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Messages - Pillow Biter

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Superman is without a doubt 'technically' a billionaire given any reasonable appraisal of the Fortress of Solitude's value.

That said, despite some fuzziness at the edges, comic writers do tend to have a fairly consistent and workable definition of power. It's rough, but it's basically formidability in a brawl subtracting the skill component, or something like that. This said, some writers do have a different take.

Sure. That's logical and a decent take. But that's what I meant by it breaking down to a semantics game with respect to the meaning of the word 'power'.

If forced, tend to define power in comics in a kind of 'raw power' way. Doomsday is much more powerful than a Green Lantern, even though a GL can do so many things Doomsday cannot, and can manifest his or her power on a much larger scale.

But again, it becomes a semantics question. Threads about who is most intelligent tend to break down in a similar fashion: who is smarter, Batman or Hank Pym?

Superman is typically more effectively versatile, but using all showings, the hammer can do a lot of things. It just usually doesn't.

Judging who is more powerful is difficult when you have people close to the same level and often becomes a semantics game. Again, Superman would typically be considered more powerful in a comics contest basically because he could beat up Thor and beat up people Thor can't normally beat up.

But if you start talking about some kind of measurement of total contained power, Mjolnir has a lot. Then again, Superman has that semi-dynamic thing going and he's hard to truly measure.

ICT / Re: Galactus vs Superman standing on the sun
« on: Today at 02:28:57 AM »
Only in OWAW has Superman ever been shown to be able to sundip up to and possibly beyond Galactus' level. And in that case, he needed a fair bit of time to do so.
So Galactus is the overwhelming favorite unless totally starved. The only interesting conversation to be had is whether the OWAW Sundipped Superman, if he showed up at that level, could beat Galactus.

note: In DC One Million, iirc, Superman had journeyed for years across the universe and gathered some kinds of other powers before then living in the Sun for ages. So I'm disinclined to use this as a reference point. However, it does suggest that some writers do feel that Superman can become a cosmic-level force given enough time in the Sun.

ICT / Re: Thor and Blue Marvel vs Silver Surfer and Hulk
« on: Today at 02:25:00 AM »
All but Hulk are on the same level and typically 50/50. The Hulk, however, is incredibly variable. So it really comes down to the version of the Hulk that shows up and how angry he gets. So basically, it's impossible to rate.

ICT / Re: Superman vs Marvel Zeus
« on: March 17, 2018, 05:02:50 AM »

The fact of the matter, Superman has been stabbed by a magic sword, struck by a magic arrow and still kept on ticking. Hell, the 4 prime Elementals of Earth backed down when Superman threatened them.

I think most would agree that Superman's magic weakness is highly inconsistent, and that's about as much as we can say.

Most here are rating the fight without the magic weakness first, to establish a baseline. Then the magic weakness can be considered. But even without the weakness, most favor Zeus.

ICT / Re: Superman vs Marvel Zeus
« on: March 17, 2018, 04:59:53 AM »
I have to wonder, after a certain point don't feats become irrelevant? I ask this since going by feats Red Son Superman is leaps and bounds beyond The Dark Knight Returns Superman, yet in Arena these two dofferent characters were depicted more or less on oar with each other.

Nu52 Superman has the Eaeth benching feat compared to All-star Superman that has the under 3x the moons mass benching feat. If Nu52 and AS Superman were to face each other would one of them be depicted vastly above the other or similar to Arena's take or Golden Age Superman = New Earth Superman (regardless of feats) during Infinite Crisis?

Hell, according to feats you would think New Earth Superman > Kingdom Come Superman, yet when they actually met KC Superman was depicted much stronger than New Earth Superman.

Feats are typically of very little import; what matters is relative showings and statements. All characters in a shared universe are bound by all these relative power relationships, which are more consistent than feats. So in a sense, they all share each other's feats. Feats can sometimes be useful for establishing the overall power level of a comics universe, though.

ICT / Re: Hawkeye vs Punisher: equal bodes, no weapons, dojo fight
« on: March 15, 2018, 12:35:44 PM »
There was a time where Hawkeye clearly experienced a permanent, longterm boost in his HtH skill. So I don't really like averaging him with stories from before then.

That said, with all the changes in the MU, I don't really know where he stands today.

ICT / Re: Hawkeye vs Punisher: equal bodes, no weapons, dojo fight
« on: March 15, 2018, 11:03:39 AM »
I think in pure skill, Hawkeye exceeded Frank.

But if you made this a 1v1 street fight with no weapons, but no equalization, Frank might win on gumption and willingness to do whatever is needed.

ICT / Re: Superman vs Marvel Zeus
« on: March 15, 2018, 10:20:25 AM »
So outcomes tend to be nuanced. I believe, as I said, that Zeus would typically win. That said, Superman in more extreme, all-out portrayal might beat a lower-end Skyfather showing. And here I have to infer from Skyfathers in general, as Zeus doesn't have that many showings, but Odin definitely has some weaker ones.

I remember the writer of the King Thor arc basically saying that different writers had different takes on the Skyfather power level, but he felt that a lower-end portrayal of their power relative to heroes and other characters made more sense and for better stories. And I agreed with him. Zeus could well get that kind of treatment, and then he'd be beatable by Superman on a good day. But if Zeus is getting the kind of treatment where a Skyfather can throw down with Galactus almost evenly, then Superman is in for a very bad day.

ICT / Re: Superman vs Marvel Zeus
« on: March 15, 2018, 09:49:03 AM »

Just recently tanked attacks from Rebirth Hal who thought he was possessed by Parralax.
I don't doubt that Superman was probably considered more powerful than Hal by that writer. Nevertheless, Superman clearly says to Hal: "I'd hate to feel how hard you hit when you're in your right mind."

Why do you leave these kinds of details out?

ICT / Re: Superman vs Marvel Zeus
« on: March 15, 2018, 09:46:43 AM »
Battleboards should not limit your option when other depictions are shown.
If the character with 1000 power sets is debated where the central usage is punching against the Hulk then this means whoever is against Hulk has already lost the battle before it even begun.
Now if all you have is Zeus is firing blasts like a retard and slugging then against a guy like Superman he gets wrecked.

There are different opinions as to what the purpose of a battle board debate is. IMO the purpose is to increase our understanding of the characters as they are typically written, and to estimate fight results based on that understanding.

I debate characters fighting the way writers tend to show them fight.

ICT / Re: Superman vs Marvel Zeus
« on: March 15, 2018, 09:15:37 AM »
Have you read Justice League: Primeval?

I'm simply wondering why the debate here is like Zeus has no other option but to blast and blast. Is he like the Surfer now?

Not no other option, but again, comics tend to be biased towards creating interesting, relatable-to-human-readers fights. This is why speed rarely gets used to full effect and cosmic-powered guys still end up punching and blasting rather than just staring at each other and fighting invisibly across multiple dimensions.

ICT / Re: Superman vs Juggernaut in a slugfest
« on: March 13, 2018, 03:54:06 AM »
What do people mean by 'peak'? Do you mean his most powerful portrayals? Or do you mean an average of all portrayals where the writer felt Juggernaut was at full power, even if that writer's take on 'full power' involved a Juggernaut who was less powerful than other writers had shown him to be?

The most powerful Juggernaut portrayals have a Juggernaut who is beyond elite top tier physical damage and/or can regenerate almost instantly from anything that actually hurt him. Some of Superman's most extreme all-out portrayals *might* go beyond this level, and thus possibly be able to hurt such a Juggernaut. But we are talking about a level of invulnerability that could easily take a Godblast.

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