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Messages - Pillow Biter

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ICT / Re: Giant Skullcrawler vs DCEU Wonder Woman
« on: Today at 07:41:26 AM »
I see no reason to conclude Zeus would defeat Superman.

ICT / Re: Giant Skullcrawler vs DCEU Wonder Woman
« on: Today at 07:12:30 AM »
We probably agree, roughly, on how WW and Step match up--minus the number. I think 70% is actually close, and would be enough to be the bother she was. But no point getting hung up on a number.

I think Superman would have beaten Step 1v1, with no distractions on either side.

ICT / Re: Giant Skullcrawler vs DCEU Wonder Woman
« on: Today at 06:34:59 AM »
I think she was 'relatively' close to Step, but he had a decided edge. But then again, people on battleboards tend to think 'relatively close' means like 95% of the strength or power. I'd say 70% or so seems right.

ICT / Re: Giant Skullcrawler vs DCEU Wonder Woman
« on: May 25, 2018, 09:33:09 AM »
I wouldn't necessarily say that the BvS and WW movies presented her as a true peer to Superman, but they did seem to suggest a narrower gap in their power levels.
And I forgot about the Godkiller angle, a further complication in trying to scale her power level to say Ares'. Did she match him? Did she get lucky? Was she somehow less formidable on the whole but specially designed to beat Greek Gods? Is that a special unleashed power level she attained at the end of the WW movie that she perhaps does not access normally in BvS or JL?

There really isn't a lot to go on. I guess one could review the BvS footage vs. Doomsday to see if there are any real indications of her strength vs. Doomsday's.

ICT / Re: Giant Skullcrawler vs DCEU Wonder Woman
« on: May 25, 2018, 08:43:18 AM »
Sure. But past that, it tends to make her tough to evaluate in fights. Could she beat MCU Iron Man, for example? Or the newest version? No clue.

ICT / Re: Giant Skullcrawler vs DCEU Wonder Woman
« on: May 25, 2018, 06:12:17 AM »
I've seen all the DCEU movie with WW in them, and it is tough to get a read on her power level. It's hard to scale her (or any other DCEU figure) to Superman as thus far, the DCEU has gone with a take on Superman that puts him far above the other leaguers.

In her own movie, she's clearly discovering her powers and becoming more powerful in the process--so I don't think struggling to lift an armored car or whatever represents her true strength either.

The most we have to go on is that she is shown to be a threat to Ares, who earlier was a threat to Steppenwolf and almost matched Zeus. However, Ares' power is highly dynamic, based on the amount of war in the world. Furthermore, Ares was said to be weakened for thousands of years after his fight with Zeus. He may not even have been at full power in the WW Movie--though given the dynamism of his power via channeling war throughout the world, it's difficult to say what 'full power' even means for Ares. He could be still weakened by his fight by Zeus, but channeling enough 'war energy' to still be more powerful than he might have been at a point prior to the Zeus fight.

So there really isn't much to go on. Basically, she's clearly a bit below Steppenwolf, though it's unclear by how much. 

ICT / Re: DCEU Superman vs MCU Thor
« on: May 23, 2018, 11:29:19 AM »
I wonder two things about WW: one, do you think she matched Ares' full-power form in power at the end of her movie; and two, do you think the movies may be echoing the comics with WW not typically accessing that full god power like she did at the end of WW?

Sports Talk / Re: Michael Jordan vs. LeBron James
« on: May 23, 2018, 11:00:50 AM »
These discussions tend to go poorly because people tend to weight career accomplishments vs. prime play.

That being said, I tend to mostly think of how great a player's prime is, provided it is of sufficient length. I tend to think of it as: "You are a GM. You have to pick one of them in their respective primes for one for a season, with players being given a reasonable amount of time to adjust to technology and rules changes."

With that in mind, I still favor Jordan. But Lebron is #2 for me.

I do feel that not enough attention is given to the rule changes allowing more zone-like defenses, and the resulting increase in defensive sophistication since the nineties; instead, it tends to all be about the handcheck and overall greater physicality of nineties ball. Both changes are important, and I don't exactly know how it all comes out when comparing eras. That said, I see no reason to think that greatest perimeter/wing player in NBA history wouldn't do better under rules clearly designed to favor such players; even given the superior all-around athleticism of today's league. I have no doubt Jordan would become a superior 3-point shooter very quickly, and soon a great one. He purposely avoided learning how to take threes as he felt that attempting them diluted his aggressiveness. Jordan could also easily adapt to the modern games ball movement. He could pass with the best of them, and could even have become an all-time great passer if Chicago had decided this was the best use of his talents. Way back in the day, they played MJ as PG for a minute and he basically averaged a triple double iirc. So MJ could definitely be a great hybrid PG/Sg like Harden, etc. And he could still play defense.

ICT / Re: DCEU Superman vs MCU Thor
« on: May 22, 2018, 10:54:18 AM »
I'm admittedly far from certain about any of this. I've only seen each of the DCEU movies once. Furthermore, rating WW seems complicated by the fact that in her solo movie--much like in Superman's--she seemed to be slowly building up to her true power. Diana's showings early in the movie do not seem indicative of her full power.

At any rate, a lot of this is just feel for me, which is better than basing things off some bullshit attempt to measure and extrapolate biggest space cheese feats. But is still not as good as putting in the work to really try to suss the power levels of the DCEU and MCU out. But I haven't put in that work.

At any rate, off of her showings against Ares, Dooomsday, and Steppenwolf, I ranked her fairly highly. But I could be wrong here.

The way to best go about it would be look more systematically at the more mundane and Earth-bound feats of MCU and DCEU characters, particularly what they may have struggled with or even failed to do. Things like Hulk smashing that big Alien thingy in NYC or the Kryptonians tossing around trains and smashing up Metropolis. Did Aquaman drag a ship or anything?

At the end of the day, I'm open to all arguments here.

ICT / Re: DCEU Superman vs MCU Thor
« on: May 22, 2018, 10:12:16 AM »
Do you think Wonder Woman is on the same level as Ares was, or she was in some ways his weakness (Godkiller, etc.)? Was she especially "unleashed" at the end of her solo movie, or is she now always at that level?

I agree that when dealing with two completely disconnected universes, and trying to compare characters, at some point feats tend to matter. You have to try to get a sense of the overall power levels of the respective universes. I do think it is dangerous to use only the top feats for this, as writers can often be inconsistent and over-the-top with their greatest feats.

Any character equivalencies one might try to use to help elucidate matters? How about Cyborg vs. Iron Man? Which MCU character do you think approximates say Aquaman most closely in strength?

Prior to losing Mjolnir, I would have put WW, by the end of her solo movie, at his level of strength, if not higher? Would you agree with that? Disagree?

ICT / Re: DCEU Superman vs MCU Thor
« on: May 22, 2018, 08:53:40 AM »
Judging power levels by objective feats is pretty tricky business. Granted, the movies tend to be more consistent about such things than the comics, and less wildly ridiculous. Nevertheless, most of the same problems remain, if on a smaller scale.

For one thing, in a comics or movie universe, the relative showings and descriptions of characters tend bind and rank them more consistently and accurately--if relatively--than individual feats measured empirically. Thus, to a great extent, all characters are affected by the feats (or failures) of any one of them.

Thor, for all his enhanced power, is still not vastly superior to Hulk without Stormbreaker (if at all on any given day, given Hulk's dynamism); and both seem to be inferior to Thanos, even without him accessing the infinity stones.

It's tough to say how much more powerful Stormbreaker makes Thor, or how much of an upgrade it is over Mjolnir. It's even difficult to ascertain whether Thor with Stormbreaker would be favored over a stone-less Thanos in a real fight. Thor kinda came at Thanos out of the blue. Sure, the axe can kill Thanos if it strikes him cleanly; but would that killshot happen if Thanos is really prepared for a melee fight? I don't know. I actually doubt it.

At any rate, it's tough to compare the power levels of the MCU and the DCEU at the moment. My suspicion is that ignoring potential magic weaknesses, Thor is still not on Superman's level. This is mostly due to the fact that DC was willing to allow Superman an overwhelming power advantage over its other top heroes--something it may not maintain in the future. Mostly by eyeball-test and gut feeling, I'd say that DCEU Wonder Woman is at least comparable to the current Thor, though she lacks some of his ability to apply that power over a broad area. And I'd put Superman at or above a stone-less Thanos.

But I truly have no agenda here. I don't care which universe is more powerful. Proof of any kind, much less definitive proof, is going to be hard to come by. I'm happy to discuss with anyone who is as uncertain as I am and just interested in discussing the question in good faith. Those with a pro-DC or pro-Marvel agenda will be exceptionally frustrating here as it would much more difficult to show them they are wrong when they are wrong.

ICT / Re: Top 10 Most Powerful DCCU Characters
« on: May 19, 2018, 06:26:57 AM »
I'm honestly not that sure Zeus is any higher than the Kryptonians. Superman seemed like he could have curbstomped Steppenwolf if it had just been a 1v1 fight with no other considerations.

ICT / Re: Superboy Prime vs Doomsday Wars Doomsday
« on: May 05, 2018, 01:07:38 PM »
In theory, possibly. But I don't recall it being much of a factor in Doomsday Wars battles. My memory is hazy, but was his telepathy somehow 'occupied' keeping control of Doomsday?

ICT / Re: Superboy Prime vs Doomsday Wars Doomsday
« on: May 05, 2018, 07:03:51 AM »
Typically, Prime. His exact power level seemed to vary greatly from portrayal to portrayal. I'd bet that Doomie might have a shot versus some of the weakest SBP portrayals.

ICT / Re: Lex Luthor vs Doctor Doom
« on: May 04, 2018, 09:05:38 AM »
Doom is more consistently badass. Luthor is all over the place.

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