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General Forums => Debate => Topic started by: AP on October 16, 2018, 04:19:22 PM

Title: So let's talk about Elizabeth Warren's DNA test.
Post by: AP on October 16, 2018, 04:19:22 PM
Will this hurt or hinder her in the long run?  Should she have done the DNA test or not?  Will Trump cough up the 1 million?

Personally, I don't think she should have played into Trump's hands like that.  It's obvious whatever Native ancestry she had, wasn't much.  The majority of white Americans have a small percentage of Native DNA swimming around in them.  I mean, my great great grandmother was half Native and that didn't stop me from turning into one Irish-looking motherfucker.

I know the Right were the ones who initially brought it up after Warren made some comments in passing about some roots.  I think she should have just shut up about it instead of doubling down on it and betting Trump a million dollars she had some Native ancestry.  I doubt he'll give to any charity.  And sure, Trump looks like a racist ass but he always looks like a racist ass, so this is no new revelation.*  Meanwhile, people are much more aware of this situation than they had been and are looking at Warren like the new Rachel Dolezal, right or wrong.  The Cherokee Nation publicly denounced her as being a part of their community and she had to clarify her original statements once again.  She's been on the defensive this whole time and I'm not sure she's doing herself any favors.

* UPDATE: Trump apparently denies making the bet despite evidence to the contrary, so yeah, he's not giving to any charity.
Title: Re: So let's talk about Elizabeth Warren's DNA test.
Post by: Panthergod on October 16, 2018, 04:26:38 PM
In the context of student protests calling for more faculty of color--which, IIRC included Law Student Barack Obama--, Harvard paraded Elizabeth Warren as the first Woman of Color in her Department.

She is a classic example of a $5 Indian. She stole opportunity for employment, prestige and economic advancement at the World's most prestigious Educational Institution from actual people of color which has put her in a position that netted her Millions of Dollars, not to mention a Senate Seat and worldwide fame.

She's a typical white liberal piece of human offal, really.
Title: Re: So let's talk about Elizabeth Warren's DNA test.
Post by: 80sBaby on October 16, 2018, 04:45:29 PM
In the context of student protests calling for more faculty of color--which, IIRC included Law Student Barack Obama--, Harvard paraded Elizabeth Warren as the first Woman of Color in her Department.

She is a classic example of a $5 Indian. She stole opportunity for employment, prestige and economic advancement at the World's most prestigious Educational Institution from actual people of color which has put her in a position that netted her Millions of Dollars, not to mention a Senate Seat and worldwide fame.

She's a typical white liberal piece of human offal, really.

How did she "steal" anything when she didn't bring up her ancestry until well after she was hired? She didn't get any scholarships based on her ethnicity or job opportunities, either.


As to the OP, no she shouldn't have done it. Trump is a troll and, unfortunately, a lot of people don't know how to deal with trolling. They end up feeding into it and that only helps Trump. And no way would Trump have paid up, even if the test showed her as 100% Native American.
Title: Re: So let's talk about Elizabeth Warren's DNA test.
Post by: ProjectCornDog on October 16, 2018, 04:49:23 PM
It hurts.

If she cares about the liberal torch, she should pass it to Bernie or someone who has a higher chance of winning. That's not to say other Democrats aren't more electable in the primary, I am saying within the wing of the party they represent.
Title: Re: So let's talk about Elizabeth Warren's DNA test.
Post by: Panthergod on October 16, 2018, 04:53:53 PM
In the context of student protests calling for more faculty of color--which, IIRC included Law Student Barack Obama--, Harvard paraded Elizabeth Warren as the first Woman of Color in her Department.

She is a classic example of a $5 Indian. She stole opportunity for employment, prestige and economic advancement at the World's most prestigious Educational Institution from actual people of color which has put her in a position that netted her Millions of Dollars, not to mention a Senate Seat and worldwide fame.

She's a typical white liberal piece of human offal, really.

How did she "steal" anything when she didn't bring up her ancestry until well after she was hired?

How do you know this?
Title: Re: So let's talk about Elizabeth Warren's DNA test.
Post by: 80sBaby on October 16, 2018, 05:22:34 PM
In the context of student protests calling for more faculty of color--which, IIRC included Law Student Barack Obama--, Harvard paraded Elizabeth Warren as the first Woman of Color in her Department.

She is a classic example of a $5 Indian. She stole opportunity for employment, prestige and economic advancement at the World's most prestigious Educational Institution from actual people of color which has put her in a position that netted her Millions of Dollars, not to mention a Senate Seat and worldwide fame.

She's a typical white liberal piece of human offal, really.

How did she "steal" anything when she didn't bring up her ancestry until well after she was hired?

How do you know this?

The school has said so, there's evidence to back them up and there's nothing to contradict it. Have you actually read up on this or are you just repeating things you've heard?
Title: Re: So let's talk about Elizabeth Warren's DNA test.
Post by: Panthergod on October 16, 2018, 05:25:08 PM
In the context of student protests calling for more faculty of color--which, IIRC included Law Student Barack Obama--, Harvard paraded Elizabeth Warren as the first Woman of Color in her Department.

She is a classic example of a $5 Indian. She stole opportunity for employment, prestige and economic advancement at the World's most prestigious Educational Institution from actual people of color which has put her in a position that netted her Millions of Dollars, not to mention a Senate Seat and worldwide fame.

She's a typical white liberal piece of human offal, really.

How did she "steal" anything when she didn't bring up her ancestry until well after she was hired?

How do you know this?

The school has said so, there's evidence to back them up and there's nothing to contradict it. Have you actually read up on this or are you just repeating things you've heard?
All you had to say was, "I don't know".
Title: Re: So let's talk about Elizabeth Warren's DNA test.
Post by: 80sBaby on October 16, 2018, 05:31:38 PM
All you had to do was answer my original question. And yet, here we are...
Title: Re: So let's talk about Elizabeth Warren's DNA test.
Post by: MTL76 on October 16, 2018, 06:09:15 PM
I doubt it will hurt her much. People are too entrenched in how they're going to vote for this to change anyone's mind.
Title: Re: So let's talk about Elizabeth Warren's DNA test.
Post by: Rufio on October 16, 2018, 08:57:11 PM
Will this hurt or hinder her in the long run?  Should she have done the DNA test or not?  Will Trump cough up the 1 million?

Personally, I don't think she should have played into Trump's hands like that.  It's obvious whatever Native ancestry she had, wasn't much.  The majority of white Americans have a small percentage of Native DNA swimming around in them.  I mean, my great great grandmother was half Native and that didn't stop me from turning into one Irish-looking motherfucker.

I know the Right were the ones who initially brought it up after Warren made some comments in passing about some roots.  I think she should have just shut up about it instead of doubling down on it and betting Trump a million dollars she had some Native ancestry.  I doubt he'll give to any charity.  And sure, Trump looks like a racist ass but he always looks like a racist ass, so this is no new revelation.*  Meanwhile, people are much more aware of this situation than they had been and are looking at Warren like the new Rachel Dolezal, right or wrong.  The Cherokee Nation publicly denounced her as being a part of their community and she had to clarify her original statements once again.  She's been on the defensive this whole time and I'm not sure she's doing herself any favors.

* UPDATE: Trump apparently denies making the bet despite evidence to the contrary, so yeah, he's not giving to any charity.

I’ve watched a clip of Trump’s comment and he said he’d donate a million dollars if her test proves she’s “an Indian” (meaning a Native American). He didn’t say he’d do it if she had a small trace of ancestry.

Given that this test confirms only that she has at least .09% Native American ancestry, he should pay her specified charity $900 (.09% of a million dollars).
Title: Re: So let's talk about Elizabeth Warren's DNA test.
Post by: AP on October 16, 2018, 09:02:24 PM
If that's true then technically, he wouldn't have to pay.  That's another reason why she shouldn't have gone through with it.  Unless she came back with 90% ancestry or something, he could always say, "Well, that's that's not enough to call yourself Native" and he'd be right.

Trump isn't smart but he knows how to play people.
Title: Re: So let's talk about Elizabeth Warren's DNA test.
Post by: Dlbiininja on October 16, 2018, 09:31:32 PM
Thing is trump didn't specify there needed to be a certain percentage of Native American in get blood stream.   She went off of what her family told her.   And we all know that families can keep dirty secrets & are often the first problem in most people's live's. 
     How was she to know how far down the bloodline it was?  It's not like the ability to tell was around back then.   Did she prove that she had Native American I get background absolutely.   Was it enough to be relevant.   Probably not.  She had no outstanding features of a Native American.   Which,  many Native Americans are & were often ostracized as a result of them.   I can't recall anything she's done for the tribes.  Did,  she benefit politically possibly.   But,  I don't think it's been a factor in where she eventually ended up.   Trump felt it was enough to attack her on it without dna evidence.  And he says he'll test her himself.   Which,  I doubt he's capable of doing by looking at her. 

Meanwhile,  here's someone who has benefited from a lying false claim. 
http://www.latimes.com/local/california/la-na-pol-mccarthy-contracts-20181014-story.html?outputType=amp&__twitter_impression=true
Title: Re: So let's talk about Elizabeth Warren's DNA test.
Post by: Snake-eyes on October 16, 2018, 11:04:38 PM
Only as Rufio pointed out, Trump did specify the bet was about her being "an Indian". In what world is being .1% NA enough to claim that you're an Indian?

IMO, This DNA test in no way proves that she's an Indian. hell, I'd be willing to bet a good number of US posters on this board have more NA blood and AFAIK not a one of us has ever claimed to be Indian.
Title: Re: So let's talk about Elizabeth Warren's DNA test.
Post by: therock on October 16, 2018, 11:18:19 PM
Will this hurt or hinder her in the long run?  Should she have done the DNA test or not?  Will Trump cough up the 1 million?

Personally, I don't think she should have played into Trump's hands like that.  It's obvious whatever Native ancestry she had, wasn't much.  The majority of white Americans have a small percentage of Native DNA swimming around in them.  I mean, my great great grandmother was half Native and that didn't stop me from turning into one Irish-looking motherfucker.

I know the Right were the ones who initially brought it up after Warren made some comments in passing about some roots.  I think she should have just shut up about it instead of doubling down on it and betting Trump a million dollars she had some Native ancestry.  I doubt he'll give to any charity.  And sure, Trump looks like a racist ass but he always looks like a racist ass, so this is no new revelation.*  Meanwhile, people are much more aware of this situation than they had been and are looking at Warren like the new Rachel Dolezal, right or wrong.  The Cherokee Nation publicly denounced her as being a part of their community and she had to clarify her original statements once again.  She's been on the defensive this whole time and I'm not sure she's doing herself any favors.

* UPDATE: Trump apparently denies making the bet despite evidence to the contrary, so yeah, he's not giving to any charity.

wait was it Warren who made the bet or trump

thought trump was the one who.introduce the bet

didn't he offer something similar for Obama birth certificate
Title: Re: So let's talk about Elizabeth Warren's DNA test.
Post by: therock on October 16, 2018, 11:23:12 PM
also did she ever say she was a straight up indian or that she had indian ancestors

think she even mention it was generations back
Title: Re: So let's talk about Elizabeth Warren's DNA test.
Post by: MTL76 on October 16, 2018, 11:24:55 PM
Didn't she also say that her dad's family never accepted her mother because she was an Indian? Did anyone run this down, or is she fucking her dad's family over?
Title: Re: So let's talk about Elizabeth Warren's DNA test.
Post by: Snake-eyes on October 16, 2018, 11:28:42 PM
IIRC, She said that her parent's had to elope because her father's parents(Her grandparents) refused to allow him to marry someone that was part Cherokee.
Title: Re: So let's talk about Elizabeth Warren's DNA test.
Post by: MTL76 on October 16, 2018, 11:30:49 PM
Yeah, that 1/256th Cherokee was a real deal breaker back in the day.
Title: Re: So let's talk about Elizabeth Warren's DNA test.
Post by: Snake-eyes on October 16, 2018, 11:54:09 PM
In order for her grandparents to object, they'd have to know about her mother's supposed ancestry. so my question is. how did they know about it?
Title: Re: So let's talk about Elizabeth Warren's DNA test.
Post by: NeoGreenLantern on October 17, 2018, 12:21:20 AM
It was probably passed down knowledge. I've always been told I'm part Japanese becausemy great grandfather on my mom's side was japenese. But technically I don't know this for sure since I've never met my grandfather let alone great grandfather.

There are stories like this on my dad's side too. Like how my ancestor altered his last name to sound less Irish and more Scottish to marry a Scottish woman.

It basically becomes an argument over which is more important, being genetically part of group or being culturally part of a group. This is actually plays into what the Cherokee Nation said about the situation. They really didn't denounce her. They basically said genetics isn't the main factor in being part of the Cherokee Nation. It's more about being part of the culture. They don't want people taking DNA test just to weasel there way into the nation and the benefits they get from it.

Warren has a quaint little family story about having native American ancestry similar to mine about being part Japanese. She might have told it a few too many times but I dont think shes been trying to manipulate anyone with it.
Title: Re: So let's talk about Elizabeth Warren's DNA test.
Post by: Snake-eyes on October 17, 2018, 12:36:19 AM
It being a family story on her mother's side doesn't explain how her father's parents supposedly learned of it in order to object to the idea of marriage.
Title: Re: So let's talk about Elizabeth Warren's DNA test.
Post by: NeoGreenLantern on October 17, 2018, 12:54:08 AM
At some point someone told them? It's not that deep of a plothole for a person to fill in.
Title: Re: So let's talk about Elizabeth Warren's DNA test.
Post by: Snake-eyes on October 17, 2018, 01:42:48 AM
That is the point I'm working towards, Elizabeth's family were obviously proud enough of their supposed heritage to make a big deal out of it. kind of like how Elizabeth Warren does now.

I doubt that level of pride was due to them thinking they were only 1/256th Indian.
Title: Re: So let's talk about Elizabeth Warren's DNA test.
Post by: AP on October 17, 2018, 06:55:04 AM
Yeah, it does seem that Warren's family insisted upon it a bit much if the dad's family got bent out of shape over it, especially since the dad's side was just as likely to have some Native roots.  I would never call Warren or her family Native, culturally or genetically.  As I said, I have Native ancestry but unless I tell people, no one would know or care.
Title: Re: So let's talk about Elizabeth Warren's DNA test.
Post by: MTL76 on October 17, 2018, 08:06:48 AM
Maybe the dad’s family objected to the marriage because they didn’t want their son marrying a crazy white woman who went around driving everyone crazy by insisting she was a Cherokee.
Title: Re: So let's talk about Elizabeth Warren's DNA test.
Post by: NeoGreenLantern on October 17, 2018, 10:03:25 AM
That is the point I'm working towards, Elizabeth's family were obviously proud enough of their supposed heritage to make a big deal out of it. kind of like how Elizabeth Warren does now.

I doubt that level of pride was due to them thinking they were only 1/256th Indian.

I'm sure she thought or hoped she had more NA in her DNA in her lineage. Hell for all she knows that's not why her dad's family objected. Just the story her parents told her.

But like I said her telling the stories she heard growing up doesnt mean she was trying to be deceptive even if they aren't true.
Title: Re: So let's talk about Elizabeth Warren's DNA test.
Post by: Rufio on October 17, 2018, 10:53:25 AM
It was probably passed down knowledge. I've always been told I'm part Japanese becausemy great grandfather on my mom's side was japenese. But technically I don't know this for sure since I've never met my grandfather let alone great grandfather.

There are stories like this on my dad's side too. Like how my ancestor altered his last name to sound less Irish and more Scottish to marry a Scottish woman.

It basically becomes an argument over which is more important, being genetically part of group or being culturally part of a group. This is actually plays into what the Cherokee Nation said about the situation. They really didn't denounce her. They basically said genetics isn't the main factor in being part of the Cherokee Nation. It's more about being part of the culture. They don't want people taking DNA test just to weasel there way into the nation and the benefits they get from it.

Warren has a quaint little family story about having native American ancestry similar to mine about being part Japanese. She might have told it a few too many times but I dont think shes been trying to manipulate anyone with it.

You’re not quite right about the Cherokee Nation. While they don’t have a strict blood quantum (some tribes require at least 25%), they do require you to show ancestry recognized from a list of registered Cherokees compiled around 1900. Per Wikipedia:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_quantum_laws

“Meanwhile, the Cherokee Nation requires applicants to descend from an ancestor in the 1906 Dawes roll (direct lineal ancestry), but does not impose minimum blood quantum requirement. The United Keetoowah Band requires a minimum 1/4 blood quantum.”

That’s not really about culture. It’s about descent, albeit descent from an incomplete and less than fully accurate list.

Basically, Elizabeth Warren is clearly not Cherokee in any normally understood sense. But that isn’t relevant at all.  She should’ve just said she believed her family tale but it turned out to be wrong. She has some serious ideas on banking and consumer regulation. She should’ve stuck to her ideas instead of making a fool out of herself on this irrelevant identity issue.
Title: Re: So let's talk about Elizabeth Warren's DNA test.
Post by: therock on October 17, 2018, 12:25:54 PM
Well to be fair she wasn't the one pushing it that much. She wasn't the one making a bet. It only comes up when she attack by it. It not like she stating the idea she cherokee in commericals.  She mostly talk about policy. She just said she had some anchestory. Nor Do I think she ever said she a full cherokee or tried to get her own casino..or any of the benifits. The idea that if she simply stop talking about..that Trump or the republicans would let it go...I dont think would of happen

Title: Re: So let's talk about Elizabeth Warren's DNA test.
Post by: AP on October 17, 2018, 12:56:09 PM
Well to be fair she wasn't the one pushing it that much. She wasn't the one making a bet. It only comes up when she attack by it. It not like she stating the idea she cherokee in commericals.  She mostly talk about policy. She just said she had some anchestory. Nor Do I think she ever said she a full cherokee or tried to get her own casino..or any of the benifits. The idea that if she simply stop talking about..that Trump or the republicans would let it go...I dont think would of happen

No one here thinks she started it.  The issue is that she gave in to Trump's shenanigans and now people think she made claims that she never made.  The DNA test was a mistake because it plays into their hands.
Title: Re: So let's talk about Elizabeth Warren's DNA test.
Post by: NeoGreenLantern on October 17, 2018, 01:06:15 PM
That I can agree with. Trump was never going to be fair about it. She should have never played his game. Seems like she got blinded by defending a family story that was important to her.
Title: Re: So let's talk about Elizabeth Warren's DNA test.
Post by: XerxesTWD on October 17, 2018, 01:20:00 PM
The number of people in this thread who don't know DNA inheritance is random is blowing my mind.

You don't get a 25% disbursement of Grandma and Grandpa's actual DNA. You don't even get 50% from each parent. You could get more or less from either one. She could have a full blooded Cherokee grandparent on one side and still wind up looking like an old white woman if she inherited more from the other side of her family.

As to the thread, her publicized results were a stupid idea. Trump changes the goal posts within the same conversation, let alone months later.
Title: Re: So let's talk about Elizabeth Warren's DNA test.
Post by: therock on October 17, 2018, 01:30:57 PM
Well to be fair she wasn't the one pushing it that much. She wasn't the one making a bet. It only comes up when she attack by it. It not like she stating the idea she cherokee in commericals.  She mostly talk about policy. She just said she had some anchestory. Nor Do I think she ever said she a full cherokee or tried to get her own casino..or any of the benifits. The idea that if she simply stop talking about..that Trump or the republicans would let it go...I dont think would of happen

No one here thinks she started it.  The issue is that she gave in to Trump's shenanigans and now people think she made claims that she never made.  The DNA test was a mistake because it plays into their hands.

yea but they were accusing of making claims she didn't make anyway before the dna

people act like she tried to get a casino

it hard to figure how to fight a troll when the troll is president of the United states

it one thing if a poster fucks with you it another when the most powerful. an in the  world does. who you HAVE to deal with and have media on every word. who you cant ignore completely

it extremely odd to have an internet troll a president in a job I am dispose to respect
Title: Re: So let's talk about Elizabeth Warren's DNA test.
Post by: AP on October 17, 2018, 01:52:07 PM
yea but they were accusing of making claims she didn't make anyway before the dna

She claimed to have had Native roots.  The conservatives just twisted her words.  If she shut up about it, people would continue ignoring them.  Taking a DNA test resulted in the Streisand Effect.
Title: Re: So let's talk about Elizabeth Warren's DNA test.
Post by: therock on October 17, 2018, 02:05:24 PM
yea but they were accusing of making claims she didn't make anyway before the dna

She claimed to have had Native roots.  The conservatives just twisted her words.  If she shut up about it, people would continue ignoring them.  Taking a DNA test resulted in the Streisand Effect.

Obama ignore the birther thing for most his time in office that never stop

and she does have native roots. the stiesend effect is where your trying ro hide or remove info. that not the same here

they were making claim she somehow got into college in this. that goes beyond word twisting that just making shit up
Title: Re: So let's talk about Elizabeth Warren's DNA test.
Post by: AP on October 17, 2018, 02:22:08 PM
Obama ignore the birther thing for most his time in office that never stop

I never said it would stop.

Quote
and she does have native roots

No more or less than most white people in the US.  That's why no one gives a shit.
Title: Re: So let's talk about Elizabeth Warren's DNA test.
Post by: 80sBaby on October 17, 2018, 02:22:13 PM
Obama ignore the birther thing for most his time in office that never stop

And by not dignifying it, he also didn't make himself look foolish, as she does now. He played it smart and ignored the stupidity. The most he did was make fun of the absurdity of it all but he never legitimized it. That's the point.
Title: Re: So let's talk about Elizabeth Warren's DNA test.
Post by: Snake-eyes on October 17, 2018, 03:22:19 PM
Well to be fair she wasn't the one pushing it that much. She wasn't the one making a bet. It only comes up when she attack by it. It not like she stating the idea she cherokee in commericals.  She mostly talk about policy. She just said she had some anchestory. Nor Do I think she ever said she a full cherokee or tried to get her own casino..or any of the benifits. The idea that if she simply stop talking about..that Trump or the republicans would let it go...I dont think would of happen

No one here thinks she started it.  The issue is that she gave in to Trump's shenanigans and now people think she made claims that she never made.  The DNA test was a mistake because it plays into their hands.

While Trump and the right have certainly escalated the issue, Warren has actually made the claim. according to snopes she admitted to identifying herself as a minority in an acedemic directory for around a decade. she also called herself Cherokee in a cookbook.

https://www.snopes.com/ap/2018/10/16/elizabeth-warrens-dna-claim-inflames-native-americans/

https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2017/dec/01/facts-behind-elizabeth-warren-and-her-native-ameri/

Title: Re: So let's talk about Elizabeth Warren's DNA test.
Post by: Panthergod on October 17, 2018, 04:23:55 PM
Obama ignore the birther thing for most his time in office that never stop

I never said it would stop.

Quote
and she does have native roots

No more or less than most white people in the US.  That's why no one gives a shit.

Actually.. explicitly LESS native ancestry than the average white American.
Title: Re: So let's talk about Elizabeth Warren's DNA test.
Post by: NeoGreenLantern on October 17, 2018, 05:19:53 PM
Can you provide proof of the assertion?
Title: Re: So let's talk about Elizabeth Warren's DNA test.
Post by: Dlbiininja on October 18, 2018, 11:16:06 PM
It was probably passed down knowledge. I've always been told I'm part Japanese becausemy great grandfather on my mom's side was japenese. But technically I don't know this for sure since I've never met my grandfather let alone great grandfather.

There are stories like this on my dad's side too. Like how my ancestor altered his last name to sound less Irish and more Scottish to marry a Scottish woman.

It basically becomes an argument over which is more important, being genetically part of group or being culturally part of a group. This is actually plays into what the Cherokee Nation said about the situation. They really didn't denounce her. They basically said genetics isn't the main factor in being part of the Cherokee Nation. It's more about being part of the culture. They don't want people taking DNA test just to weasel there way into the nation and the benefits they get from it.

Warren has a quaint little family story about having native American ancestry similar to mine about being part Japanese. She might have told it a few too many times but I dont think shes been trying to manipulate anyone with it.

Well, it definitely happens with the name changes.  Especially, in early American history.  Latinos/Hispanic/Cubano have often changed their names.  Trump's grandfather changed their named from Drumpf to Trump. 
    Hell, I just found out that Rafael was Ted Cruz's first name. 

  And yea.  From what I've seen and heard she definitely wasn't trying to take part of any Cherokee culture.
Title: Re: So let's talk about Elizabeth Warren's DNA test.
Post by: XerxesTWD on October 30, 2018, 06:23:28 PM
Obama ignore the birther thing for most his time in office that never stop

I never said it would stop.

Quote
and she does have native roots

No more or less than most white people in the US.  That's why no one gives a shit.

Actually.. explicitly LESS native ancestry than the average white American.
Your assertion is actually explicitly false. She has explicitly LESS Native DNA than the average white American at her lowest possible percentage. Ancestry and DNA inheritance rates are explicitly not the same thing. Explicitly.