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Comic Forums => General Comic Discussion => Topic started by: Jabroniville on May 13, 2018, 08:16:06 AM

Title: Most Disastrous Comic Book Runs
Post by: Jabroniville on May 13, 2018, 08:16:06 AM
I'm curious as to your thoughts about the most disastrous runs on certain books. Basically, the ones that are not only bad, but actively jeopardize or damage the franchises held within?

My choices (at least what's on my mind now):

The Clone Saga writers & editors: Well duh. I think there's maybe 2 or 3 characters in all of comics that could have survived this. Peter smacking his pregnant wife in the face (with fewer excuses than the mentally-ill Pym did) is only like the seventh-dumbest thing to happen in it.

Legion of Super-Heroes (Giffen & Bierbaums): Giffen, left to his lonesome, created the "Five Years Later" era, drew rubberfaced hideous art, brought in his goofy sense of humor to the forefront, and ended up doing so much damage to the franchise that it was fucking CANCELLED AND REBOOTED only a couple of years after he left. He even admitted he blew up the Earth just because he knew the editors were switching and wouldn't have time to pay attention. It's possible that no single creator has damaged something so much- the "Reboot" era came off of this, and we wouldn't see the "proper", original Legionnaires again until the mid-2000s, when Geoff Johns... ignored everything from Giffen's solo run.

The Teen Titans (Dan Jurgens): Terrible '90s characters, and a Teen Atom thing that was stupid. Pretty much killed the concept of the Titans dead until Devin Grayson rebooted it with the '80s cast.

The Teen Titans (Jay Faerber): Okay, so he blames his editor, who forced the "New Kids" on him. But the "Jesse Quick sleeps with her mom's fiancee" and "DEO Kids" story arcs were completely awful, and pretty much put the bullet in this generation of Teen Titans forever. Every arc after this is more inspired by the "Young Justice" kids being added in.
Title: Re: Most Disastrous Comic Book Runs
Post by: AP on May 13, 2018, 08:22:57 AM
Chuck Austen's runs on X-Men and Avengers were pretty bad.

Also, did the Ultimate universe ever really recover from Loeb?
Title: Re: Most Disastrous Comic Book Runs
Post by: Riv1 on May 13, 2018, 08:51:04 AM
One More Day.
(The Amazing Spider-Man #544, Friendly Neighborhood Spider-Man #24, The Sensational Spider-Man (vol. 2) #41, Amazing Spider-Man #545).

I know there were a lot of fingers in that pie, but i firmly believe the big fat middle finger belonged to Quesada.
Title: Re: Most Disastrous Comic Book Runs
Post by: Panthergod on May 13, 2018, 01:47:19 PM
Giffend 5YL is among the great legion runs ever.. Up to the Greater Darkness. It jumped the shark when the Berbums took over with that sw6 shit.. Which Bendis later coped with the original 5 X-Men being time displaced.
Title: Re: Most Disastrous Comic Book Runs
Post by: Propeus The Fallen on May 13, 2018, 08:40:14 PM
Jay wrote The TITANS. And I'll cut him some slack that the first half issues were good and that's proof enough that that idiot editor ruined things.

And I know Joe Q sucked for what he did to Spider-Man...but JMS and the Stacy Twins...how the hell was that every going to turn out to be a good idea??!


Chuck Austen's X-Men run. I have never seen so many dumb stupid plots and the worst messages told in the most idiotic way possible. You had Polaris suddenly becoming a super bitch/super insane. Oh and Nurse Anne. I think my personal favorite is Nurse Anne calling Ice Man being a racist towards other mutants. Oh, and the comment she made to Husk about Chamber having no mouth to...do things with. And to make it worse, you had Marvel using the stupid black leather uniforms that looked dumb in the comics and some horrible art and inking.


Bendis Avengers: I don't care if the damn thing sold. So did the Tranformers movie. Bendis has a lot of weaknesses...and one of the biggest is that he's horrible at team books. He constantly has members on the team he does not have any idea what to do with (Dr. Strange, Sentry). The usual problems he has with dialogue (every character pretty much being the same) and my personal favorite, how he ruined The Scarlet Witch. Kurt Busiek spent years building her up to be a great character and potential leader of the Avengers--then in a few issues, Bendis has it she's been nuts.


Bendis X-Men run. Yep. Let' see we got legendary "Iceman is gay" that--is possibly one of the meanest, stupidest things ever. Oh, pretty much all the problems of the Avengers but he amped up another trait of his: making characters jerks. Beast got hit hard with this as he became totally unlikable. And the funny thing is, because, stupid, the one character he wrote nicer was...Magik. The insane evil girl! WTF?! Hell, he even angered up Dazzler. And you also had the usual Kitty Pryde fanboyism until she went to Guardians of the galaxy...also written by Bendis. And you also had the usual storylines and characters Bendis had no idea what to do with or end.

You also had loser new mutants that no one cares about and I think have just vanished.


Ed Brubaker (Deadly Sins and other X-men stuff). I believe the start of the X-men going down was right here with him. It's like he wanted to tell a Chris Claremont story, but he couldn't do it. It was just all so uneven. The worst thing he did was to Prof X when he it turns out he sent some random kids to die and didn't tell anyone. Oh, and remember the classic "who is the 3rd Summers brother" and everyone was guessing for years--turns out it was some new character named Vulcan.

Vulcan. I swear, if it was for Kid Superman Prime coming out at the same time and his "I'll kill you to death" this character would be remembered as one of the worst and stupidest ever.

Brad Meltzer Identity Crisis. ...This was supposed to be a homage to the Silver Age. Hint: it was everything the Silver Age wasn't.
Title: Re: Most Disastrous Comic Book Runs
Post by: Panthergod on May 13, 2018, 08:43:25 PM
Identity Crisis was a blatant post Watchmen deconstruction, obviously.
Title: Re: Most Disastrous Comic Book Runs
Post by: Abhilegend on May 14, 2018, 01:04:59 PM
Dan Jurgens on Thor

Roy Thomas/Mark Gruenwald/Ralph Macchio Thor run. Totally retconned the Lee/Kirby gods to some generic gods created by humans 2000 years ago. The franchise still suffers from the unnecessary retcon and Thor continuity is a total mess.

Pak Hulk. Seriously undermined the character of the Hulk for random power level bullshit.

Paul Jenkins Hulk. Retconned Merged hulk and created the worst deus ex machina for random Hulk personalities to emerge.

Lobdell Superman. Just garbage through and through.
Title: Re: Most Disastrous Comic Book Runs
Post by: Riv1 on May 14, 2018, 02:19:29 PM
Somebody help me out here.

The worst run on Hulk i recall was where it never even featured the Hulk? It was just Banner running from some conspiracy shit, boring as Fuuuuck.
I wanna say it was Bruce Jones, but cant confirm.
Title: Re: Most Disastrous Comic Book Runs
Post by: Abhilegend on May 14, 2018, 02:24:33 PM
It was Bruce Jones
Title: Re: Most Disastrous Comic Book Runs
Post by: Riv1 on May 14, 2018, 02:43:44 PM
^^^Thanks.

Thanks, now i know who’s grave to spit on.
Title: Re: Most Disastrous Comic Book Runs
Post by: Abhilegend on May 14, 2018, 02:50:43 PM
Keith Giffen Legion is one of the greatest comics runs ever. It was only derailed after SW6 nonsense and Mark Waid nonsensical Valor run.

LOSH v3 50, Magic Wars, Mon-El destroying Time Trapper, Princes Projectra killing Nemesis Boy etc are some of the most memorable scenes in comics ever.
Title: Re: Most Disastrous Comic Book Runs
Post by: Riv1 on May 14, 2018, 02:59:17 PM
^^^thats on point.
Title: Re: Most Disastrous Comic Book Runs
Post by: Upper_Krust on May 14, 2018, 08:54:31 PM
Dan Jurgens on Thor

Awesome run.

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Roy Thomas/Mark Gruenwald/Ralph Macchio Thor run. Totally retconned the Lee/Kirby gods to some generic gods created by humans 2000 years ago. The franchise still suffers from the unnecessary retcon and Thor continuity is a total mess.

Interesting rather than great, but hardly disastrous.

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Pak Hulk. Seriously undermined the character of the Hulk for random power level bullshit.

Pak's run was great and only the very end went into a totally bonkers strokefest.

If you want a disastrous run on anything it's Aaron's Thor run that has undermined everything the character ever stood for.
Title: Re: Most Disastrous Comic Book Runs
Post by: Kallor on May 15, 2018, 12:55:00 AM
Jurgen's run had the most annoying, wordy take on "Thor speak" imaginable for the first like 40+ issues, and used the exact same battle formula for nearly all significant encounters until the Reigning started.  The Reigning was then decompressed as hell, giving us a near-villainous Thor for years, and then had a rush job nonsense ending because he ran out of time.

I know you liked it because it had action that modern comics lack, but books used to have more action in general than modern comics.  It's "good" by comparison, not on its own merits.

Jurgen's was basically Defalco with better ideas, but worse execution.
Title: Re: Most Disastrous Comic Book Runs
Post by: Riv1 on May 15, 2018, 01:28:46 AM
Yeah, some of the choices so far i’m not commenting on, as they arent necessarily bad, just not what someone wanted done.   
Title: Re: Most Disastrous Comic Book Runs
Post by: Not BAMF on May 15, 2018, 08:06:05 AM
Yeah, people are REALLY altering the word "Disastrous" to mean "Mildly annoying for a while".

But hell, I can do that, too.

Dan Slott on Spider-Man.
Title: Re: Most Disastrous Comic Book Runs
Post by: Riv1 on May 15, 2018, 08:09:34 AM
^^^thanks for agreeing.

In my case, Grant Morrison X-Men (bare chest leather Wolverine, Cat Beast) was a disaster, as i (personally) found it pretty awful.
Title: Re: Most Disastrous Comic Book Runs
Post by: Propeus The Fallen on May 15, 2018, 09:04:38 AM
The only thing about Grant Morrison's run was the school actually had students. ...Too bad we only got to focus on the more annoying ones (Angel coming to mind the most). And I know it's minor, but I really liked Beast girlfriend Trish Tilby and the way she was treated and forgotten.



Title: Re: Most Disastrous Comic Book Runs
Post by: Panthergod on May 15, 2018, 10:31:48 AM
Morrison X Men saved the franchise.
Title: Re: Most Disastrous Comic Book Runs
Post by: Clownprince23 on May 15, 2018, 11:19:42 AM
Chuck Austen's run on Action Comics was really bad. They ended up firing him and getting someone to come in under a pen name to finish the last two issues because they couldn't find anyone else.
Title: Re: Most Disastrous Comic Book Runs
Post by: Panthergod on May 15, 2018, 03:04:53 PM
Chuck Austen's run on Action Comics was really bad. They ended up firing him and getting someone to come in under a pen name to finish the last two issues because they couldn't find anyone else.

It was the editor Eddie berganza iirc
Title: Re: Most Disastrous Comic Book Runs
Post by: Riv1 on May 15, 2018, 03:35:03 PM
Chuck Austen's run on Action Comics was really bad. They ended up firing him and getting someone to come in under a pen name to finish the last two issues because they couldn't find anyone else.
Thats fucking awesome.
Title: Re: Most Disastrous Comic Book Runs
Post by: Clownprince23 on May 15, 2018, 04:51:46 PM
Chuck Austen's run on Action Comics was really bad. They ended up firing him and getting someone to come in under a pen name to finish the last two issues because they couldn't find anyone else.

It was the editor Eddie berganza iirc


I read that it was an editor, but the source I read wasn't sure. And no one wanted to associate their name to it.

Title: Re: Most Disastrous Comic Book Runs
Post by: Clownprince23 on May 15, 2018, 04:53:32 PM
Yeah, people are REALLY altering the word "Disastrous" to mean "Mildly annoying for a while".

But hell, I can do that, too.

Dan Slott on Spider-Man.


I liked his Superior Spidey, but when Peter came back and became a newer version of old Tony Stark I lost interest. A friend told me that it got better, so I'm gonna try and give it a shot.

Title: Re: Most Disastrous Comic Book Runs
Post by: Propeus The Fallen on May 16, 2018, 01:25:21 AM
Here's one. Dan Didio's classic....Countdown. I could go all day about what was wrong with that one, but I think  the main thing is...it was pointless. All of it. Grant Morrison ignored it for his Crisis story...which also deserves a mention. :)

And I've heard things about Inhumans vs X-Men.

Chris Claremon's second run was pretty horrible. He introduced the next evolution of mutants and they were horrible, his overwordiness of his comic where he described everything to the point I wondered why there was an artist, the lame C level at best villains he kept using for some insane reason, ignoring everything that people wrote after him making everything confusing, breaking up Angel and Psylocke...for her to get with Thunderbird. Just some guy who joined the team off panel. Heck, the only reason he was named Thunderbird was because Clarement admitted he just liked the name.

But to be fair, after Austen, he did get another run and it was much better and improved on everything from the second run, but---yeesh, that second run of his was horrible.
Title: Re: Most Disastrous Comic Book Runs
Post by: Thanos6 on May 17, 2018, 12:04:21 AM
I didn't like the start of Jurgens's Thor, but I quite enjoyed The Reigning, myself.
Title: Re: Most Disastrous Comic Book Runs
Post by: Kallor on May 17, 2018, 12:25:51 AM
I didn't like the start of Jurgens's Thor, but I quite enjoyed The Reigning, myself.

It was leagues better than the run prior to Odin's death, I liked The Reigning for a while too, but (imo obviously) it went on too long and more importantly botched the ending due to Jurgen's being rushed off the book.  If he'd paced himself better that wouldn't have been as glaring an issue.
Title: Re: Most Disastrous Comic Book Runs
Post by: Mightily Oats on May 18, 2018, 01:53:00 AM
Joe Kelly's X-Men was awful, too

Seems like most people write shitty X-Men
Title: Re: Most Disastrous Comic Book Runs
Post by: Jabroniville on May 18, 2018, 07:19:01 AM
Keith Giffen Legion is one of the greatest comics runs ever. It was only derailed after SW6 nonsense and Mark Waid nonsensical Valor run.

LOSH v3 50, Magic Wars, Mon-El destroying Time Trapper, Princes Projectra killing Nemesis Boy etc are some of the most memorable scenes in comics ever.
Giffen and LEVITZ was good. Giffen by himself managed to leave the book with only a couple years left in its lifespan. Continuity DIED a couple years after he left! That's virtually the DEFINITION of failure.

It's not for nothing that the resurrected, Legion of Three Worlds/"Unboot" Legion completely ignores everything from Five Years Later.

And yes, people are just using "runs I didn't like" and "Worst runs" as "Disastrous". That's improper. The runs I refer to in the original post are ones that actually damaged the characters and franchise. Each left the book in a decidedly worse state than they began.
Title: Re: Most Disastrous Comic Book Runs
Post by: Riv1 on May 18, 2018, 08:37:57 AM
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It's not for nothing that the resurrected, Legion of Three Worlds/"Unboot" Legion completely ignores everything from Five Years Later.
Huh.
Never noticed that!
Title: Re: Most Disastrous Comic Book Runs
Post by: Riv1 on May 18, 2018, 08:44:39 AM
Oh i have one.
Whoever was responsible for the Rawhide Kid MAX series seriously set homosexuality in comics back to like, Seduction of The Innocent days.   
Title: Re: Most Disastrous Comic Book Runs
Post by: Upper_Krust on May 18, 2018, 12:10:56 PM
Jurgen's run had the most annoying, wordy take on "Thor speak" imaginable for the first like 40+ issues,


The same 'Thor speak' that makes the character unique.
The same 'Thor speak' that (to an extent) they use for MCU Thor (albeit they've added humour to counterbalance his pomposity).
The same 'Thor speak' Aaron's Fem-Thor knock-off occasionally uses even though that's totally nonsensical.

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and used the exact same battle formula for nearly all significant encounters until the Reigning started.

Is it a 'battle formula' where Thor is given a tough challenge and initially gets his crap kicked in only to come back AGAINST THE ODDS and win. ie. a good battle formula*.

*Maybe he should have just had Thor overpower Mangog and toss him into the sun.  ::)

Quote
The Reigning was then decompressed as hell, giving us a near-villainous Thor for years,

Agreed it was decompressed* and should have been the 12 issue mini-series it was initially conceived to be.

*Like current Marvel comics.

Quote
and then had a rush job nonsense ending because he ran out of time.

Marvel spring on him a month or two before they cancel his run that he needs to end it - hardly his fault.

Quote
I know you liked it because it had action that modern comics lack,


It had truly great action scenes, cool moments*, actual heroism pitting Thor 'against the odds', interesting new villains and decent pacing.

*so good in fact Aaron copied one scene from Jurgen's Mangog fight in his current debacle of a run
...and inarguably Gorr is somewhat like Desak.
...and Jurgen's also had Thor Girl.
...and Jurgen's had older Thor with one arm.
...and Jurgen's had Thor unworthy to lift Mjolnir.

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but books used to have more action in general than modern comics.


- They certainly had BETTER action and better consistency.
- I'd argue a faster turnover of stories leads to more conflict (and thus more frequent action) than decompressed stories. Decompressed stories (such as the typical 1 story in 6 issue formula we see today) devalue the worth of individual issues. They might well read fine in Trade format but they are generally weak as individual issues.

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It's "good" by comparison, not on its own merits.

Jurgen's run, certainly the 50+ issues preceding the Reigning were fantastic and conceived to be a new readers introduction to Thor who had been off the shelves for several years.

Quote
Jurgen's was basically Defalco with better ideas, but worse execution.

In my opinion its one of the best runs and probably THE best jumping on point for new readers.
Title: Re: Most Disastrous Comic Book Runs
Post by: Upper_Krust on May 18, 2018, 12:16:54 PM
I didn't like the start of Jurgens's Thor,

I'm genuinely curious as to why? Not saying you are necessarily right or wrong - not everyone likes every book after all.

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but I quite enjoyed The Reigning, myself.

The idea of the Reigning was fantastically refreshing (its very rare for the Thor title to touch on real world religious issues) BUT I agree with Kallor in that it went on too long.
Title: Re: Most Disastrous Comic Book Runs
Post by: Not BAMF on May 18, 2018, 03:28:47 PM
Upper Krust is seriously the fucking worst, guys. Can we fire him or something?
Title: Re: Most Disastrous Comic Book Runs
Post by: Thanos6 on May 18, 2018, 06:34:48 PM
I didn't like the start of Jurgens's Thor,

I'm genuinely curious as to why? Not saying you are necessarily right or wrong - not everyone likes every book after all.

I didn't like his treatment of my namesake. He continued the trend begun in Ka-Zar of undoing Thanos's post-IG character development and taking him back to his days of conquest and stellar genocide.

The whole Jake Olson thing. I personally feel Thor had long since moved past the "turn into a mortal" idea. (Doesn't mean he can't have a mortal identity, like Sigurd Jarlson that Simonson came up with, but without actually being mortal.)

Quote
Quote
but I quite enjoyed The Reigning, myself.

The idea of the Reigning was fantastically refreshing (its very rare for the Thor title to touch on real world religious issues) BUT I agree with Kallor in that it went on too long.

Actually, I would have been fine with it going even longer. But then, I am the guy who loved Busiek's Kang Dynasty. :)
Title: Re: Most Disastrous Comic Book Runs
Post by: Riv1 on May 19, 2018, 01:58:03 AM
^^^Kang Dynasty.
If thats what i’m thinking of, i didnt like it.
Title: Re: Most Disastrous Comic Book Runs
Post by: Thanos6 on May 19, 2018, 03:46:22 AM
^^^Kang Dynasty.
If thats what i’m thinking of, i didnt like it.

The year-and-a-half-long story in Avengers where Kang took over the world.
Title: Re: Most Disastrous Comic Book Runs
Post by: Riv1 on May 19, 2018, 05:52:45 AM
Yeah thats the one.
Not sure how disasterous it was, but it bored the piss out of me.
Title: Re: Most Disastrous Comic Book Runs
Post by: Thanos6 on May 19, 2018, 06:19:56 AM
Yeah thats the one.
Not sure how disasterous it was, but it bored the piss out of me.

Not disastrous at all! It's my favorite Avengers story ever.
Title: Re: Most Disastrous Comic Book Runs
Post by: Riv1 on May 19, 2018, 07:46:53 AM
To each his own, and no offense meant.
Title: Re: Most Disastrous Comic Book Runs
Post by: Upper_Krust on May 19, 2018, 02:49:25 PM
Upper Krust is seriously the fucking worst, guys. Can we fire him or something?

What on Earth are you blathering about son? Are you so thin-skinned that any opinion other than those you agree with must be silenced? If so, grow up.
Title: Re: Most Disastrous Comic Book Runs
Post by: Upper_Krust on May 19, 2018, 03:02:24 PM
I didn't like his treatment of my namesake. He continued the trend begun in Ka-Zar of undoing Thanos's post-IG character development and taking him back to his days of conquest and stellar genocide.

That's fair enough I suppose.

Quote
The whole Jake Olson thing. I personally feel Thor had long since moved past the "turn into a mortal" idea. (Doesn't mean he can't have a mortal identity, like Sigurd Jarlson that Simonson came up with, but without actually being mortal.)

Well firstly, Jurgen's run was meant to be a jump on point for new readers - hence it brought back many classic villains and the whole mortal identity (and 60 second rule) thing was replayed.

Secondly, having a mortal identity is a good way to ground Thor and make him relatable and importantly give him a reason for being on Earth. Plus it can create interesting side stories.

I do agree that Simonson's removal of that side of things was to show Thor had moved past his youthful arrogance and grown up, as well as stepping out from the shadow of his father (symbolised by his growing of a beard). But the Simonson era was more a progression of the story for long term readers while Jurgen's was a quasi-retelling for new readers.

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Actually, I would have been fine with it going even longer. But then, I am the guy who loved Busiek's Kang Dynasty. :)

I loved it too. Busiek on Avengers (which I admittedly read years later in trade format) was a seriously good run.
Title: Re: Most Disastrous Comic Book Runs
Post by: Not BAMF on May 20, 2018, 05:25:36 PM
Upper Krust is seriously the fucking worst, guys. Can we fire him or something?

What on Earth are you blathering about son? Are you so thin-skinned that any opinion other than those you agree with must be silenced? If so, grow up.

Says the guy whose masculinity is so devastated that they made a Thor that he has to cry about it and whine about SJWs like they are out to get him.

Go back to slurping off Comics & Diversity and threatening shops for not carrying shit ass Jawbreaker or whatever it’s called.
Title: Re: Most Disastrous Comic Book Runs
Post by: Upper_Krust on May 20, 2018, 06:49:21 PM
Says the guy whose masculinity is so devastated that they made a Thor that he has to cry about it and whine about SJWs like they are out to get him.

I'm not devastated, I'm simply not buying it because its openly pushing an agenda of, for want of a better term 'anti-masculinity'. Even then, I'm not against comics that have this anti-masculinity agenda, I'm just annoyed that someone thought it was a good idea to push this agenda in a Thor book (though you could argue Marvel push this agenda in almost every book of late).

Aaron could have told the exact same story without putting down (the real) Thor (and by extension Thor fans) and without pushing his ideology upon the book* and I would have supported his run as I have all the others (barring Fraction's last year whereupon I was burned on his poor writing) for close to 30 years.

*A book he did not create lets be clear.

Aaron, to his credit, is probably the best 'mystery-merchant' in the comics industry I have ever seen. His ability to construct an intriguing 'bait' to lure in readers is flat out brilliant. That said, when it comes time for his stories to 'pony up' and deliver he falls flat on his face every time, only to ignore that and move on to casting out the next bit of bait.

Aaron's run, for all its supporters (such as yourself presumably) and detractors (like myself) ultimately boils down to an 'Anti-Thor' book. It does almost everything in its power to criticize, emasculate and humiliate the character (and any male supporting characters). Its a book by someone who HATES the character and all he stands for.

They took a self-proclaimed Atheist, Feminist and Identity Politics Peddler and gave him a book about a white male god - its no wonder at all we ended up where we are.

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Go back to slurping off Comics & Diversity and threatening shops for not carrying shit ass Jawbreaker or whatever it’s called.

Seems you're following the SJW playbook step-by-step:

1. Spread a bunch of lies about people with different political opinions to your own.
2. Demonize them enough to justify any sort of attack, even violence.
3. Try to de-platform them and make sure to let everyone else know they'll be tarnished with the same brush if they don't immediately condemn them.
Title: Re: Most Disastrous Comic Book Runs
Post by: Riv1 on May 21, 2018, 12:14:50 AM
^^^thats a pretty great synopsis on how a smear campaign works.
Title: Re: Most Disastrous Comic Book Runs
Post by: Propeus The Fallen on May 21, 2018, 04:33:32 AM
Yeah thats the one.
Not sure how disasterous it was, but it bored the piss out of me.

Not disastrous at all! It's my favorite Avengers story ever.

Yeah. I liked it too. Kurt Busiek wrote the best Ultron and Kang stories ever.

And if we're talking about boring Avengers story. Probably going to get grief for this...Hickman's Avengers run was boring. "Everything dies" Yeah yeah. I never seen anything that had so many character, expanded so far into the universe, such repercussions...and it put me to sleep.

I think New Avengers (might be wrong, it was all a drag so it blends in) with the Illuminati being the worse. I mean, you had Beast---and you couldn't let him be funny at least once? Heroes being jerks and destroying other worlds because--well, that makes me support them.