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Comic Forums => Marvel Zombies => Topic started by: ProjectCornDog on August 09, 2015, 10:30:31 AM

Title: Is Spider-Man beating Firelord canon?
Post by: ProjectCornDog on August 09, 2015, 10:30:31 AM
I didn't think it was until I saw a montage in a comic (I wish I remember what it was). So is Spider-Man beating Firelord canon?
Title: Re: Is Spider-Man beating Firelord canon?
Post by: AP on August 09, 2015, 10:32:41 AM
Of course.  Why wouldn't it be?
Title: Re: Is Spider-Man beating Firelord canon?
Post by: BigJayStudd on August 09, 2015, 10:32:59 AM
Yes sir. It happened in Amazing Spider-Man. No alternate versions or elseworld story.
Title: Re: Is Spider-Man beating Firelord canon?
Post by: ProjectCornDog on August 09, 2015, 10:38:36 AM
Of course.  Why wouldn't it be?

I figured, especially based on how we all are over at ICT, a lot of those crazy non-standard feats were retconned.
Title: Re: Is Spider-Man beating Firelord canon?
Post by: AP on August 09, 2015, 11:09:47 AM
Retconned by whom?  The writers and editors?  They usually don't care enough to go back to a story written 25 years ago because some b-list character got beaten up.
Title: Re: Is Spider-Man beating Firelord canon?
Post by: MTL76 on August 09, 2015, 11:19:36 AM
They also don't care about the opinions of battle boarders, nor should they.
Title: Re: Is Spider-Man beating Firelord canon?
Post by: The Shuruku Demon on August 09, 2015, 04:09:32 PM
It was referenced in Web of Spider-Man in 1991, and again in the Parker Years one-shot in 1995.

(http://i.imgur.com/zZF3GD4t.jpg) (http://imgur.com/zZF3GD4.jpg)

(http://i.imgur.com/SKX6fTet.jpg) (http://imgur.com/SKX6fTe.jpg)
Title: Re: Is Spider-Man beating Firelord canon?
Post by: ProjectCornDog on August 09, 2015, 04:11:31 PM
Spider-Man > Firelord
Title: Re: Is Spider-Man beating Firelord canon?
Post by: herochat on August 09, 2015, 04:17:20 PM
Spider-Man > Most
Title: Re: Is Spider-Man beating Firelord canon?
Post by: Dutchman on August 09, 2015, 05:18:41 PM
Why wouldn't it be

now will it get REFERENCED any time soon, probably not
Title: Re: Is Spider-Man beating Firelord canon?
Post by: Jonathanos on August 09, 2015, 07:09:34 PM
(http://i.imgur.com/SKX6fTet.jpg) (http://imgur.com/SKX6fTe.jpg)

Dang, Spidey.  Just punch Hulk in the junk, why don't you?
Title: Re: Is Spider-Man beating Firelord canon?
Post by: AP on August 10, 2015, 04:39:43 AM
(http://i.imgur.com/SKX6fTet.jpg) (http://imgur.com/SKX6fTe.jpg)

Dang, Spidey.  Just punch Hulk in the junk, why don't you?

Well,... if it works.
Title: Re: Is Spider-Man beating Firelord canon?
Post by: Dlbiininja on August 12, 2015, 12:57:05 AM
(http://i.imgur.com/SKX6fTet.jpg) (http://imgur.com/SKX6fTe.jpg)

Dang, Spidey.  Just punch Hulk in the junk, why don't you?

That wasn't a punch.  He found Hulk Knocked out and tried reviving him ala catholic priest toucha the junk style.
Title: Re: Is Spider-Man beating Firelord canon?
Post by: Average John on August 13, 2015, 10:53:53 AM
(http://i.imgur.com/SKX6fTet.jpg) (http://imgur.com/SKX6fTe.jpg)

Dang, Spidey.  Just punch Hulk in the junk, why don't you?

That wasn't a punch.  He found Hulk Knocked out and tried reviving him ala catholic priest toucha the junk style.


LLLLLLLLLLLLLOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Title: Re: Is Spider-Man beating Firelord canon?
Post by: Kang Council on August 27, 2015, 01:49:57 PM
Of course.  Why wouldn't it be?

I figured, especially based on how we all are over at ICT, a lot of those crazy non-standard feats were retconned.

Firelord was weakened, so it wasn't PIS.
Title: Re: Is Spider-Man beating Firelord canon?
Post by: herochat on August 27, 2015, 05:49:11 PM
(http://i.imgur.com/SKX6fTet.jpg) (http://imgur.com/SKX6fTe.jpg)

Dang, Spidey.  Just punch Hulk in the junk, why don't you?

That wasn't a punch.  He found Hulk Knocked out and tried reviving him ala catholic priest toucha the junk style.


LLLLLLLLLLLLLOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

SO TOPICAL!!!!!!!!! LOLIKIKIKIKIKILOLOLOKIKOKKKKKLKKLOLOLOLOLOL
Title: Re: Is Spider-Man beating Firelord canon?
Post by: Hamburglar on August 28, 2015, 01:43:17 AM
AJ is so far down the pecking order that he's below Thorne's fourth alt account
Title: Re: Is Spider-Man beating Firelord canon?
Post by: herochat on August 28, 2015, 01:45:47 AM
I hope David L. Bennett III dies
Title: Re: Is Spider-Man beating Firelord canon?
Post by: Dlbiininja on August 28, 2015, 02:35:29 AM
I hope David L. Bennett III dies

I'm still waiting for you to play your part Final Destination and catch Lepropsy from the neck up.  I'm sure it'll work wonders for you skin.  Right after your head falls off the rest of us can use it for the Zombie pool soccer matches we've been prepping for behind your back. 
Title: Re: Is Spider-Man beating Firelord canon?
Post by: herochat on August 28, 2015, 04:11:06 AM
Why do you capitalize random words?
Title: Re: Is Spider-Man beating Firelord canon?
Post by: ProjectCornDog on August 28, 2015, 09:38:38 AM
Of course.  Why wouldn't it be?

I figured, especially based on how we all are over at ICT, a lot of those crazy non-standard feats were retconned.

Firelord was weakened, so it wasn't PIS.

When in the story was he weakened?
Title: Re: Is Spider-Man beating Firelord canon?
Post by: g-train on August 28, 2015, 01:14:27 PM
Of course.  Why wouldn't it be?

I figured, especially based on how we all are over at ICT, a lot of those crazy non-standard feats were retconned.

Firelord was weakened, so it wasn't PIS.

When in the story was he weakened?

Wasn't there some kind of gas pipe explosion or something?
Title: Re: Is Spider-Man beating Firelord canon?
Post by: ProjectCornDog on August 28, 2015, 02:03:04 PM
Of course.  Why wouldn't it be?

I figured, especially based on how we all are over at ICT, a lot of those crazy non-standard feats were retconned.

Firelord was weakened, so it wasn't PIS.

When in the story was he weakened?

Wasn't there some kind of gas pipe explosion or something?

I have to reread it, but I don't remember the fight starting off with a weakened Firelord.
Title: Re: Is Spider-Man beating Firelord canon?
Post by: Average John on August 28, 2015, 04:28:35 PM
AJ is so far down the pecking order that he's below Thorne's fourth alt account

I've got my finger on the pulse of this board.
Title: Re: Is Spider-Man beating Firelord canon?
Post by: Average John on August 28, 2015, 04:29:19 PM
(http://i.imgur.com/SKX6fTet.jpg) (http://imgur.com/SKX6fTe.jpg)

Dang, Spidey.  Just punch Hulk in the junk, why don't you?

That wasn't a punch.  He found Hulk Knocked out and tried reviving him ala catholic priest toucha the junk style.


LLLLLLLLLLLLLOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

SO TOPICAL!!!!!!!!! LOLIKIKIKIKIKILOLOLOKIKOKKKKKLKKLOLOLOLOLOL

Yes. He added so much to the thread, I had to let him know.
Title: Re: Is Spider-Man beating Firelord canon?
Post by: Jonathanos on August 28, 2015, 07:05:27 PM
I have to reread it, but I don't remember the fight starting off with a weakened Firelord.

He wasn't weakened in the beginning.

He did seem rocked after he crashed through some buildings earlier in the fight, but he recovered quickly.

Before the speedblitz that put him down, Firelord was caught in the explosion of a gas station.  When the dust cleared, Firelord was on the ground, unmoving.  That turned out to be a trick to lure Spidey into the open.  He wasn't really hurt.
Title: Re: Is Spider-Man beating Firelord canon?
Post by: ProjectCornDog on August 29, 2015, 12:43:19 AM
I have to reread it, but I don't remember the fight starting off with a weakened Firelord.

He wasn't weakened in the beginning.

He did seem rocked after he crashed through some buildings earlier in the fight, but he recovered quickly.

Before the speedblitz that put him down, Firelord was caught in the explosion of a gas station.  When the dust cleared, Firelord was on the ground, unmoving.  That turned out to be a trick to lure Spidey into the open.  He wasn't really hurt.

Dude, fuck it. I have to say, I love that issue. I don't care how far-fetched it is, it was too good lol.
Title: Re: Is Spider-Man beating Firelord canon?
Post by: Jonathanos on August 29, 2015, 08:43:12 PM
I like those issues myself.  I've seen enough comics where Spidey takes down guys physically comparable that it doesn't bother me.
Title: Re: Is Spider-Man beating Firelord canon?
Post by: g-train on August 30, 2015, 01:30:34 PM
Why do you capitalize random words?

He's a 90's kid.
Title: Re: Is Spider-Man beating Firelord canon?
Post by: Dutchman on August 30, 2015, 03:30:16 PM
OR HE'S SECRETLY WILL SMITH'S KID
Title: Re: Is Spider-Man beating Firelord canon?
Post by: Upper_Krust on August 30, 2015, 06:34:51 PM
He wasn't weakened in the beginning.

He did seem rocked after he crashed through some buildings earlier in the fight, but he recovered quickly.

Before the speedblitz that put him down, Firelord was caught in the explosion of a gas station.  When the dust cleared, Firelord was on the ground, unmoving.  That turned out to be a trick to lure Spidey into the open.  He wasn't really hurt.

Exploding Gas Stations have been known to fell even the toughest heroes. ;)
Title: Re: Is Spider-Man beating Firelord canon?
Post by: Kang Council on August 30, 2015, 06:51:26 PM
Of course.  Why wouldn't it be?

I figured, especially based on how we all are over at ICT, a lot of those crazy non-standard feats were retconned.

Firelord was weakened, so it wasn't PIS.

When in the story was he weakened?
  Can't remember somebody was telling me the issue, was having a prob with a planetoid etc, but he was weakened even before coming to earth think he came there for a rest.
Title: Re: Is Spider-Man beating Firelord canon?
Post by: The Shuruku Demon on September 06, 2015, 02:23:13 PM
Can't remember somebody was telling me the issue, was having a prob with a planetoid etc, but he was weakened even before coming to earth think he came there for a rest.

Here's the scene in question. Not what I'd call evidence of a character being in a "weakened condition" per se.

(http://i.imgur.com/CUtCbf8t.jpg) (http://imgur.com/CUtCbf8.jpg) (http://i.imgur.com/D1yz0kst.jpg) (http://imgur.com/D1yz0ks.jpg) (http://i.imgur.com/PhV6bTvt.jpg) (http://imgur.com/PhV6bTv.jpg)
Title: Re: Is Spider-Man beating Firelord canon?
Post by: Kang Council on September 06, 2015, 02:31:24 PM
Can't remember somebody was telling me the issue, was having a prob with a planetoid etc, but he was weakened even before coming to earth think he came there for a rest.

Here's the scene in question. Not what I'd call evidence of a character being in a "weakened condition" per se.

(http://i.imgur.com/CUtCbf8t.jpg) (http://imgur.com/CUtCbf8.jpg) (http://i.imgur.com/D1yz0kst.jpg) (http://imgur.com/D1yz0ks.jpg) (http://i.imgur.com/PhV6bTvt.jpg) (http://imgur.com/PhV6bTv.jpg)

Yea see what you mean....gotta admit when 2 super heroes fight each other they always tend to have some thing were you can say this guy wasn't at 100%.  So I suspect it was a rubbish way of showing it.  Maybe were missing something.

EDIT:  I do think destroying something the size of a small planet would generally weaken a high herald character though, they tend to max out at planet wide feats.
Title: Re: Is Spider-Man beating Firelord canon?
Post by: The Shuruku Demon on September 06, 2015, 02:58:44 PM
Always thought the "small planet" line was hyperbole. It doesn't even look the size of a house, the way it's drawn. And I don't get the impression the feat was a major exertion for Firelord either.
Title: Re: Is Spider-Man beating Firelord canon?
Post by: XerxesTWD on September 06, 2015, 03:05:01 PM
It was obviously far away.
Title: Re: Is Spider-Man beating Firelord canon?
Post by: The Shuruku Demon on September 06, 2015, 03:57:34 PM
In the panel where we get the clearest view of it, it appears to be closer to the reader than Firelord is. We see Firelord's front, not his back, as he's preparing to blast it.

(http://i.imgur.com/Txff5I1.jpg)
Title: Re: Is Spider-Man beating Firelord canon?
Post by: Rufio on September 06, 2015, 04:16:24 PM
I always assumed the artist screwed up the perspective and didn't have time to fix it before it got published.
Title: Re: Is Spider-Man beating Firelord canon?
Post by: Kang Council on September 06, 2015, 06:06:09 PM
Always thought the "small planet" line was hyperbole. It doesn't even look the size of a house, the way it's drawn. And I don't get the impression the feat was a major exertion for Firelord either.

Nah in hindsight Firelord was weakened and I think I'm being too generous.  First of all writers always find a way when two super heroes fight to have circumstances that indicate that both or one of them are weakened.  If that thing was the size of a small planet....that would explain it.  Writers aren't always going to spell it out for you.

Also Firelord's ego is in effect.  He doesn't want to admit the reason why he doesn't want to chase the meteroites is because he's tired and what clinches it for me it what he says about earth.  Firelord has been all over the universe and all of a sudden earth has the best delights in the whole cosmos????  Lies, really he wants to go to earth because he's tired but won't admit it.
Title: Re: Is Spider-Man beating Firelord canon?
Post by: The Shuruku Demon on September 06, 2015, 09:04:20 PM
We really can't be sure how large the writer intended the meteor to be. Hyperbole is quite common in comics, so it's strange to see that explanation being so casually brushed aside as if it isn't a realistic possibility. And even if that thing was the size of a mountain or bigger (which requires it to be many times larger than it was drawn), Firelord doesn't act like a character who was going all-out, or anything close to it.
Title: Re: Is Spider-Man beating Firelord canon?
Post by: Rufio on September 07, 2015, 12:19:04 AM
It was written by Tom Defalco and he was very clear in the issue that Spider-Man got a lucky win and Firelord would typically be a tough fight for the Avengers.

The same Tom Defalco wrote the Silver Surfer busting a "planet" that Korvac created around him, Hyperion pushing Wonder Man through a small planet's core, and Thor containing a bomb that would've destroyed 1/5 of the universe. Except for Thor, none of the above struggled with these feats. I think the more likely explanation is that Defalco likes to give top tiers their space cheese.

The alternate explanation is that Firelord feared that colliding with a small asteroid would kill him. I don't think that fits with Defalco's body of work--he even had Iron Man crushing a mountain that Terrax hoisted.
Title: Re: Is Spider-Man beating Firelord canon?
Post by: AP on September 07, 2015, 03:10:50 AM
Also in regards to the art, it would be hard to show a planetoid-sized meteor flying toward a normal sized guy.
Title: Re: Is Spider-Man beating Firelord canon?
Post by: Upper_Krust on September 07, 2015, 01:58:32 PM
As regards Spidey vs. Firelord. While I initially thought the idea of it was nonsensical. Now that I have discovered Firelord was only in the 50-ton bracket (as opposed to a peer of Surfer himself) I'm actually okay with it.
Title: Re: Is Spider-Man beating Firelord canon?
Post by: The Shuruku Demon on September 07, 2015, 02:19:57 PM
It was written by Tom Defalco and he was very clear in the issue that Spider-Man got a lucky win and Firelord would typically be a tough fight for the Avengers.

The same Tom Defalco wrote the Silver Surfer busting a "planet" that Korvac created around him, Hyperion pushing Wonder Man through a small planet's core, and Thor containing a bomb that would've destroyed 1/5 of the universe. Except for Thor, none of the above struggled with these feats. I think the more likely explanation is that Defalco likes to give top tiers their space cheese.

In this particular case, I think he was deliberately showcasing Firelord's power to make it clear why Spider-Man beating him was a big deal. We take it for granted that everyone on forums like this knows who Firelord is, but back in the mid '80s, I'm sure there were alot of Spidey readers who knew little or nothing about the character before he appeared in that title (it was the first Firelord appearance I personally read). So it makes sense that DeFalco would want to establish what he was capable of early on.

The alternate explanation is that Firelord feared that colliding with a small asteroid would kill him. I don't think that fits with Defalco's body of work--he even had Iron Man crushing a mountain that Terrax hoisted.

But Iron Man flew into it, rather than it flying into him (meaning he had some control over the strength of the impact). And it still pretty much totalled his armour. Also, Firelord was stunned by inadvertently flying through an abandoned tenement, and ultimately KOed by a ten tonner, so it's not like his durability was obviously insanely high in this story.

One of the things I most strongly associate with DeFalco is his apparent love and respect for the Stan Lee era of Marvel Comics, and the extent to which that is reflected in his writing style. With that in mind, he'd almost certainly read the old Silver Surfer issue in which Spider-Man appeared. And in that issue, a couple of room-sized meteors appeared to present a very real danger to the Surfer. Even a fragment of one of them flying at him after he destroyed them was enough to knock him out cold. I'd be surprised if this story wasn't an influence on DeFalco's to some extent, considering the obvious parallels.

(http://i.imgur.com/5N4YjcSt.jpg) (http://imgur.com/5N4YjcS.jpg) (http://i.imgur.com/5JYGaBJt.jpg) (http://imgur.com/5JYGaBJ.jpg) (http://i.imgur.com/E1Q9Flnt.jpg) (http://imgur.com/E1Q9Fln.jpg) (http://i.imgur.com/75dqtndt.jpg) (http://imgur.com/75dqtnd.jpg)





Also in regards to the art, it would be hard to show a planetoid-sized meteor flying toward a normal sized guy.

I agree, but Frenz could've made it look alot bigger than it did by a simple shift in perspective, putting Firelord in the foreground, with the meteor travelling toward the reader, rather than the other way around.

In any case, I allow some margin for error with these things. I could buy that this object was perhaps as large as a mountain. But I can't comfortably buy that it was anywhere near as big as the Earth or the Moon, say, because that requires too far a deviation from what actually appeared on the page.

It's not like it needs to be as large as the Earth or the Moon for the feat to be impressive and meaningful, regardless. In Spider-Man, we're talking about a character who was used to going up against the likes of Doctor Octopus and Hobgoblin. Compared to that, Firelord looks like a monster even if the rock he blew up was only the size of a house.





As regards Spidey vs. Firelord. While I initially thought the idea of it was nonsensical. Now that I have discovered Firelord was only in the 50-ton bracket (as opposed to a peer of Surfer himself) I'm actually okay with it.

That was his official ranking at the time, in a bio published just a couple of years before the story. One could debate whether it's an accurate ranking, but regardless, it's very possible that it was an influence on how the writer chose to portray the match-up.

In the Avengers issue which followed up on this story, the Black Knight was shown thinking to himself that it was incredible that Spider-Man could beat Firelord even if he was only half as powerful as the Surfer. Perhaps that shouldn't be taken literally, but it seemed to me like the writer (Roger Stern, in this case) was trying to allow for the possibility that Firelord and the Surfer were not truly on the same level.
Title: Re: Is Spider-Man beating Firelord canon?
Post by: Upper_Krust on September 08, 2015, 12:44:30 PM
As regards Spidey vs. Firelord. While I initially thought the idea of it was nonsensical. Now that I have discovered Firelord was only in the 50-ton bracket (as opposed to a peer of Surfer himself) I'm actually okay with it.

That was his official ranking at the time, in a bio published just a couple of years before the story. One could debate whether it's an accurate ranking, but regardless, it's very possible that it was an influence on how the writer chose to portray the match-up.

In the Avengers issue which followed up on this story, the Black Knight was shown thinking to himself that it was incredible that Spider-Man could beat Firelord even if he was only half as powerful as the Surfer. Perhaps that shouldn't be taken literally, but it seemed to me like the writer (Roger Stern, in this case) was trying to allow for the possibility that Firelord and the Surfer were not truly on the same level.

I always thought the heralds were all in the same 'ball-park' with Surfer and Morg maybe a shade ahead, but the 50-ton Firelord thing was new to me.

Spidey < Luke Cage < Firelord

So to me its only a two tier difference.

I agree about the literal context of the 'half as powerful as Surfer'. That seems to be what's happened. Then they have taken the flawed Marvel strength charts and just halved Surfer's tonnage.

Given that Surfer's power is easily Multi-Megaton range, half of that would still be in the megaton range. Of course that is a discussion for another time on the merits of feat scale vs. fight scale.
Title: Re: Is Spider-Man beating Firelord canon?
Post by: The Shuruku Demon on September 08, 2015, 04:04:50 PM
The Heralds were always ranked differently in the Handbooks. Frankie Raye Nova at 40 tons, Firelord at 50, and Terrax at 75. Air-Walker wasn't given a figure, but it was said that he could match the Thing's strength, which was listed at 85 tons level. Surfer wasn't given a figure either, but it was said that he could increase his strength to rival the Hulk's, who was given a base level of 90 tons, increasing from there with no established upper limit. Morg's first strength ranking came in the Master Edition, where it was listed at Incalculable (defined as the ability to lift in excess of 100 tons).

All this said, the Handbooks are far from 100% reliable, and some characters have had wildly different rankings in different editions. One of the most glaring errors is Doctor Doom, who was listed at a mere 2 tons level, but has been show to rival Iron Man in strength. Even Iron Man himself was listed at a mere 11 tons in the original volume, that figure being bumped up to 70-90 tons in later editions. Tony stated in one comic that his armour was capable of lifting 85 tons.
Title: Re: Is Spider-Man beating Firelord canon?
Post by: Upper_Krust on September 08, 2015, 05:17:56 PM
The Heralds were always ranked differently in the Handbooks. Frankie Raye Nova at 40 tons, Firelord at 50, and Terrax at 75. Air-Walker wasn't given a figure, but it was said that he could match the Thing's strength, which was listed at 85 tons level. Surfer wasn't given a figure either, but it was said that he could increase his strength to rival the Hulk's, who was given a base level of 90 tons, increasing from there with no established upper limit. Morg's first strength ranking came in the Master Edition, where it was listed at Incalculable (defined as the ability to lift in excess of 100 tons).

All this said, the Handbooks are far from 100% reliable, and some characters have had wildly different rankings in different editions. One of the most glaring errors is Doctor Doom, who was listed at a mere 2 tons level, but has been show to rival Iron Man in strength. Even Iron Man himself was listed at a mere 11 tons in the original volume, that figure being bumped up to 70-90 tons in later editions. Tony stated in one comic that his armour was capable of lifting 85 tons.

I thought that figure for Doom looked suspiciously weak. There is no reason why Doom's armour would ever be inferior to Iron Man's. It makes sense that they would be roughly the same.

I wonder does Doom have his own Hulkbuster Armour?  ;D
Title: Re: Is Spider-Man beating Firelord canon?
Post by: Rufio on September 11, 2015, 11:54:15 PM

In this particular case, I think he was deliberately showcasing Firelord's power to make it clear why Spider-Man beating him was a big deal. We take it for granted that everyone on forums like this knows who Firelord is, but back in the mid '80s, I'm sure there were alot of Spidey readers who knew little or nothing about the character before he appeared in that title (it was the first Firelord appearance I personally read). So it makes sense that DeFalco would want to establish what he was capable of early on.

I agree with that. I don't really think it alters my point that Defalco liked to write top tiers doing big feats in space. Unless you don't think he considered Firelord a top tier, it seems logical to take Defalco's general pattern and assume that it applies here.

But Iron Man flew into it, rather than it flying into him (meaning he had some control over the strength of the impact). And it still pretty much totalled his armour. Also, Firelord was stunned by inadvertently flying through an abandoned tenement, and ultimately KOed by a ten tonner, so it's not like his durability was obviously insanely high in this story.

Defalco also wrote Spider-Man's speedblitz almost KOing Thor and stunning The Silver Surfer, even though Surfer was cushioned from the blows by the Carnage symbiote. This is despite the fact that Defalco wrote The Silver Surfer no-selling a fireball from Korvac that was compared to a star, IIRC. He also wrote Wonder Man's punches shaking an asteroid the size of a small planet and getting pushed through the planetoid by Hyperion. Do you think Defalco placed Wonder Man above Thor and Firelord?

As far as being stunned by the tenement, that's also consistent with Defalco's writing in my view. When Thor was on earth, Defalco wrote Thor struggling to hold up a building. When Thor was in space, Defalco wrote Thor containing a bomb that could destroy 1/5 of the universe.

IMO, this is a writer who generally gives all top tiers big feats when they're in space but tones them down when they're on Earth so that the environment can give them problems.



One of the things I most strongly associate with DeFalco is his apparent love and respect for the Stan Lee era of Marvel Comics, and the extent to which that is reflected in his writing style. With that in mind, he'd almost certainly read the old Silver Surfer issue in which Spider-Man appeared. And in that issue, a couple of room-sized meteors appeared to present a very real danger to the Surfer. Even a fragment of one of them flying at him after he destroyed them was enough to knock him out cold. I'd be surprised if this story wasn't an influence on DeFalco's to some extent, considering the obvious parallels.

To be honest, I never saw the stories as being that similar. But I suppose it fits.


That was his official ranking at the time, in a bio published just a couple of years before the story. One could debate whether it's an accurate ranking, but regardless, it's very possible that it was an influence on how the writer chose to portray the match-up.

In the Avengers issue which followed up on this story, the Black Knight was shown thinking to himself that it was incredible that Spider-Man could beat Firelord even if he was only half as powerful as the Surfer. Perhaps that shouldn't be taken literally, but it seemed to me like the writer (Roger Stern, in this case) was trying to allow for the possibility that Firelord and the Surfer were not truly on the same level.

I don't think this explanation works for the simple reason that the same writer had Masterson Thor in danger of a KO from Spider-Man's speedblitz when he didn't appear to be attacking Thor with anything close to the desperation and ferocity he attacked Firelord with. Similarly, Defalco wrote Spider-Man sending Carnage-Surfer to the floor with a quick blitz. If the scene really depended on Firelord being a 50-tonner, he's a 50-tonner who doesn't look worse than these 100-tonners by comparison.

The handbook ranking really had no history to support it, either. Firelord had already done just fine trading punches with Hercules and grappling with Thor several times. He'd also been surprise blasted by Havok and shrugged it off easily. Going into the Spider-Man fight, Firelord's track record for strength and durability was arguably more consistent than Surfer's. I'll grant that the Roger Stern follow-up seemed to downplay Firelord, especially with his reaction after Hercules' sucker punch, although part of that could be attributed to having just woken up.

Personally, I find it implausible that Tom Defalco would write Spider-Man running for his life from a 50-tonner, acknowledging how hopeless the fight is for him, and essentially winning due to luck. If Defalco decided to give Spider-Man a win over Iron Man, I doubt that it would be written as this spectacle of being hopelessly outmatched. The writer was explicit that Spider-Man beating Firelord was the equivalent of being struck by lightning, winning the lottery, or surviving glioblastoma or a bite from a Black Mamba.
Title: Re: Is Spider-Man beating Firelord canon?
Post by: The Shuruku Demon on September 13, 2015, 10:23:16 AM
In this particular case, I think he was deliberately showcasing Firelord's power to make it clear why Spider-Man beating him was a big deal. We take it for granted that everyone on forums like this knows who Firelord is, but back in the mid '80s, I'm sure there were alot of Spidey readers who knew little or nothing about the character before he appeared in that title (it was the first Firelord appearance I personally read). So it makes sense that DeFalco would want to establish what he was capable of early on.

I agree with that. I don't really think it alters my point that Defalco liked to write top tiers doing big feats in space. Unless you don't think he considered Firelord a top tier, it seems logical to take Defalco's general pattern and assume that it applies here.

Wasn't disagreeing with what you said, just adding to it.

But Iron Man flew into it, rather than it flying into him (meaning he had some control over the strength of the impact). And it still pretty much totalled his armour. Also, Firelord was stunned by inadvertently flying through an abandoned tenement, and ultimately KOed by a ten tonner, so it's not like his durability was obviously insanely high in this story.

Defalco also wrote Spider-Man's speedblitz almost KOing Thor and stunning The Silver Surfer, even though Surfer was cushioned from the blows by the Carnage symbiote. This is despite the fact that Defalco wrote The Silver Surfer no-selling a fireball from Korvac that was compared to a star, IIRC. He also wrote Wonder Man's punches shaking an asteroid the size of a small planet and getting pushed through the planetoid by Hyperion. Do you think Defalco placed Wonder Man above Thor and Firelord?

As far as being stunned by the tenement, that's also consistent with Defalco's writing in my view. When Thor was on earth, Defalco wrote Thor struggling to hold up a building. When Thor was in space, Defalco wrote Thor containing a bomb that could destroy 1/5 of the universe.

IMO, this is a writer who generally gives all top tiers big feats when they're in space but tones them down when they're on Earth so that the environment can give them problems.

I'd assume that Firelord (under DeFalco, or anyone else) is supposed to be equally tough/strong on Earth as he is in space. But characters often perform differently based on what they're up against at the time. If Spidey needed to KO a top-tier under DeFalco, he conceivably could. But he could also hurt his hand punching the Puma, and have a barn burner of a fight with the Hobgoblin under the same writer.

Likewise, I think the Surfer could probably withstand the heat of a star under DeFalco, yet could still conceivably be injured by the impact of a meteor shooting along at incredible speeds. Spider-Man has no business KOing a being who could just tank something like that. Aunt May Mode Spider-Man could pummel the ground for ten days straight, and not come close to reproducing the damage of a major meteor strike.

One of the things I most strongly associate with DeFalco is his apparent love and respect for the Stan Lee era of Marvel Comics, and the extent to which that is reflected in his writing style. With that in mind, he'd almost certainly read the old Silver Surfer issue in which Spider-Man appeared. And in that issue, a couple of room-sized meteors appeared to present a very real danger to the Surfer. Even a fragment of one of them flying at him after he destroyed them was enough to knock him out cold. I'd be surprised if this story wasn't an influence on DeFalco's to some extent, considering the obvious parallels.

To be honest, I never saw the stories as being that similar. But I suppose it fits.

The two stories as a whole aren't that similar, but the opening scenes are. I'd be very surprised if DeFalco didn't have the Surfer issue in mind to some extent. He regularly payed homage to stories from that era, and this was the only precedent for how Spidey might fare against a Herald prior to his tale. There's also a panel in ASM #270 that strongly resembles a panel from SS #14 in composition, although that may have been solely down to Ron Frenz.

That was his official ranking at the time, in a bio published just a couple of years before the story. One could debate whether it's an accurate ranking, but regardless, it's very possible that it was an influence on how the writer chose to portray the match-up.

In the Avengers issue which followed up on this story, the Black Knight was shown thinking to himself that it was incredible that Spider-Man could beat Firelord even if he was only half as powerful as the Surfer. Perhaps that shouldn't be taken literally, but it seemed to me like the writer (Roger Stern, in this case) was trying to allow for the possibility that Firelord and the Surfer were not truly on the same level.

I don't think this explanation works for the simple reason that the same writer had Masterson Thor in danger of a KO from Spider-Man's speedblitz when he didn't appear to be attacking Thor with anything close to the desperation and ferocity he attacked Firelord with. Similarly, Defalco wrote Spider-Man sending Carnage-Surfer to the floor with a quick blitz. If the scene really depended on Firelord being a 50-tonner, he's a 50-tonner who doesn't look worse than these 100-tonners by comparison.

DeFalco and Stern don't have to be entirely on the same page in that respect. I don't know if either one literally viewed Firelord as a 50 tonner at the time, but the Handbook did seem to influence some later stories. In AVENGERS #252 (authored by Stern), it was stated that Doc Samson's power level was 70% of the Hulk's. Seems likely that this was based in part or in whole on Samson's 70 ton strength listing in the original Handbook. In AVENGERS annual #13 (also authored by Stern), Captain America stated that the psuedo-Hulks were about 80% as strong as the real Hulk, which made them nearly 200 times stronger than him. 80 tons divided by 200 equals 800 pounds, Cap's OHOTMU stat.

The handbook ranking really had no history to support it, either. Firelord had already done just fine trading punches with Hercules and grappling with Thor several times. He'd also been surprise blasted by Havok and shrugged it off easily. Going into the Spider-Man fight, Firelord's track record for strength and durability was arguably more consistent than Surfer's. I'll grant that the Roger Stern follow-up seemed to downplay Firelord, especially with his reaction after Hercules' sucker punch, although part of that could be attributed to having just woken up.

Personally, I find it implausible that Tom Defalco would write Spider-Man running for his life from a 50-tonner, acknowledging how hopeless the fight is for him, and essentially winning due to luck. If Defalco decided to give Spider-Man a win over Iron Man, I doubt that it would be written as this spectacle of being hopelessly outmatched. The writer was explicit that Spider-Man beating Firelord was the equivalent of being struck by lightning, winning the lottery, or surviving glioblastoma or a bite from a Black Mamba.

I'm not saying the OHOMTU figure was right, just that it may been an influence on the story. As I said before, characters tend to vary depending on what they're up against at the time. So sure, DeFalco's Spidey later proved he could hurt and floor 100 tonners, but it doesn't follow that a 50 tonner couldn't possibly have had him on the run, especially if that character was basically a cosmic version of the Human Torch. It's not like Firelord offered to put 'em up and go HtH, Marquess of Queensberry rules.
Title: Re: Is Spider-Man beating Firelord canon?
Post by: Rufio on September 13, 2015, 10:36:51 PM
DeFalco and Stern don't have to be entirely on the same page in that respect. I don't know if either one literally viewed Firelord as a 50 tonner at the time, but the Handbook did seem to influence some later stories. In AVENGERS #252 (authored by Stern), it was stated that Doc Samson's power level was 70% of the Hulk's. Seems likely that this was based in part or in whole on Samson's 70 ton strength listing in the original Handbook. In AVENGERS annual #13 (also authored by Stern), Captain America stated that the psuedo-Hulks were about 80% as strong as the real Hulk, which made them nearly 200 times stronger than him. 80 tons divided by 200 equals 800 pounds, Cap's OHOTMU stat.

Fair enough, maybe it had more of an influence on Stern.

The only writer who I think made Firelord weaker than other Heralds is Ron Marz. His Firelord looked significantly weaker than Terrax and much weaker than Morg. Oddly, he had Firelord flash KO The Silver Surfer with two attacks. Surfer woke up and put Firelord down more definitively, but he still looked more powerful in that issue than in his other Marz appearances.

I'm not saying the OHOMTU figure was right, just that it may been an influence on the story. As I said before, characters tend to vary depending on what they're up against at the time. So sure, DeFalco's Spidey later proved he could hurt and floor  100 tonners, but it doesn't follow that a 50 tonner couldn't possibly have had him on the run, especially if that character was basically a cosmic version of the Human Torch. It's not like Firelord offered to put 'em up and go HtH, Marquess of Queensberry rules.

But at the time the story was written, Firelord had an established and consistent power level. In his first appearance he fought Hercules, then Hercules and Thor at the same time. In his next appearances, he had an even skirmish with Loki and 3 more even fights with Thor. He also crushed The X-Men, even shrugging off a joint attack from Havok and Polaris. He was proven to be less powerful than Phoenix Jean Grey, but he bounced back from all of her attacks and was ready to keep fighting when she left. Unlike Terrax, Firelord had not yet been established as less powerful than Surfer. Thor had even said Firelord was the "undisputed master" of the Power Cosmic and admitted he couldn't beat Firelord because they were so evenly matched.

I'm not saying someone like Iron Man couldn't have Spider-Man on the run, but I don't think the situation would be built up as such a hopeless mismatch. Defalco's purpose in writing the story seemed to be: "Hey reader, you know all those times Spider-Man did okay for awhile against a top tier threat? He wasn't just delaying the inevitable. Believe it or not, he really has a chance of winning if his opponent isn't careful." When the letters column addressed the story, one of the readers said this (more or less).

I think most people don't appreciate the lengths Defalco went took to establish that he was writing an unlikely result. This wasn't Deathstroke or Batman vs the JLA, or Black Panther vs Silver Surfer, or Spider-Man + cement truck vs The Hulk. The writer couldn't have been clearer that Spider-Man would usually need someone to save him from Firelord.
Title: Re: Is Spider-Man beating Firelord canon?
Post by: The Shuruku Demon on September 14, 2015, 10:01:48 AM
I think Firelord would still be a scarier opponent than Iron Man even as a 50 tonner. He blew up a meteor which may or may not have been as large as a small planet, and indicated that he was capable of obliterating NYC with one blast. That's a level of damage output way beyond anything Tony is capable of. Also, Tony would try to bring Peter down with non-lethal methods, whereas Firelord didn't seem to have any reservations about turning him into cinders.

And then there's the whole "Herald" tag -- as soon as Spidey discovered he was a former Herald of Galactus, that in itself seemed to change how he viewed Firelord, who he was not showing much respect to beforehand.

It's entirely possible that DeFalco intended Firelord to be closer to the 75 or even 100 ton mark. But there's really no way to know that from what was written. Also, while I personally would've gone with a figure of 75 tons at least based on Firelord's prior appearances, someone at Marvel decided to give him a lower figure, which shows it's possible to come to a different conclusion, even if you and I don't agree with that conclusion.
Title: Re: Is Spider-Man beating Firelord canon?
Post by: Rufio on September 15, 2015, 09:34:02 AM
I think Firelord would still be a scarier opponent than Iron Man even as a 50 tonner. He blew up a meteor which may or may not have been as large as a small planet, and indicated that he was capable of obliterating NYC with one blast. That's a level of damage output way beyond anything Tony is capable of. Also, Tony would try to bring Peter down with non-lethal methods, whereas Firelord didn't seem to have any reservations about turning him into cinders.

And then there's the whole "Herald" tag -- as soon as Spidey discovered he was a former Herald of Galactus, that in itself seemed to change how he viewed Firelord, who he was not showing much respect to beforehand.

It's entirely possible that DeFalco intended Firelord to be closer to the 75 or even 100 ton mark. But there's really no way to know that from what was written. Also, while I personally would've gone with a figure of 75 tons at least based on Firelord's prior appearances, someone at Marvel decided to give him a lower figure, which shows it's possible to come to a different conclusion, even if you and I don't agree with that conclusion.

I'm curious - do you really think Firelord looked weaker than The Thing in his fight with Hercules and his 4 fights with Thor that occurred before the Spider-Man fight?

IMO if you read those fights, it isn't that clear cut that he's weaker than Thor or Hercules at all, much less below Wonder Man, much less below The Thing.

There's a moment in his final fight with Thor where Thor says that his strength is being sapped by Firelord's flame. Before Thor says this, they were grappling evenly. After Thor says this, Firelord starts overpowering Thor and places him in a chokehold.

If his strength were Thing level or below, I'd expect him to be overpowered by Thor until the flames sapped Thor's strength. I wouldn't expect it to even when Thor wasn't complaining about the flames, then switch to Firelord out grappling Thor when Thor started weakening. But that's what happened.


Firelord does have some lower strength showings, but to my knowledge they all occurred after the Spider-Man fight.
Title: Re: Is Spider-Man beating Firelord canon?
Post by: The Shuruku Demon on September 15, 2015, 12:09:21 PM
I wouldn't say Firelord looked obviously weaker than the Thing in his prior showings, no. I threw the 75 ton mark out there as a minimum estimate, based on the early showings. I could see him as high as low Class 100, based on the same showings.
Title: Re: Is Spider-Man beating Firelord canon?
Post by: ProjectCornDog on March 28, 2017, 06:58:01 PM
Spider-Man > Firelord

Memories.
Title: Re: Is Spider-Man beating Firelord canon?
Post by: Dlbiininja on March 29, 2017, 04:42:56 PM
Spider-Man > Firelord

Memories.

Let me guess!  Couldn't find anything from the '99 wizard boards. 

And yes this was a good fight.  Even impressed Herc.  Who the. Cussed Firelord out.
Title: Re: Is Spider-Man beating Firelord canon?
Post by: ProjectCornDog on March 29, 2017, 08:33:12 PM
This one caught my eye cuz i just asked at KMC if this Spidey feat was better than Cannonball's Gladiator feat.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f77/t641219.html

Looks like this one's the better feat.

I'd say so yes, and as mentioned earlier in this thread this fight was mentioned many years later more than once.
Title: Re: Is Spider-Man beating Firelord canon?
Post by: The Shuruku Demon on July 16, 2017, 10:53:37 AM
(http://imgur.com/fGJUfLA.jpg)
Title: Re: Is Spider-Man beating Firelord canon?
Post by: Hamburglar on July 17, 2017, 10:43:21 AM
hahahhaa that's good shit
Title: Re: Is Spider-Man beating Firelord canon?
Post by: MTL76 on July 17, 2017, 10:57:08 AM
That's how these kind of things should be handled. Not whacko clone excuses made out of insecurity a la Starlin.
Title: Re: Is Spider-Man beating Firelord canon?
Post by: Deadpool on August 22, 2017, 08:57:18 AM
Yes I believe it is,