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Messages - The Shuruku Demon

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1
ICT / Re: Sabertooth vs Spiderman.
« on: Today at 12:35:51 AM »
Yeah, those are the only two fights they've had in canon. There was another fight they had in one of those Drake's Cake mini-comics, which I assume is non-canon.

The first fight took place at a time when Creed didn't appear to have a healing factor, and hadn't yet been pushed as an arch villain worthy of Wolverine.

And if you read the dialogue in the second fight, Spidey and Punisher actually hindered eachother's efforts there. You might think having a partner would help, but it's not always the case. Characters are often more impressive alone than when they're operating as part of a team. Hand ninja effect et al.

If Spidey and Creed were to have a one-on-one fight now, I think it'd most likely be somewhere between those two showings, rather than a duplication of either one.

2
ICT / Re: Deathstroke vs Fandral The Dashing
« on: Today at 12:19:05 AM »
Sure, I agree that Taskmaster doesn't seem as impressive as his power suggests he should be. But we arrive at that conclusion on the basis of the defeats he's suffered. We don't just assume it, like you seem to be doing with Fandral.

Well, with Fandral, it's more of a matter of never being tested, but the outcome is the same.  They are two characters with reps that they've never earned.

Has Taskmaster ever been stated to be unsurpassed as a fighter?

And I agree that Fandral being an unsurpassed swordsman within Asgard doesn't necessarily make him unsurpassed on Earth as well. But it's a noteworthy distinction, something to be given due consideration when comparing him to Earth's finest swordsmen.

It's something to take note of, but I would never base my entire argument on it.

And you think I'm doing that?

And we shouldn't assume the "centuries of experience" thing will always be ignored. It often is, but it wasn't when Slade fough Ra's.

The difference being that we see evidence of Ra's skill in the various fights he's had against Batman.

Have Ra's and Batman actually had a swordfight?

Even if I grant you that Ra's has better skill showings that Fandral in general, you're still not on the same page with the author of the Ra's/Slade fight, because he clearly put stock in a character having centuries of experience, while you dismissed that as meaningless.

There is a feat on the table, in the form of him at least matching Taskmaster. It isn't outright proof that Fandral is a better swordsman than Slade, but it is pretty decent evidence against him being inferior, since Taskmaster's sword skills are based on those of the Black Knight, who is arguably Marvel Earth's finest swordsman.

And see, we go back to what Taskmaster SHOULD be versus what he is.  It's just like when clones of various characters are not as powerful as the original.  Or when one person mimics the powers of another but doesn't quite match up.  Comics are like that and you know it.

They often are; not always. It's hard to be sure what level Taskmaster was supposed to be at there, since he's pretty inconsistent, but I'm inclined to think he was nearer the top end of his range than the bottom, since he was one of the leading characters in that book, and not a villain-of-the-month turning up to take a loss.

It might be lesser in number, but that doesn't make it lesser in quality, which is the most important thing. Who has Deathstroke matched or beaten in a swordfight, that is at least as good a swordsman as Taskmaster?

I would absolutely say beating GA and BC combined in a sword duel is better than beating Taskmaster.  If those were the only fights we would have to go on, Deathstroke comes out much better imo.

Beating GA and BC is clearly a better feat of overall formidability, but it's not necessarily a better feat of swordsmanship, since only GA and Slade were wielding swords, and I don't know any reason to put GA on or above Taskmaster's level as a swordsman.

Even if it were a better feat of pure swordsmanship, it's one showing amongst a range of showings Slade has, which therefore needs to be averaged with the rest of them. And we shouldn't be so simplistic as to conclude that whoever has the single most impressive feat is necessarily the guy who'd prove to be better in a head-to-head fight. Head-to-head fights often contradict the result you'd draw from feat comparisons.

How would you compare Slade and Ra's in general combat feats?

It sounds like you're saying that Slade needs to employ more skill against street levellers than Fandral would, because he lacks Fandral's overwhelming strength advantage. Isn't this an admission that Fandral is more physically formidable than Slade, and that he can match the results Slade achieved against the female Vigilante with less effort?

What I'm saying is Punisher vs Fandral is a massive false equivalency.

Why?

3
ICT / Re: Vision VS Rouge
« on: November 20, 2017, 11:17:36 PM »
But even if that's true (and it's not a given), that would never happen in an actual fight. Vision would either become intangible, or max out his density, at which point he could no-sell a standard She-Hulk's attacks, and potentially those of a Wonder Man level Rogue as well.



4
ICT / Re: Vision VS Rouge
« on: November 20, 2017, 09:58:45 PM »
As an android, Vision is immune to Rogue's power absorption; that was established in her very first appearance. (Admittedly, it was also established that she couldn't absorb Wonder Man's powers, which has since been contradicted, but so far as I know, she's still never absorbed the power of an android/robot.)




That being so, Vizh is an overwhelming favourite against '90s Rogue IMO. He's more experienced than her and likely smarter, more versatile, and plain stronger and tougher at maximum density. In fact, he could probably no-sell her attacks at maximum density, and can certainly do so at minimum density. I reckon '90s Rogue would be lucky to win even 1/10 against him.

I'd give Rogue with Wonder Man's powerset the edge against the Vision, since Wonder Man himself has shown one. But that's a closer fight in my mind than Vision going up against '90s Rogue.

And here's the scene where an enraged She-Hulk ripped the Vision in half. As you can see, he was already damaged at the time and unconscious, thanks to Ultron screwing with him. So Jen ripped apart a standard density Vision who was putting up no resistance whatsover, and that's aside from whatever strength increase she got from Hulking out physically (apparently she wasn't that uber, since Iron Man KOed her with one flying punch, but this was all written by Bendis, and fights aren't his strong suit).

https://imgur.com/a/JkfjI

5
ICT / Re: Battle of the Week: Nominations
« on: November 20, 2017, 07:28:40 AM »
Black Knight vs. Ra's al Ghul

6
ICT / Re: Deathstroke vs Fandral The Dashing
« on: November 20, 2017, 07:02:03 AM »
Handbook stats clearly are wrong sometimes, but we're not discussing Handbook stats in general, we're discussing one specific statement about Fandral's swordsmanship being unsurpassed within Asgard.

I thought you were accepting that statement, but now you seem to be saying it's an exaggeration. On what basis do you believe it's an exaggeration? It isn't enough to say that it hasn't been proven. An unproven statement isn't automatically an exaggeration.

It's a simple matter of what a character is meant to be versus what he actually is.  Taskmaster is a similar character.  He's supposed to be able to mimic every move after seeing it performed once.  He should be at the top of the street level crowd due to essentially being a combo every major MA in Marvel, but he's had a lot of bad showings that don't gel with what he was originally meant to be.  You've read enough comics to know that sometimes a character will be created with a particular vision, but over the years, it's not realized in the stories.

Sure, I agree that Taskmaster doesn't seem as impressive as his power suggests he should be. But we arrive at that conclusion on the basis of the defeats he's suffered. We don't just assume it, like you seem to be doing with Fandral.

Additionally, Fandral being the best swordsman in Asgard might still mean he can be beaten by someone not from Asgard.  Again, on paper, the concept of a warrior race where each person is thousands of years old seems like they would beat any mortal in skill due to their old age, but comics don't work that way.  Daredevil is likely a better hth combatant than Thor or Hercules even though they have been fighting for centuries.  You know all this.

Oh sure. And I agree that Fandral being an unsurpassed swordsman within Asgard doesn't necessarily make him unsurpassed on Earth as well. But it's a noteworthy distinction, something to be given due consideration when comparing him to Earth's finest swordsmen. And we shouldn't assume the "centuries of experience" thing will always be ignored. It often is, but it wasn't when Slade fough Ra's.

We don't know that Fandral has any superiors as a swordsman, like we do with Slade. We've certainly no reason to think he'd lose to Ra's al Ghul, other than a flat-out assumption.

It's also a flat out assumption that he could beat Ra's.

But I'm only allowing for the possibility that Fandral wouldn't lose to Ras' as easily as Slade did. Stating that something is possible, or plausible, isn't the same as assuming it.

Or Slade for that matter.  You have yet to provide a single feat for Fandral.

There is a feat on the table, in the form of him at least matching Taskmaster. It isn't outright proof that Fandral is a better swordsman than Slade, but it is pretty decent evidence against him being inferior, since Taskmaster's sword skills are based on those of the Black Knight, who is arguably Marvel Earth's finest swordsman.

I'm not sure, I don't think he's been tested against established swordsmen. But the fact that he's untested doesn't prove he's below anybody in particular, even the best swordfighters you could name. It just means he's untested. You're making a leap from him being untested to him being below specific characters by default. That's unsound reasoning.

Unsound reasoning is assuming he'd win based on his character concept.  It's a great start, but we need solid feats.  You know this is how HC functions.

I understand that many here won't be convinced of anything without feats. But in actual comics, who wins a fight isn't always determined by who has the best feats. I'm pretty sure Deathstroke had better combat feats than Ra's al Ghul before they fought, but Ra's won regardless, and the reasoning offered in the dialogue applies just as much to Fandral as it does to Ra's.

Possibly a stalemate. If you look at the scan again, Taskmaster is being knocked back in the second panel, and no longer has his sword. Also, Fandral said Taskmaster's skill was increasing with each passing stroke, which suggests Tasky wasn't as good as him when the fight began.

So Fandral might have had one solid win in a duel.  That is still less than Deathstroke.

It might be lesser in number, but that doesn't make it lesser in quality, which is the most important thing. Who has Deathstroke matched or beaten in a swordfight, that is at least as good a swordsman as Taskmaster?

There's a difference between a character having a feat another may not have matched on-panel, and having a feat that truly suggests they're superior to another. It isn't as if Fandral has taken on similar characters and fared worse than Slade did. He's just untested in that regard (with the exception of the Taskmaster fight), as I acknowledged above.

And I can't believe you seriously think Fandral -- a seasoned warrior god with 30 ton level strength -- wouldn't beat a female Punisher analogue under the circumstances that Slade did. Would you make Fandral an underdog against Frank Castle if all Castle had was a knife?

Slade beating a human in top physical shape is different than Fandral beating a human in top physical shape.  If a 30 tonner fought a Frank Castle-level fighter, all skill goes out the window.  Meanwhile, a near peak human has the potential to at least compete with Deathstroke on a physical level.

As we know, Deathstroke has some degree of super strength and is capable of fighting people who are far stronger than him so him fighting a character who is class 30 is more of a fair fight.

Not sure if I follow you here. It sounds like you're saying that Slade needs to employ more skill against street levellers than Fandral would, because he lacks Fandral's overwhelming strength advantage. Isn't this an admission that Fandral is more physically formidable than Slade, and that he can match the results Slade achieved against the female Vigilante with less effort?

7
ICT / Re: Deathstroke vs Fandral The Dashing
« on: November 20, 2017, 04:44:29 AM »
Double post.

8
ICT / Re: Deathstroke vs Fandral The Dashing
« on: November 20, 2017, 04:36:14 AM »
You previously said the statement wasn't wrong. Now you're saying it's hyperbole, i.e. an exaggeration? So which is it? I can't address your position if it's two different things at once.

Handbook stats aren't wrong.  People claiming one guy is the best at anything is hyperbole unless we see evidence.

Handbook stats clearly are wrong sometimes, but we're not discussing Handbook stats in general, we're discussing one specific statement about Fandral's swordsmanship being unsurpassed within Asgard.

I thought you were accepting that statement, but now you seem to be saying it's an exaggeration. On what basis do you believe it's an exaggeration? It isn't enough to say that it hasn't been proven. An unproven statement isn't automatically an exaggeration.

But it is proof that he's not the best there is with a sword... whereas we've yet to establish that Fandral has any superiors in that respect. Is there any reason to think Fandral would lose to Ra's? Ra's mentioned his centuries of experience as giving him the edge over Slade, but that reasoning doesn't apply against Fandral.

Does Deathstroke have to be the best swordsman to beat Fandral?

Possibly. We don't know that Fandral has any superiors as a swordsman, like we do with Slade. We've certainly no reason to think he'd lose to Ra's al Ghul, other than a flat-out assumption.

And what swordsmen of note has Fandral beaten?

I'm not sure, I don't think he's been tested against established swordsmen. But the fact that he's untested doesn't prove he's below anybody in particular, even the best swordfighters you could name. It just means he's untested. You're making a leap from him being untested to him being below specific characters by default. That's unsound reasoning.

In the 60+ years he's been around, there seems to be exactly one instance of him fighting a named opponent and it was a stalemate.

Possibly a stalemate. If you look at the scan again, Taskmaster is being knocked back in the second panel, and no longer has his sword. Also, Fandral said Taskmaster's skill was increasing with each passing stroke, which suggests Tasky wasn't as good as him when the fight began.

In response to the sword feats you posted for Slade, the GA/Canary showing is impressive, but are you seriously arguing that the other stuff you posted is beyond the ability of Fandral? They show Slade to be skilled with a sword, which is a given, but they're nothing exceptional by the standards of skilled swordsfighters.

I think the GA/BC fight is superior to what we've seen from Fandral so far.  As far as the other examples go, I'm not 100% sure Fandral could beat Ravager.  Especially if he's fighting a team of superheroes while doing it.  Ravager is no slouch and has gone toe-to-toe with Cassandra Kane.  I'm not sure how tough Vigilante was, but Deathstroke beating her is still above Fandral who we have yet to see beat a named opponent.

There's a difference between a character having a feat another may not have matched on-panel, and having a feat that truly suggests they're superior to another. It isn't as if Fandral has taken on similar characters and fared worse than Slade did. He's just untested in that regard (with the exception of the Taskmaster fight), as I acknowledged above.

And I can't believe you seriously think Fandral -- a seasoned warrior god with 30 ton level strength -- wouldn't beat a female Punisher analogue under the circumstances that Slade did. Would you make Fandral an underdog against Frank Castle if all Castle had was a knife?

9
ICT / Re: Deathstroke vs Fandral The Dashing
« on: November 20, 2017, 03:15:31 AM »
I don't see how the statement that Fandral is unsurpassed in swordsmanship within Asgard is useless information, if it's accepted as accurate, and the point in contention is how he'd fare against Slade in a swordfight. I haven't presented it as proof that he's better than Slade with a sword, or even equal necessarily, but it's surely worth mentioning as part of the conversation. Of course showings count too, but where are the showings that would supposedly outweigh what the bio had to say?

Because hyperbole only takes you so far.

You previously said the statement wasn't wrong. Now you're saying it's hyperbole, i.e. an exaggeration? So which is it? I can't address your position if it's two different things at once.

And did you see the scans I posted of Ras' al Ghul besting Slade in a swordfight?

I did.  Losing a swordfight to Ra's isn't exactly embarrassing.

But it is proof that he's not the best there is with a sword... whereas we've yet to establish that Fandral has any superiors in that respect. Is there any reason to think Fandral would lose to Ra's? Ra's mentioned his centuries of experience as giving him the edge over Slade, but that reasoning doesn't apply against Fandral.

In response to the sword feats you posted for Slade, the GA/Canary showing is impressive, but are you seriously arguing that the other stuff you posted is beyond the ability of Fandral? They show Slade to be skilled with a sword, which is a given, but they're nothing exceptional by the standards of skilled swordsfighters.

10
ICT / Re: Deathstroke vs Fandral The Dashing
« on: November 20, 2017, 12:17:03 AM »
Why? Do we have any reason -- at all -- to believe the official bios are wrong in this case?

They're not wrong but there's a big difference in what characters look like on paper and how it all plays out in comics.  Fandral is stronger than Deathstroke, has more experience than Deathstroke, and the idea of "best swordsman in Asgard" sounds much more impressive than "a super soldier".  The thing of it is, Deathstroke has probably had more appearances over the years despite Fandral being older and he's much more of a fan and creator favorite, which means he's been given better feats.

I don't see how the statement that Fandral is unsurpassed in swordsmanship within Asgard is useless information, if it's accepted as accurate, and the point in contention is how he'd fare against Slade in a swordfight. I haven't presented it as proof that he's better than Slade with a sword, or even equal necessarily, but it's surely worth mentioning as part of the conversation. Of course showings count too, but where are the showings that would supposedly outweigh what the bio had to say?

Are you actually reading what's being typed, AP? The point in contention is not who's more formidable overall, but whether Deathstroke would beat Fandral in a straight swordfight. And BTW, I haven't actually tried to put Fandral over Deathstroke, even in that regard. If I were to rate one over the other in swordsmanship, I would pick Fandral, but all I originally said was that I don't see Slade beating Fandral in a straight swordfight. That's the point Oats chose to dispute in a rather obnoxious fashion, and so that's what I'm now focusing on.

Right.  And Deathstroke has better feats with a sword whereas Fandral doesn't have a lot to show for himself.

Such as (responding to the part in bold)...? And did you see the scans I posted of Ras' al Ghul besting Slade in a swordfight?

https://imgur.com/a/46Zm8

11
ICT / Re: Deathstroke vs Fandral The Dashing
« on: November 19, 2017, 11:10:22 PM »
I’m on my phone, so it’s way too annoying to cull all of that to answer the last part

“Definitely beats him in a sword fight” is my final say

So we're back to the original question I posed to you: what makes you think that? I.e., is there any coherent reasoning or evidence behind that position?





This is one of those instances where the handbooks are useless.

Why? Do we have any reason -- at all -- to believe the official bios are wrong in this case?

Fandral simply does not have the showings to put him over Deathstroke.  Stalemating Taskmaster for one page is the best thing he's done and even then, Taskmaster is also one of these characters who's often not as good as he's supposed to be.  For every uber showing he has, there are about three more where he's treated like a henchman.

Are you actually reading what's being typed, AP? The point in contention is not who's more formidable overall, but whether Deathstroke would beat Fandral in a straight swordfight. And BTW, I haven't actually tried to put Fandral over Deathstroke, even in that regard. If I were to rate one over the other in swordsmanship, I would pick Fandral, but all I originally said was that I don't see Slade beating Fandral in a straight swordfight. That's the point Oats chose to dispute in a rather obnoxious fashion, and so that's what I'm now focusing on.

12
ICT / Re: Deathstroke vs Fandral The Dashing
« on: November 19, 2017, 09:02:17 AM »
I have zero issues with conceding the Balder point, I just thought he was worth mentioning, and the debate on that still isn’t closed

PS you love Handbook stuff for no reason, and too much

I love evidence, and if I can't find it in a story, I'll look to the Handbooks as my next port of call, since some evidence is better than no evidence in my view. It's certainly more objective than going with gut feelings or assumptions.

Deathstroke is an A+ street leveler, same as Cap, Fandral being a nobody and stalemating Taskmaster isn’t the best shot in the arm for him beating someone who can defeat someone like Batman,

You're moving the goalposts now. The specific point we were discussing was who'd come out on top in a swordfight. We're agreed on who'd win overall, and I picked Slade before you did.

Besides, Slade didn't beat Batman with skill alone, he beat him with a combo of inferior skill backed up by superior stats, and you just got done arguing that superior stats won't matter in a swordfight. So I don't see how any of Slade's HtH wins over Batman advance the case for him outmatching Fandral in swordplay one iota.

and swords are Slade’s thing

As much as they are Fandral's? Fandral relies exclusively on his sword, whereas Slade mixes it up between his sword, guns, power staff, and other gear. Also, how often does Slade get into actual swordfights? For Fandral, that's his bread and butter, whereas for Slade, it's a rarity.

Here's one example of Slade in a swordfight though.

https://imgur.com/a/46Zm8

Glad you mentioned the physically not at all superhuman Black Knight before I did

I think Fandral vs Deadpool is a better fight
This is a good fight, but it’s Slade all the way

I’ll retract “dismantles” to “definitey beats”

Your full statement was "Deathstoke dismantles him in a sword fight"... so are you now saying he "definitely beats" Fandral in a swordfight instead? Or are you just dropping the swordfight part altogether?

13
ICT / Re: Deathstroke vs Fandral The Dashing
« on: November 19, 2017, 06:44:24 AM »
Strength not meaning much in a comic sword fight and if this is true

I don't necessarily disagree that Fandral's superior strength may not be factored into a swordfight. And sure, Taskmaster appeared to proved himself a rival to Fandral in swordfighting skill. But neither of those things corroborates the statement that Slade would dismantle Fandral in a swordfight. You haven't posted any evidence that Slade is a better swordsman than either of these guys. You haven't posted any evidence that he's as good as them, for that matter.

Although I’d have to point out that Balder is probably supposed to be the finest swordsman in Asgard

He is? I'm not aware of any in-story statements of either Balder or Fandral being the finest swordsman in Asgard, but Fandral's Encyclopedia Mythologica bio says he's "unsurpassed in his mastery of swordsmanship", while Balder's entry merely says he's a "superbly skilled warrior, highly proficient in hand to hand combat, swordsmanship and horsemanship".




14
ICT / Re: Deathstroke vs Fandral The Dashing
« on: November 19, 2017, 06:36:44 AM »
Yeah,that fight.
Well,even if it's a single panel,what Fandral said makes suppose they have already traded some blows.
Given the fact Fandral has superhuman stats and he's very skilled with blades not sure if this is a low show for him or a good feat for Taskmaster.
But as I said,not sure if and how much Asgardians were weakened during Siege.

If it's to be taken as a measure of skill, it seems like a respectable showing for Fandral. He's at least holding his own against someone who can duplicate the swordfighting techniques of the Black Knight, and who was apparently improving as they fought, presumably by learning moves from Fandral himself on-the-fly. That'd seem to confirm that Fandral is one of the finest swordfighters in the MU, not just by Asgardian standards, but Marvel Earth standards too.

And maybe Fandral did better than hold his own, considering that Taskmaster appears to be disarmed of his sword in the second panel. Either that, or the artist just forgot to draw it.

Deathstroke may not be the best swordman in DC but has way better stats than Taskmaster even if less skilled than him with a sword.

Would superior physical attributes be factored into a swordfight though? According to the scan posted above, not necessarily.

If not wrong Thor himself remarked how Fandral is the best with a sword though I can see Balder being overall a better fighter and a better warrior.

I know of an instance where Thor said Fandral was "the best of us with the blade", but he was on an adventure with the Warriors Three at the time. Balder wasn't present, so I wouldn't take that statement to include him.

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ICT / Re: Deathstroke vs Fandral The Dashing
« on: November 19, 2017, 12:08:23 AM »
What makes you think that?

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