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Comic Forums => ICT => Topic started by: bender on December 01, 2014, 01:43:34 PM

Title: Batman vs. Punisher hth dirty.
Post by: bender on December 01, 2014, 01:43:34 PM
Bats and Pun face off in the mud pit from DKR. They have no equipment, there are no rules.

current forms of each (unless pun is currently an atomic monster or something I don't actually read comics atm, in which case last normal form for frank)
Title: Re: Batman vs. Punisher hth dirty.
Post by: ProjectCornDog on December 01, 2014, 01:51:54 PM
Batman 10/10
Title: Re: Batman vs. Punisher hth dirty.
Post by: g-train on December 01, 2014, 02:07:29 PM
To me Batman should win this and win hard; yes I know Punisher has given DD a good fight on multiple occasions but, and pardon my french here, that always felt like bullshit to me.



Title: Re: Batman vs. Punisher hth dirty.
Post by: Von Doom on December 01, 2014, 06:24:10 PM
To me Batman should win this and win hard; yes I know Punisher has given DD a good fight on multiple occasions but, and pardon my french here, that always felt like bullshit to me.

I always preferred the Daredevil Punisher fight (I believe it was during the Garth Ennis Punisher run) where Punisher is doing alright, but he realizes this fight is going to go like it always does - with DD kicking his ass in HTH.

Of course, he then hits DD with a high-pitched sonic blast, incapacitates him, ties him up, puts a sniper rifle in DD's hands and lets DD watch him kill a guy. All you have to do to stop me is pull the trigger... fucking mean as hell.
Title: Re: Batman vs. Punisher hth dirty.
Post by: Big Daddy Longstroke on December 01, 2014, 06:54:33 PM
Going with Batman as well.
Title: Re: Batman vs. Punisher hth dirty.
Post by: Dutchman on December 01, 2014, 07:09:49 PM
DD should beat Punisher, but I think what happens most of the time when the two brawl is that DD lowers himself into a thug. This might be completely inside my own head, but he never seens the same kind of ninja.

Of course, Shuruku is just behind me showcasing that Punisher somehow knows so much skill that he could believably pose a threat to Daredevil, and, right, he did have a similar rivalry with Bullseye as well, didn't he?
(Punisher, not Shurku)
Title: Re: Batman vs. Punisher hth dirty.
Post by: AP on December 01, 2014, 07:47:27 PM
DD should beat Punisher, but I think what happens most of the time when the two brawl is that DD lowers himself into a thug. This might be completely inside my own head, but he never seens the same kind of ninja.

Of course, Shuruku is just behind me showcasing that Punisher somehow knows so much skill that he could believably pose a threat to Daredevil, and, right, he did have a similar rivalry with Bullseye as well, didn't he?
(Punisher, not Shurku)

I don't know of any time when Frank straight up defeated DD in hth.  There have been a few times when he beat DD using weapons or traps, but it seems there is a sort of Hulk vs Thing-type fight when the two go at it.  Frank is just tough enough and dirty enough that he can hang in and deliver a few jabs but Matt is simply superior in skill.

That said, Bats should beat him down.
Title: Re: Batman vs. Punisher hth dirty.
Post by: Mightily Oats on December 01, 2014, 08:27:37 PM
Frank either does mostly alright against Daredevil, or gets his ass kicked.

There's even an issue where they start going at it, pure Punisher style on both sides, and Frank does better than usual, but still never really has a chance.

It's a sick exhange, doe

I imagine this fight goes about the same way that one did, but Batman puts him down a bit more quickly
Title: Re: Batman vs. Punisher hth dirty.
Post by: Gree on December 01, 2014, 08:28:32 PM
DD should beat Punisher, but I think what happens most of the time when the two brawl is that DD lowers himself into a thug. This might be completely inside my own head, but he never seens the same kind of ninja.

Of course, Shuruku is just behind me showcasing that Punisher somehow knows so much skill that he could believably pose a threat to Daredevil, and, right, he did have a similar rivalry with Bullseye as well, didn't he?
(Punisher, not Shurku)

That makes sense to me. Your first statement
Title: Re: Batman vs. Punisher hth dirty.
Post by: nu-safado on December 01, 2014, 09:19:06 PM
Just out of curiosity: although I absolutely agree with the statemts, why is punishes hand to hand considered so b level

I think of him as a guy who has a lot of real skill, not batman skill but skill nonetheless.  What say you all?
Title: Re: Batman vs. Punisher hth dirty.
Post by: Mightily Oats on December 01, 2014, 09:24:46 PM
Are you fucking retarded?

You pretty much just said "why do people think he's b level? I see him as basically b level. What do you guys think?"
Title: Re: Batman vs. Punisher hth dirty.
Post by: MTL76 on December 01, 2014, 10:09:31 PM
Batman 10/10. If he knows Frank's rep, he'll do some nasty permanent damage.
Title: Re: Batman vs. Punisher hth dirty.
Post by: Wyntyr on December 01, 2014, 10:20:15 PM
Are you fucking retarded?

You pretty much just said "why do people think he's b level? I see him as basically b level. What do you guys think?"


hahaha marry me, fgt
Title: Re: Batman vs. Punisher hth dirty.
Post by: shadowknight on December 01, 2014, 11:39:25 PM
Batman wins 10/10 Punisher is at best a B- HTH combatant
Title: Re: Batman vs. Punisher hth dirty.
Post by: The Shuruku Demon on December 02, 2014, 11:03:04 AM
DD should beat Punisher, but I think what happens most of the time when the two brawl is that DD lowers himself into a thug. This might be completely inside my own head, but he never seens the same kind of ninja.

Of course, Shuruku is just behind me showcasing that Punisher somehow knows so much skill that he could believably pose a threat to Daredevil, and, right, he did have a similar rivalry with Bullseye as well, didn't he?
(Punisher, not Shurku)

Somewhat. I think Punisher has actually looked superior to Bullseye HTH, but with weapons Bullseye has had him in trouble.

Punisher's stock has definitely lowered over the years. When he first appeared, he seemed to be able to fight Daredevil pretty evenly, did alright against Spider-Man, and had Cap dead to rights once. But DD has gradually carved out a solid edge against him, and Batman demonstrated a similar edge in the crossovers. Cap beat seven shades out of Frank during Civil War, although Frank didn't fight back. I think Punisher is slightly underrated at times, but this scenario really doesn't play to his strengths.
Title: Re: Batman vs. Punisher hth dirty.
Post by: MTL76 on December 02, 2014, 12:36:52 PM
I dont see Punisher as B level, just a more grounded fighter, physically and metaphorically.
He's not a swing between sky scrapers character. He's not a snatch the pebble from my hand fighter.
Different training, different styles.

None of this is what is keeping the Punisher off of the A-list. What keeps him off is that more often than not, he will lose in a H2H fight against an A-lister. He'll give them a good fight but he'll lose. Judge Dredd doesn't go in for esoteric martial arts or swinging between skyscrapers or snatching pebbles but he is still A-list based on his track record.
Title: Re: Batman vs. Punisher hth dirty.
Post by: g-train on December 02, 2014, 07:54:03 PM
Basically its like this; drop DD in a warehouse that's one big room, with no weapons and hundred ninjas he's got a reasonable chance to come out of it.

Drop Cap in a warehouse that's one big room, with a hundred shield agents and no weapons and he's got a reasonable chance to come out of it.

Drop Punisher in a warehouse that's one big room, with no weapons with a hundred goons and.....?

Its not just how well he does against the big dogs, its how well he does against every body else and in different scenarios.

Its like when he fought Elektra and she went over, took the guns out of his hands and went back to where she was standing before he could even react to it.

Part of the problem is; that while Punisher's stock has dropped a little bit, every body else's has continued going up.

Or to put it another way; Punisher's high's are DD/Cap/Etc.....lows. 
Title: Re: Batman vs. Punisher hth dirty.
Post by: Mightily Oats on December 02, 2014, 08:09:59 PM
Elektra doing that to him comes across as either a very high showing for Elektra or a shit showing for Frank

In my mind, him and Bullseye are pretty much the king of the B-list
Title: Re: Batman vs. Punisher hth dirty.
Post by: nu-safado on December 02, 2014, 08:18:06 PM
Quote
Basically its like this; drop DD in a warehouse that's one big room, with no weapons and hundred ninjas he's got a reasonable chance to come out of it.

Drop Cap in a warehouse that's one big room, with a hundred shield agents and no weapons and he's got a reasonable chance to come out of it.

Drop Punisher in a warehouse that's one big room, with no weapons with a hundred goons and.....?

Its not just how well he does against the big dogs, its how well he does against every body else and in different scenarios.

Its like when he fought Elektra and she went over, took the guns out of his hands and went back to where she was standing before he could even react to it.

Part of the problem is; that while Punisher's stock has dropped a little bit, every body else's has continued going up.

Or to put it another way; Punisher's high's are DD/Cap/Etc.....lows. 


Quote
Elektra doing that to him comes across as either a very high showing for Elektra or a shit showing for Frank

In my mind, him and Bullseye are pretty much the king of the B-list

These two posts say a lot. I think a better way of phrasing it would be to say that no way is Frank on the level of the guys who spen their whole lives training in martial arts and have enhanced stats. he is however a solid  step above anyone else who is a street level guy and not a super ninja/soldier/lightly superpowered guy.

He's very skilled and his overall skill set is quite good - he's what I imagine an insaley above the rest of the group Navy Seal would be if he lost his mind and decided to become a murdering vigilante and started directing all of his training towards that and not soldiering

Frank is way more skilled than he gets credit for - but he's not quite on the elite list. He's not quite as bad as some people seem to make him out to be though
Title: Re: Batman vs. Punisher hth dirty.
Post by: MTL76 on December 02, 2014, 08:41:18 PM
Its like when he fought Elektra and she went over, took the guns out of his hands and went back to where she was standing before he could even react to it.

That was the very definition of an outlier for both of them. The writer had a clear goal in mind writing that story and was playing fast and loose with power levels.
Title: Re: Batman vs. Punisher hth dirty.
Post by: g-train on December 02, 2014, 09:33:29 PM
Its like when he fought Elektra and she went over, took the guns out of his hands and went back to where she was standing before he could even react to it.

That was the very definition of an outlier for both of them. The writer had a clear goal in mind writing that story and was playing fast and loose with power levels.

Not really; its just Elektra on a good day versus Punisher on his average day......I mean the big dogs can do straight out bullet time and shit.

Move so fast that even people who are practically teleporting from the perspective of normal people are still quite a bit slower than them.

I'm not saying they are always portrayed at these levels but they do exist.

Now Punishers not bad himself; his draw speed is literally insane, his accuracy while not bullseye level is fantastic.

He's agile, acrobatic and skilled, way more stealth skills than a lot of people are even aware of.

It would be like if you took the general action heroes of most movies and then rolled them all into one.

With equipment and tech. on his side Punisher can make a fight of it......but if he's going up against any A-Lister kind of guy in pure HTH; Daredevil on up he's not just going up against people who are more skilled them him but often have notably better stats on top of that.

Title: Re: Batman vs. Punisher hth dirty.
Post by: AP on December 02, 2014, 10:46:20 PM
I usually get annoyed when I see supposedly non-powered people move too fast for anyone to see.  Moving too fast for someone to react to is fine.  I get that.  The Elektra scene isn't bullet time.  It is moving damn near the speed of light if you can't even so much as see a blur.
Title: Re: Batman vs. Punisher hth dirty.
Post by: Liam Gallaghers Unibrow on December 03, 2014, 07:13:19 AM
Dont feel like copy pasting or quoting. Just want to say that Dredd wouldnt fare any better than Frank against DD or Batman, IMO.

In my opinion, you're wrong. Dredd has in fact already fared better vs Batman than Punisher has if we accept their respective crossovers as useful evidence. Punisher looked completely, hopeless out of his league vs Batman in h2h terms, whilst Dredd stalemated Bats in pure h2h for 45 minutes straight. At the risk of descending into another debate about the validity of crossovers, I think such direct evidence should not be ignored.

Furthermore, it fits with how they are often portrayed in their own universes. I can't even begin to imagine Dredd being portrayed as out of his league vs Daredevil like Punny was under Ennis, for example. Whilst Frank has better showings than that, I don't think he has any pure h2h showings that match Dredd's best (although Dredd's best may be harder to gain recognition for from non-2000AD readers), and Dredd doesn't have any of the low h2h showings that Punny does.


Cheers.
Title: Re: Batman vs. Punisher hth dirty.
Post by: Liam Gallaghers Unibrow on December 03, 2014, 07:43:32 AM
Pretty sure Dredd's enhanced, afterall.

I don't think he's enhanced. The cloning process is more like extremely selective breeding to produce a champion thoroughbred horse or something. There was a story that involved the cloning scientists attempting to create super-human Judges from Dredd's genetic material, but the resulting clone suffered from extreme neural decay and had to be killed (obviously implying that Dredd didn't undergo the same process).

Dredd's from exceptionally prime stock but that's about it I think. He has been described as peak human once or twice before, but I think he is more peak of human perfection through good genes and 24/7 training ala Batman than he is experimental peak human like Captain America.

His only overt physical enhancement is bionic eyes with enhanced, telescopic sight and perfect night vision plus a 50% reduced blinking frequency.


Cheers.
Title: Re: Batman vs. Punisher hth dirty.
Post by: nu-safado on December 03, 2014, 10:28:40 AM
So let's call frank an a- while the others a+


He's too good to be a b lister and he isn't good enough to beat the guys who fight metahumans(or are metahuman) in h t hits almost as if he sees h t h as a secondary skill to the real job of killing bad guys using weapons and planning. Maybe if he dedicated all his time to hath and had resources he could hang?

He's undersold

I
Title: Re: Batman vs. Punisher hth dirty.
Post by: Dutchman on December 03, 2014, 11:28:23 AM
yeah that's what we need
more fan based definitions diversity, next we'll have A+ and A++ martial artists as well cool
Title: Re: Batman vs. Punisher hth dirty.
Post by: MTL76 on December 03, 2014, 11:38:48 AM
Being on the B-list isn't an insult. It still means someone is a phenomenal H2H fighter. They just aren't among the best in the world.
Title: Re: Batman vs. Punisher hth dirty.
Post by: Mightily Oats on December 03, 2014, 07:09:40 PM
Being on the B-list isn't an insult. It still means someone is a phenomenal H2H fighter. They just aren't among the best in the world.
bingo.

And like I said, Punisher is pretty much king of the B's.

If you beat him in hand to hand, I'd consider it pretty much an automatic pass into the A-list
Title: Re: Batman vs. Punisher hth dirty.
Post by: AP on December 03, 2014, 08:38:42 PM
Being on the B-list isn't an insult. It still means someone is a phenomenal H2H fighter. They just aren't among the best in the world.
bingo.

And like I said, Punisher is pretty much king of the B's.

If you beat him in hand to hand, I'd consider it pretty much an automatic pass into the A-list

Yep.  This is part of why I consider him sort of like the Thing of streetlevelers.  If you can overpower Thing, you're class 100.  If you can outfight Punisher, you're A-list.
Title: Re: Batman vs. Punisher hth dirty.
Post by: bender on December 03, 2014, 10:17:50 PM
you guys don't think fighting hip deep in mud doesn't help frank in this situation? I can see giving it to bats, and I agree on raw skill bats is way ahead, but this isn't a situation that favors MA type skill.
Title: Re: Batman vs. Punisher hth dirty.
Post by: AP on December 03, 2014, 10:42:10 PM
Outside of DKR, I'm sure Batman has gotten into scraps while in the mud or something similar.
Title: Re: Batman vs. Punisher hth dirty.
Post by: Mightily Oats on December 03, 2014, 10:51:12 PM
you guys don't think fighting hip deep in mud doesn't help frank in this situation? I can see giving it to bats, and I agree on raw skill bats is way ahead, but this isn't a situation that favors MA type skill.
not really, no.

It will be just like the DD fight where both were fighting like Frank.

He's going to get more licks in than he normally would, and do more damage, but ultimately, Batman is both better at punching, and at taking punches.

He might inflict a serious injury or two, if he's lucky, but he ain't winning
Title: Re: Batman vs. Punisher hth dirty.
Post by: nu-safado on December 04, 2014, 01:37:06 AM
I think the mud would favor batman because I just see Batman as a very precise fighter - Frank would be outmatched in skill and would likely use pure aggression to get his shot isn - thats batmans fight, precise, letting the other guy do aggressive things and making him pay for it, setting traps that the other fighter falls into - making himself look vulnerable when hes really preparing a counter - I know Fran does that really well, I just think that Bstman does it better

Thinking about it, I'd guess that one thing that keeps Frank from being better than a B+ or A- (high school follows you for LIFE) is that he uses guns and killing weapons - all the other top tier HTH guys are obligated to use gadetry and HTH fighting skills because they dontkill or use firearms. They have to spend all their time in every other skill besides what Frank would

He simply cant put the time in that batman would, or Nightwing, or Daredevil, or cap  do to HTH- those guys have gadet and skills - frank has those skills but at the end of the day he'll always go back to a kalshnikov and a grenade when given the chance
Title: Re: Batman vs. Punisher hth dirty.
Post by: MTL76 on December 04, 2014, 02:38:20 AM
The mud will not change the outcome.

Batman's technical superiority doesn't just come in the form of backflips or crescent kicks that would be hampered by the mud. It also means precise nerve strikes, better defense, a wider library of submission holds, superior H2H tactics, etc. The mud won't change that. Hell, just look at the mud fight in TDKR. Over-the-hill Batman was facing a younger, stronger, opponent and won because of these very things. Or in other words, the mud will hamper the Punisher more than it will Batman.

And even if Batman decided to be a retard and just slugged it out with the Punisher, he'd still win. Because for all the awesome damage soak and striking power that the Punisher has, Batman has him beat in these categories as well.
Title: Re: Batman vs. Punisher hth dirty.
Post by: Deadpool on December 16, 2014, 03:46:59 PM
bats is just a thug in a punisher comic frank wins