but since you suggested that Tony with a month of prep would take a majority against Diana, I'm asking you how you think he'd achieve that in practice, with citations of him doing similar things from canon. If you want to clarify that your argument was purely theoretical, i.e. what Tony COULD do rather than what he WOULD do, then I'm happy to leave it there, since I was primarily attempting to debate what actually would happen. But if your argument is that Tony with these stips WOULD take a majority against Diana in practice, then I'm asking you to substantiate how that would come about with corroborating evidence.

Of course it's all theoretical.  The entire concept of battleboards is based on what would theoretically happen if these battles took place.

No shit. I never questioned that, so let's not oversimplify my arguments or resort to straw men, please.

As to whether or not Tony using nanites could happen, I think the canon is obvious:

1) Tony uses nanites.

2) Tony uses prep.

3) Tony has defeated top tier characters before.

Ergo, those three things happening in concert has a chance of happening. at least 1/10 times.  The other 5-6/10 times I see Tony winning would probably involve other means of prep which I have alluded to in this conversation.

Again, I'm not making any sort of insane claims.  I am talking about what we've seen him capable of doing in continuity as well as something that has caused Diana's defeat in at least one story.  Keep in mind, I wouldn't say that Tony would build a time machine and trap Wonder Woman in the past because I can only think of two instances in which Tony had any sort of experience with time machines and even then he wasn't quite working alone.

Please don't resort to straw men, or otherwise exaggerate what I've actually said. I haven't accused you of making any insane claims. Nor have I denied that Tony is capable of using nanites and that he might get at least 1 win out of 10 with them. What I have argued is that the odds of him successfully beating Diana with nanites seem relatively low, and that since you've asserted that Tony would take a majority against Diana, this leaves a shortfall in your position. I've already invited you to go over the other ways you think Tony would win, with corroborating evidence. If you have such evidence, please go ahead and post it.

As to moving the goal posts, where have I done this?

First you asked what Tony could do.  I brought up the nanites.  You could have conceded that that particular plan might work.  Instead, you started in with the "Oh yeah, well how often did he use ninites... with prep... against a top-tier.... with boobs... who is also named Diana.... who..."  That is moving the goal posts.

This is a misrepresentation of the initial challenge I made to you or anyone else who believes Tony is the favourite in this thread, so I'll repost my exact words below for the record:

http://herochat.com/index.php?topic=20125.msg384936#msg384936

"For anyone who thinks Tony with a month of prep is the favourite, how do you think he'd go about beating Diana for a majority? And does your scenario have any precedence in canon?"

The word "he'd", which I've emboldened there, is obviously a shortened form of "he would", i.e. how would Tony go about beating Diana for a majority, as distinct from how could he go about it. I wanted to know first and foremost what Tony's most likely avenues to victory are.

If we go back to my first two posts in the thread (which I'm also reposting below, for the record) -- both of which were made within an hour of eachother, before anyone had responded to me -- I drew a clear-cut line between how Tony could theoretically deal with Diana on paper, and how he'd be likely to tackle her in practice, emphasising that I was primarily focused on what he'd do in practice.

http://herochat.com/index.php?topic=20125.msg384868#msg384868

"I'd still make Diana the favourite in most scenarios, since she doesn't really have any exploitable weaknesses for Tony to capitalise on. Sure, she's vulnerable to bullets & blades, but it's not Tony's style to use either of those things, and she's got the bracelets to defend with anyway (I assume the ricochet from Superman's chest caught her off-guard). Superman would ironically be easier to prep for, since he does have the kind of weaknesses that Tony would be likely to exploit.

Slight caveat here is that the Thorbuster armour Tony used against King Thor might have a shot at beating Diana, but Tony used a mystic jewel given to him by Thor to help make that, so it wasn't solely his own work."



http://herochat.com/index.php?topic=20125.msg384871#msg384871

"There are ways Tony could beat Diana on paper that wouldn't even require a full month of prep. He could for example rig multiple armours with stealth tech and War Machine style ballistic weapons, and remotely control these armours to fire at Diana from all sides while screwing her hearing up with a constant barrage of sonics. Tony could easily set that up in under a week, but this is a CBR style scenario that wouldn't see print in a comic."


So no, I didn't merely ask you how Tony "could" win, and have been very consistent all the way through the thread in focusing primarily on what he would likely do. In no way, shape or form is this an example of me "moving the goalposts".

It's actually you who's moved the goal posts, by initially showing a willingness to account for Tony's record against Peter in general, and then suddenly playing the off-topic card when I brought up examples that didn't fit the picture you were attempting to paint.

This thread is about Tony using prep.  Pointing out fights where prep is not in use is off-topic by definition.

But if you want, I will go ahead and say that out of the five times Peter has gone up against Tony, he managed to look good one time.  That doesn't prove much but there you go.

I'd say Peter has looked reasonably good against Tony in almost all their fights. He's admittedly looked like the underdog in most of them, but he's repeatedly proved capable of knocking Tony around and dodging his attacks, specifically damaging Tony's armour in two of their fights. And he did so with much less strength and speed than Diana has at her disposal.

I should clarify that, in my view, shadowknight and fangirl are overstating the likelihood of Diana actually speedblitzing Tony; she might be capable of that on paper, but I don't see it happening regularly if ever in practice. But even though I don't see Diana fighting like a speedster per se, I think her speed edge over Peter is relevant, and her massive strength edge even moreso. If Peter can routinely knock Tony around and dodge his attacks, specifically damaging his armour in roughly one third of their fights, and outright disabling it in one sixth of them, it can be reasonably be argued that Diana would be a pretty hellish opponent for standard Tony in close quarters combat.

Of course, we need to factor in that Tony has prep in this thread, as you've been at great pains to point out. But just because Tony has prep, it doesn't mean the normal stat differential between him and Diana is immaterial. In my mind, there's quite a high probability of Tony building some type of Wonderbuster armour, meaning he'd be coming to the fight with better-than-normal stats. However, there's precedent (against King Thor) for a buster armour being ripped apart, forcing Tony to fall back on his standard armour, which he was wearing beneath the buster add-on.

Also, there's no guarantee that Tony will build a buster armour for every fight here. He may simply add some new modification (such as a nanite delivery system) to his standard armour, in which case the usual stat differential between him and Diana would be relevant from the outset.

So not only are you being extremely hypocritical in objecting to me bring up non-prep fights between Tony and Peter when you did the exact same thing beforehand, but you're just plain wrong to suggest they have no bearing on this thread whatsoever.

One final point: you've repeatedly cited Tony beating Sentry, without prep. Are you referring to the fight they had in IRON MAN Vol 4 #10-11 (the conclusion of which I've posted below, along with a link to the fight in its entirety)? Because as is evident from the scans I've posted, Tony exploited a technological vulnerability that was very specific to Sentry. In other words, this option, or any variation of it, simply wouldn't be on the table against Diana, and consequently his win over Sentry actually has less relevance to this thread than his clean and decisive loss to Spider-Man.

https://readcomiconline.to/Comic/Iron-Man-2005/Issue-10?id=19764#19




3
ICT / Re: Tony Stark with a month of prep vs Wonder Woman
« on: December 31, 2018, 04:27:56 PM »
Sure you can, as matter of fact, sure you have.

Not true. I do occasionally say what I think a character is theoretically capable of, as I did in this thread, where I proposed a scenario for how Tony could beat Diana on paper (using stealth tech, sonics and ballistic weapons). But I made it very clear that I was outlining a scenario that would not see print in a comic. That is to say, because Tony almost certainly wouldn't use the tactics I proposed, even though he's fully capable of doing so.

Goes back to what i said about walking a fine line, and what AP said about moving goal posts.

In what sense did I move the goal posts?

No offense meant by anything i’ve said here; you’re a good debater (better than me for sure), but you’re better when you dont have a set agenda.

That agenda being?

You’re stubborn, i’ll give you that.

Are you done addressing my actual points then? Because I have nothing further to say to you if you just want to exchange personal remarks.

4
ICT / Re: Tony Stark with a month of prep vs Wonder Woman
« on: December 31, 2018, 04:23:56 PM »
Since this has been brought up a few times, that time Tony fought World War Hulk in his
Hulkbuster armor, the suit was **SUPPOSED** to have nanites within it to counter Hulk.

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/D4rCCMwwM0FImXxUBt906y1dTTpHMkV9kf_VTYQ7h7x_0F3x20snf5PMQN3Dpo1_8e1TdEpIgVBQ=s1600

However, the nanites WEREN'T in the armor. They were taken out by Hardball.
https://2.bp.blogspot.com/Q9t29XO6YDpci0LL-pjIYxF3BJ-peTlzj8X_MxZm1D7XHnhQzR7s-KNQAuvuTn3YUh4fzOlOJXLE=s1600
https://2.bp.blogspot.com/zQo54_mueeivMuVXi2POvs88Y9cCd4_1t8vR6Xl3Z1KNT2ZNML5DbQJp6M6e_ND0TsoSnisKaQ4D=s1600
https://2.bp.blogspot.com/e9FdF7rCL3ZdM5H4N4Xt5J7BU9kKAh-8gQN93B1CJLiNpsJNU0sVj-5eoJF8Da6FyLoogDNS0xz8=s1600
https://2.bp.blogspot.com/7i8a_ql-gl6mX2HuijyxGNlb4JKSGyEyOaUZn072mpF3Ndt7SA0mGCRhjmIXN2KZyZPKxlpxyjMT=s1600

So that explains why the nanites didn't work.

You appear to be correct here. However, your post prompted me to do more research on this nanite tech, and I've uncovered a few pertinent details that haven't been raised as yet (I'm going into detail below, with scans, but skip to the end if you want the short version).

1) This specific nanite tech is officially named S.P.I.N. (Super Power Inhibiting Nanotech) -- an extrapolation of the tech used in inhibitor collars -- and was the fruit of something called Project Achilles.

2) Tony states that he designed the tech in one of your scans (from AVENGERS: THE INITIATIVE #4), however Project Achilles was conducted within the S.H.I.E.L.D. Hellicarrier, and is clearly a collaboration between Tony and S.H.I.E.L.D.. In another scene, Tony says "we've been perfecting it on Hulk level threats", and in other scenes we see S.H.I.E.L.D. technicians working on and discussing the project in Tony's absence. Hank Pym is also shown to be part of this project. One more thing to note here is that S.H.I.E.L.D. had some difficulty getting S.P.I.N. to work on the Wendigo, due to it's mystical nature (although they eventually conducted a successful test on it), and apparently couldn't get it to work on Toad Men, due to their alien physiology.
Scans: [1], [2], [3], [4], [5]

3) Tony has used S.P.I.N. on two occasions, during both of which he was working in direct collaboration with S.H.I.E.L.D.. The first time, he used it successfully against She-Hulk, depowering her, and the second time unsuccessfully against WWH, although it appears the dart he used on Bruce was stolen by Hardball and replaced with a blank. Both instances where Tony used S.P.I.N. happened within a 3-month window in 2007, in and around the WWH storyline. Neither Tony nor anyone else appears to have used the original version of S.P.I.N. since then. The last apparent use of Tony/S.H.I.E.L.D.'s version of S.P.I.N. was in AVENGERS: THE INITIATIVE #4, published in September 2007.

4) Upgraded versions of S.P.I.N., developed by other people, have appeared since 2007. In AVENGERS: THE INITIATIVE #22-23 in 2009, Hardball -- working on behalf of Hydra -- uses a new version of S.P.I.N., and states that the original version required a sample of a target's DNA in order to work on them, whereas Hydra made an improved version that would work on anyone.
Scans: [1], [2], [3]

5) In AVENGERS ACADEMY #34-37, a villain called Alchemist uses another upgraded variation of S.P.I.N., which he calls Clean Slate. He notes that S.P.I.N. "had to be tailor-made for the target" and "had a high failure rate", whereas Clean Slate will work on anyone by reading the DNA of the target, finding the code for when they were normal, then reverting them to that state. And if the target was never normal, Clean Slate would use a baseline human genome as a guide. However, Alchemist says Clean Slate probably won't work on "non-humans like Thor". It's also shown and stated that Clean Slate doesn't work on characters whose powers are magical in nature, like Reptil. This story was published in 2012, and marked the last reference within a Marvel publication to any version of S.P.I.N..
Scans: [1], [2], [3], [4], [5]


Short version of the above:

A) Tony developed S.P.I.N. (Super Power Inhibiting Nanotech) in conjunction with S.H.I.E.L.D., and has only ever used it in conjunction with S.H.I.E.L.D.. Neither have used it since the WWH storyline in 2007, which may have something to do with its "high failure rate".

B) S.P.I.N. darts apparently had to be coded with the target's DNA in order to be effective, and Tony will not have Diana's DNA starting out.

C) S.P.I.N. and it's variations seemed to have issues with magic, and Diana is, of course, very magical.

D) S.P.I.N. and it's variations seemed to have issues with non-humans in general, and were only proven to work on characters whose base DNA was human. Diana isn't and never has been human.

5
ICT / Re: Tony Stark with a month of prep vs Wonder Woman
« on: December 30, 2018, 04:38:53 PM »
Factoring in CIS (Character Induced Stupidity) goes hand-in-hand with debating a character in-character. You cannot do the latter without the former.

Sure you can, as matter of fact, sure you have.

Not true. I do occasionally say what I think a character is theoretically capable of, as I did in this thread, where I proposed a scenario for how Tony could beat Diana on paper (using stealth tech, sonics and ballistic weapons). But I made it very clear that I was outlining a scenario that would not see print in a comic. That is to say, because Tony almost certainly wouldn't use the tactics I proposed, even though he's fully capable of doing so.

Goes back to what i said about walking a fine line, and what AP said about moving goal posts.

In what sense did I move the goal posts?

No offense meant by anything i’ve said here; you’re a good debater (better than me for sure), but you’re better when you dont have a set agenda.

That agenda being?

6
ICT / Re: Tony Stark with a month of prep vs Wonder Woman
« on: December 30, 2018, 12:59:24 PM »
This thread started meandering, so i opted out, but

Quote
I'm asking if there is precedent of Wonder Woman beating armored prep users.

There’s already mentioned precedent (Tower of Babel) of WW, and the whole JLA losing to a prepped character.
That cant be ignored.

It couldn't be ignored if we were discussing Batman with prep versus Diana. But Batman's method of incapacitating Diana (which I'm posting scans of below) was based on his intimate knowledge of her as someone who's worked alongside her for years, plus his skill as a psychoanalyst. Tony is not equally skilled at psychoanalysis, nor will he be privy to as much info on Diana as Bruce had access to, much of it through first-hand observation.

One of the key plot points from Tower of Babel that you and AP are apparently overlooking is that although Bruce designed this protocol to be used against Diana, he wasn't the one that used it. Ra's Al Ghul hacked Bruce's files on those protocols, and he was the one that implemented their use. In other words, a character as intelligent and resource-rich as Ra's Al Ghul couldn't achieve this on his own, despite the fact that he (unlike Tony) lives in the same universe as Diana. He had to steal and then implement the plans of someone who knew Diana better than he did.








Prep especially one sided, is a powerful advantage.
As far as all the stories Shuruku is citing, well, fights on this forum dont hinge on pis/cis, or the need to advance a narrative, and he knows that.

Just the way he’s approached this (‘how would Tony do it’ then switching to ‘well give me examples of Tony doing it in continuity’) shows he’s not going to budge on this. And thats fine, we all have set opinions, but he shouldnt pretend this is a failing on Tony’s part.
We debate based on a character’s known powers/skills/abilities, and all but the worst of us do so while keeping the opponents in character.
CBR (where everyone is blood lusted and willing to kill) has nothing to do w. this.
Tony obviously has the resources and mental acumen to put WW down, in this scenario.

Factoring in CIS (Character Induced Stupidity) goes hand-in-hand with debating a character in-character. You cannot do the latter without the former.

7
ICT / Re: Tony Stark with a month of prep vs Wonder Woman
« on: December 30, 2018, 12:52:15 PM »
Do you think an author who wrote Doom with prep losing to Thor would have written Tony with prep winning?

The "New Topic" button is at the top and bottom of the main page of this forum.

We can reasonably extrapolate how Tony w/ prep would perform by looking at how Doom w/ prep performed, especially in an example where Doom w/ prep was actually defeated. You're being evasive by refusing to acknowledge this; you said yourself that "Doom tends to be better at prep".

It was standard Peter (with amnesia) versus standard Tony, no prep for either

Okay, so Tony did not have prep.

Yes, but I wasn't using that fight to show how Tony would perform with prep, I was responding to the exchange you were having with shadowknight regarding Tony's track record against Peter in general. This fight strenghens shadowknight's position and weakens yours, and you're again being evasive if you refuse to acknowledge that.

That's not a valid flipping of the script, since I didn't limit you to establishing that Tony had beaten a top-tier with nanites. What I initially asked anyone who considers Tony with a month of prep the favourite against Diana is how they saw that coming about, and whether there was any precedent for said scenario. You chose to bring up Diana being defeated in Tower of Babel, via a nanite fired into her ear canal, which is why we're now discussing nanites specifically. But if you don't consider that Tony's only route to victory, or the most probable one, then I'd like to go over the alternatives. Preferably, we should start with whatever scenario you think has the highest probability of occurring.

You're asking if there is precedent of Tony using nanite in prep to beat a top tier.  I'm asking if there is precedent of Wonder Woman beating armored prep users.

Just to show that I'm not being as evasive as you, I'll answer this question, and the answer is I don't know of an example of Diana specifically defeating a power armour user who had prep on her. But what does my concession prove regarding what is in character or out of character for Diana? Nothing.

Now let's examine my question to you in a similar light. You suggested that Tony could use nanites against Diana, and I agreed that he could ("certainly"), but questioned whether there was any evidence that he likely would. So far in this thread, only one instance of Tony using nanites against an opponent has been cited, which suggests there's a low probability that Tony would use this tactic in practice.

In other words, my point has a direct bearing on what is in character for Tony, while your point has no bearing on what is in character for either Tony or Diana.

As for averages, you know as well as I do that the 10/10 system refers to a number of different outcomes.  In some scenarios, Tony could, say, use a device to trap wonder woman in the Negative Zone.  Another scenario might be to construct use nanites.  Another scenario might involve seducing and poisoning her.  There are many different ways Tony could potentially beat her.  And yes, in some circumstances, she might just over power Tony anyway and beat him.

There are various ways Tony could beat Diana in theory, but since you suggested that Tony with a month of prep would take a majority against Diana, I'm asking you how you think he'd achieve that in practice, with citations of him doing similar things from canon. If you want to clarify that your argument was purely theoretical, i.e. what Tony COULD do rather than what he WOULD do, then I'm happy to leave it there, since I was primarily attempting to debate what actually would happen. But if your argument is that Tony with these stips WOULD take a majority against Diana in practice, then I'm asking you to substantiate how that would come about with corroborating evidence.

Yeah, he tends to needle in on things that don't have any relevance or moves the goal posts a lot.

To the extent that I've brought up points that aren't directly relevant to the thread topic, like how Tony without prep has fared against Spider-Man, I was merely following the logic of points you were attempting to make yourself. You cited two example of Tony without prep fighting Peter, and I cited two more, so I only went off-topic to the same extent you did, which makes you a blatant hypocrite here.

As to moving the goal posts, where have I done this? It's actually you who's moved the goal posts, by initially showing a willingness to account for Tony's record against Peter in general, and then suddenly playing the off-topic card when I brought up examples that didn't fit the picture you were attempting to paint.

8
ICT / Re: Tony Stark with a month of prep vs Wonder Woman
« on: December 29, 2018, 11:09:18 PM »
You specifically said Tony did beat Thor in the Thorbuster armour. Me pointing out that he has no such win on his resume is not a nitpick to be brushed aside. Might Tony have beaten standard Thor in that armour? Quite possibly, but that armour was destroyed, and Tony isn't capable of reproducing it on his own since it utilised an Odin-powered jewel given to him by Thor.

Fair enough.  I concede that point.

Acknowledged.

Thor is comparable to Wonder Woman, and Doom is comparable to Iron Man

I suggest making a Doom vs Thor thread if you want to talk about these characters.

Do you think an author who wrote Doom with prep losing to Thor would have written Tony with prep winning?

Are the two fights you brought up any more relevant than the two fights I mentioned?

Shadowknight suggested Tony could not beat someone as fast as Spider-Man with prep and mentioned Peter had previously "given him fits".  I pointed out that Tony has in fact beaten Spidey with prep and that, at least the fights I'm aware of, did not involve Tony having "fits".

In one of the fights you mentioned, Peter was wearing an armor of his own, so its was not standard Spidey.  In the other, I'm still wondering if you're referring to Iron Man 2020 as that's the only fight I know of where Peter tore into an Iron Man's armor and the closest he ever came to a solid win against Tony.  If that's not the case, did Tony have prep?  Was it standard Peter Parker?

It was standard Peter (with amnesia) versus standard Tony, no prep for either. I'm just posting scans of the last few pages, but you can view the full fight at the link below.

https://readcomiconline.to/Comic/Amazing-Spider-Man-Who-Am-I/Full-Part-1?id=90021#130







Tony obviously is capable of using nanites; that's what I was acknowledging with the word "certainly". What I'm asking you for is any precedent for Tony using nanites to beat a top-tier. If there's no precedent for it, it's hard for for me to buy it suddenly being his go-to tactic for a majority of fights.

I never said it was his "go to tactic for a majority of fights".  I brought it up as a tactic he has the ability to use, especially after prepping for Wonder Woman specifically.  Additionally, if we are going to needle Tony for not specifically using nanites as prep to beat a top-tier, we can flip the script and point out that Wonder Woman has never beaten a genius with power armor and prep.

That's not a valid flipping of the script, since I didn't limit you to establishing that Tony had beaten a top-tier with nanites. What I initially asked anyone who considers Tony with a month of prep the favourite against Diana is how they saw that coming about, and whether there was any precedent for said scenario. You chose to bring up Diana being defeated in Tower of Babel, via a nanite fired into her ear canal, which is why we're now discussing nanites specifically. But if you don't consider that Tony's only route to victory, or the most probable one, then I'd like to go over the alternatives. Preferably, we should start with whatever scenario you think has the highest probability of occurring.

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ICT / Re: Tony Stark with a month of prep vs Wonder Woman
« on: December 29, 2018, 10:52:51 PM »
IIRC, Ironman used nanites with adamantium Spike to attack WWH.
Nanites specifically designed to his healing factor against him or somesuch thing.  Been a long time since I read the story and I don't feel like confirming all those details.  Just a thought

I checked, and yes, Tony did mention that he injected WWH with nanites designed to suppress his powers. Of course, Tony wound up losing that fight, but it does establish that he's used a tactic like this on at least one occasion in the past, and since Diana's healing isn't on par with WWH's to my knowledge, it could well have more success against her than it did against Bruce.

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ICT / Re: Tony Stark with a month of prep vs Wonder Woman
« on: December 29, 2018, 07:20:18 PM »
He did? Maybe we're thinking of two different fights, but in the story I saw, Tony took on King Thor in the Thorbuster armour and managed to give him a tussle, but Thor eventually smashed the Thorbuster armour to pieces. Also, Tony used an Odin-powered jewel to help make that armour, so it's not something he could reproduce on his own.

Thor was also a skyfather at the moment.  My point being that Tony can whip up an armor that could conceivably defeat a "normal" Thor.

You specifically said Tony did beat Thor in the Thorbuster armour. Me pointing out that he has no such win on his resume is not a nitpick to be brushed aside. Might Tony have beaten standard Thor in that armour? Quite possibly, but that armour was destroyed, and Tony isn't capable of reproducing it on his own since it utilised an Odin-powered jewel given to him by Thor.

Doom with prep lost to Thor though.

Is this thread about Dr Doom vs Thor all of a sudden?

Thor is comparable to Wonder Woman, and Doom is comparable to Iron Man. Doom also used an Iron Man style tactic, creating what amounted to his own Thorbuster armour.

There's also a third time, where Peter took his armour apart and could've killed him. And a fourth time, which was an even fight between Tony in his Bleeding Edge armour and Peter in his Spider Armor Mk IV. Those were non-prep though. Tony with one-sided prep is obviously an overwhelming favourite against Peter.

I highlighted the only truly relevant part of your statement here.

Are the two fights you brought up any more relevant than the two fights I mentioned?

Certainly, but what Batman would do and what Tony would do aren't necessarily one and the same, so is there precedent for Tony himself beating a top-tier using nanites?

Are you saying Tony is incapable of using nanites?  Especially if he's likely researching past attacks that have caused a great deal of harm to Wonder Woman?

Tony obviously is capable of using nanites; that's what I was acknowledging with the word "certainly". What I'm asking you for is any precedent for Tony using nanites to beat a top-tier. If there's no precedent for it, it's hard for for me to buy it suddenly being his go-to tactic for a majority of fights.

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ICT / Re: Tony Stark with a month of prep vs Wonder Woman
« on: December 29, 2018, 06:23:54 PM »
You’re walking a fine line there, considering every character is debated just the way Tony is right now (extrapolation, conjecture, set precedents...), by everyone here, including yourself.

But hey, its your line to walk.

It's the line that separates this place from CBR. At CBR, they basically just debate power sets, disregarding a character's normal modus operandi. Here, the default tendency is to factor in a both a character's abilities and their M.O., determining what they WOULD most likely do, rather than simply what they COULD do.

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ICT / Re: Tony Stark with a month of prep vs Wonder Woman
« on: December 29, 2018, 06:07:30 PM »
For anyone who thinks Tony with a month of prep is the favourite, how do you think he'd go about beating Diana for a majority? And does your scenario have any precedence in canon?

Why would he need to win the majority to get a decisive win that humiliates his opponent?

You're conflating two different arguments. I'm specifically challenging anyone who thinks Tony would take a majority to substantiate that with evidence. As far as I can tell, that isn't the position you're taking, therefore the challenge is not directed at you.

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ICT / Re: Tony Stark with a month of prep vs Wonder Woman
« on: December 29, 2018, 06:05:05 PM »
His Thorbuster Armor defeated Thor.

He did? Maybe we're thinking of two different fights, but in the story I saw, Tony took on King Thor in the Thorbuster armour and managed to give him a tussle, but Thor eventually smashed the Thorbuster armour to pieces. Also, Tony used an Odin-powered jewel to help make that armour, so it's not something he could reproduce on his own.

As for Doom, they have stalemated when ti comes to planning against one another.  Doom tends to be better at prep which is not embarrassing.

Doom with prep lost to Thor though.

Tony used prep to beat Spidey once, actually.  The only time Peter "gave him fits" were in battles that happened on the fly.  The first time, Peter knocked tony around just enough to escape.  The second time, Peter managed to web Tony up but Tony tore through the webs after they had a little talk.  Not a good idea to bring up Spider-Man.

There's also a third time, where Peter took his armour apart and could've killed him. And a fourth time, which was an even fight between Tony in his Bleeding Edge armour and Peter in his Spider Armor Mk IV. Those were non-prep though. Tony with one-sided prep is obviously an overwhelming favourite against Peter.

For anyone who thinks Tony with a month of prep is the favourite, how do you think he'd go about beating Diana for a majority? And does your scenario have any precedence in canon?

IIRC, in Tower of Babel, the protocol against Wonder Woman involved nanite tech which Tony is capable of using.

Certainly, but what Batman would do and what Tony would do aren't necessarily one and the same, so is there precedent for Tony himself beating a top-tier using nanites?

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ICT / Re: Tony Stark with a month of prep vs Wonder Woman
« on: December 29, 2018, 06:01:16 PM »
He’d send a remote controlled suit of armor to distract her, then shoot her from a distance.

Precedence...:

The answer to the above question in this case, is Tony Stark.

Just because Tony could do something, it doesn't mean he will. That's why I asked for precedent, to help establish what's actually in-character for Tony. Because of that, it really needs to be precedent from Tony's canon, not Diana's. We all agree Diana is vulnerable to bullets, so that's not a point that needs evidencing.

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ICT / Re: Tony Stark with a month of prep vs Wonder Woman
« on: December 29, 2018, 04:48:28 PM »
For anyone who thinks Tony with a month of prep is the favourite, how do you think he'd go about beating Diana for a majority? And does your scenario have any precedence in canon?

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