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Messages - Pillow Biter

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ICT / Re: Immortal Hulk vs Superman challenge |Feat war/relative showings
« on: October 17, 2018, 01:38:33 AM »
Pak's opinion on SuperDoom's power level is not definitive in the sense that he didn't set SuperDoom at a special power level distinct from Superman's--he's just Superman enraged. Pak doesn't get to singlehandedly decide an enarged Superman's potential power level.
He is the authority on whether the Superman he wrote, SuperDoom or otherwise, would beat the Hulk he wrote. Sure. But he's just one writer in terms of whether Superman in general can overpower the Hulk in general.
Anyways, given how dynamic the power levels of both Hulk and Superman are, it is very tough to call fights between them. You can make it easier by specifying specific portrayals of each, but unless you pick portrayals that lack dynamism, it's still a crap shoot.
I guess something like a Professor Hulk that can't get stronger vs. a portrayal of Superman under a writer who never credited Superman with much more dynamism than other big guns would be the easiest fight to rate. Crazy thing with Superman, though, is that sometimes his power levels seem to go up radically in a given issue or arc and they don't even provide a reason at all. Look at Superman King of the World. No mental blocks or sucking in more sunshine due to enervated emotions etc... Suddenly he's beating down whole groups of top tiers. Yes, he had a minor sunamp, but if you read the narration, it's pretty clear that even without the sun amp the JLA (with top tier help) felt they could only beat Superman using trickery and Green K.
I don't agree with everything Skeletor said, but he's right that Superman is a special character that is hard to bet against. Crazy shit happens with him more often than most if not all other major DC and Marvel heroes. You have to factor that in, no matter how hard that is to do.

ICT / Re: Orion VS Doomsday
« on: October 17, 2018, 01:28:17 AM »
Sure. I know Orion has some great feats. And Jurgens is just one writer. But if you look at their continuity as a whole, Orion and Superman are often portrayed as peers; however, there are far more showings that either state or suggest Superman having an edge to even outright dominance over Orion than the other way around. (Though Orion does have some showings that suggest he is superior to Superman, which is a rare thing for DC Heroes.)
On the whole, Orion's power isn't really portrayed as more dynamic than other bricks in his weight class: WW, Shazam, Black Adam, Thor, Gladiator, Hyperion, Blue Marvel, etc. So we can quibble over who has an edge over whom; but taking a holistic view, I still think Orion is essentially in this weight class and a rough 50/50 vs most of them.
Superman, however, is a different beast. He's often in this class, with perhaps a small edge over many of them; but there's a recurring theme of Superman stepping outside this tier to a degree and with a regularity none of these others can match.
I can see an argument for Orion perhaps having more upside than these other heroes, Superman aside--holding back some true potential power to a greater degree than the others. But most of these heroes have had showings like that. I don't see the theme as being that much more pronounced with Orion as to put him in a separate class, the way I would with Superman.

ICT / Re: Superman/Orion vs BlueMarvel/Silver Surfer
« on: October 17, 2018, 01:19:53 AM »
It's pretty close to 50/50 with edge to Team 1. But Team 1 also has more upside due to Superman's more dynamic nature--there are many more occasions where Team 1 would not just edge out a win but dominate than the other way around.

ICT / Re: Multiversal Defender
« on: October 16, 2018, 04:19:38 AM »
You think his super intelligence, a starbrand and negabands might help a little bit?

The exact dynamics are unclear, but it seems like under a regular yellow star his powers eventually drop to zero. He can't even have basic Superman powers under a yellow sun. How this would ultimately affect his insane IQ is unclear.

BTW does 'Sentry's powers' mean basically you get his full, unfettered powers with no Void and no insanity? If so, yes please!

ICT / Re: Dr. Fate/Wonder Woman vs Dr. Doom/Thor
« on: October 16, 2018, 04:17:59 AM »
Thor and WW are basically 50/50, but I give Diana the edge. But it's real close.
So II guess it depends on the Doctor Fate. The best Fates beat Doom.

ICT / Re: Multiversal Defender
« on: October 16, 2018, 12:50:18 AM »
Superman 1,000,000 equals Supes' descendant or golden Kal-El coming out of the Sun?
If it is the former, he has issues without a Super-Sun to recharge from.

ICT / Re: Orion VS Doomsday
« on: October 16, 2018, 12:48:59 AM »
Two showings, especially with no explicit power up, don't really move the needle much on Orion's power level IMO. I still put him at roughly WW level,, which means he's pretty close to Superman's day to day, but can't match Superman unleashed under writers who credit Superman with exceptionally dynamic power.
I'd put Orion, WW, Black Adam, Thor, Gladiator, Blue Marvel, Surfer all on roughly the same level. They are all pretty close to 50/50 with one another.

ICT / Re: Orion VS Doomsday
« on: October 15, 2018, 09:32:57 PM »
We know that Orion can't last even 60 seconds against H&P Doomsday--I believe that was with MM. DOS Doomsday is not so much weaker that Orion is winning IMO, even with tactics.

ICT / Re: Orion VS Doomsday
« on: October 15, 2018, 10:41:24 AM »
Yep. And Orion wouldn't take Doomsday with him, either.
Orion is often a match or near match to every day Superman.
But only Superman accessing higher power levels, and thereby demonstrating more dynamic power levels than your average hero (Orion included), can typically match Doomsday.
And Orion can't match that Superman.

ICT / Re: Orion VS Doomsday
« on: October 15, 2018, 10:37:20 AM »
Any Doomsday is favored.

ICT / Re: Immortal Hulk vs Superman challenge |Feat war/relative showings
« on: October 12, 2018, 06:28:57 AM »
That's one writer's opinion. The fact is that Hulk does get beaten and overpowered sometimes, without getting talked down.

I won't argue too strongly about Iron Man having escaped 'Iron Man Syndrome'. You make a good point about how adding more heroes at any given tier can affect one's perception of a hero's relative ranking. My gut tells me that ignoring raw numbers and thinking more about power level tiers, Tony's tier level might have gone up moderately.

As for Superman, no doubt that in some ways he seems objectively more powerful. He tends to travel through space without a mask now, for example--though even now some writers still say that he is 'holding his breath' whereas others seem to suggest he doesn't actually need to breathe. But no more mask just for breathing. He also rarely uses a spaceship to travel into deep space anymore.
But in terms of relative power, he was basically #1 under Byrne, slightly-to-moderately ahead of Wonder Woman, with some exceptional showings that put him further ahead. Captain Marvel/Black Adam is a bit of a red herring--I think they realized that Shazam could never find his own place if they kept playing the 'magical clone of Superman' game, and they have decoupled them. They went down more than Superman went up. Superman's rough parity with Orion most of the time has been maintained, though again, Supes seems to have an overall edge and sometimes a big advantage.
Anyways, I don't see a big change in Superman's relative power over the years. Remember, it's not as if they only powered-down Superman after the Crisis--DC felt that all its heroes had gotten a bit out of control and so everyone was powered down.
I think that even explicit power ups--even ones that get 'proven' in the all important relative terms by allowing the hero to outperform previous showings against other heroes and villains--often go away over time, even without being explicitly repealed.

I'm exploring what I call the 'power-up paradox', perhaps best exemplified by Iron Man back in the day. Essentially, heroes often get explicit power ups but their relative standing essentially doesn't change. Ironically, Iron Man himself may have eventually escaped the 'Iron Man Syndrome' and probably ranks a bit higher in the hero hierarchy than he used to.
This problem also comes up when people start posting fights like 'Blue Marvel vs. DOS Doomsday', etc.
So, for example, is Superman more powerful now than he was under Byrne relative to the other DC heroes? If so, how much more? If he is basically at the same rank, why? Did every other hero get power ups that exactly match his?
Despite the title, I'm happy to use any and all other heroes as examples of this 'Power Up Paradox'.

ICT / Re: Immortal Hulk vs Superman challenge |Feat war/relative showings
« on: October 11, 2018, 10:47:26 AM »
You can't read.
I'm the one qualifying--saying you can't assume that every time a writer has Superman fail at something or fail to overpower someone, that particular writer secretly felt Superman had the potential to do far better if he'd been able to access his dynamic-like power.
I'm not denying that some writers probably do feel this way--in fact, I think they often do. But this is comics, so one can't make a blanket assumption that every writer subscribes to the idea of a Hulk-like Superman and to the same degree.
I'm the one saying that we can't read their minds here.

ICT / Re: Immortal Hulk vs Superman challenge |Feat war/relative showings
« on: October 11, 2018, 09:55:11 AM »
It's not necessarily true that every time a writer doesn't have Superman 'Hulk out' to a beyond elite top tier level that the writer in question feels Superman has that potential if he stops holding back (or draws in more solar energy, breaks mental blocks, or whatever the dynamic power mechanism of the day is).
Sometimes, a writer may just treat Superman like basically another flying brick, albeit a powerful one.

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