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Entertainment => Sports Talk => Topic started by: Quan_the_Antagonist on May 07, 2018, 08:32:49 PM

Title: Michael Jordan vs. LeBron James
Post by: Quan_the_Antagonist on May 07, 2018, 08:32:49 PM
I’m curious to see where people are these days.  The tide is turning.  Who is the G.O.A.T.?
Title: Re: Michael Jordan vs. LeBron James
Post by: altoon on May 08, 2018, 01:03:56 PM
The one undefeated in the finals and never faced a game 7.
Title: Re: Michael Jordan vs. LeBron James
Post by: DarthAlani on May 08, 2018, 01:29:37 PM
Jordan takes it.   Jordan would average over 40 in today's rule favoring perimeter play.

I would put Lebron at 2 all time bumping Kareem and the gap between them is getting bigger.
Title: Re: Michael Jordan vs. LeBron James
Post by: Quan_the_Antagonist on May 08, 2018, 10:27:17 PM
Jordan takes it.   Jordan would average over 40 in today's rule favoring perimeter play.

I would put Lebron at 2 all time bumping Kareem and the gap between them is getting bigger.
Ok ?  That doesn’t probes he’s better than LeBron.  He’s a scorer but LeBron isn’t far behind and he’s a bettering passer and rebounder.  His stats are on another level and I’m also a Jordan guy but this idea Jordan is the end all be all without a debate is ridiculous. 
Title: Re: Michael Jordan vs. LeBron James
Post by: Quan_the_Antagonist on May 08, 2018, 10:28:24 PM
The one undefeated in the finals and never faced a game 7.
So you’d argue Terry Bradshaw is a better web than Aaron Rodgers because he has more super bowl wins.  Pretty ridiculous.  Jordan also never faced any team comparable to the Warriors. 
Title: Re: Michael Jordan vs. LeBron James
Post by: altoon on May 09, 2018, 07:23:22 AM
Not sure what a web has to do with this but yeah
Title: Re: Michael Jordan vs. LeBron James
Post by: Quan_the_Antagonist on May 09, 2018, 09:27:52 AM
Not sure what a web has to do with this but yeah
Team accomplishments alone don’t determine superiority.  The compete body of work, opponents, competition, etc. 
Title: Re: Michael Jordan vs. LeBron James
Post by: GeneralPresidentSkeletor on May 11, 2018, 01:08:04 AM
If rings are what it takes, nobody is touching Bill Russell. Also, rings are a TEAM achievement, so it's a stupid measuring stick.

People always talk about how "Jordan would be lights out in this era!", but completely skip over the idea of putting Lebron in the 80's & 90's. Lebron would still be Lebron in ANY era because he is an athletic freak of nature. Who is going to guard him from that era of ball? He's a PF in size and strength with guard speed and skills. There are/were maybe a handful that could have (Scottie had the length, Rodman the size and tenacity come to mind), and even then it's going to take everything they've got all damn night just to keep him from scoring more than 25. Players NOW are bigger and stronger and he's still making them look stupid on a nightly basis.

The "tough guys", The Mahorns and Oakleys of that era aren't guarding him out on the perimeter; they're too slow and plodding. He's breezing by them and throwing it down or pulling up for a mid-range shot. They don't have the ATHLETICISM, period.

Mike was a better scorer, no doubt, but that was his game. He has a lot of individual accolades; so does Lebron. If we're talking stats, he's going to end up in the top 20-25, at least, in EVERY major category (he's already approaching top 5 in points and top 10 in assists). Lebron's approach is completely different and he only looks to take over when he needs to. Which, lately, is every fucking game because he's playing with bums picked up off the street and thrown into a Cleveland uniform most nights.

Mike didn't do SHIT until he had Pippen, and that still took several years. Playing one-on-one against each other made them BOTH HoF greats (they'd play after practice, usually). Lebron managed to take Wally Szerbiack(sp) and the dude that fucked his mom (Delonte West iirc) to the Finals in his 3rd or 4th year in the league, in his early 20's. Yeah he lost...to the G.O.A.T. coach and a team with several dudes that will end up in the HoF (Parker & Duncan, at least). Give Mike that team and they'd get swept, too.

The only knock on Lebron is that he, after playing through 2 contracts with bum-ass Cleveland, went to Miami. That's literally it. And all to chase the rings y'all keep judging him by. And then? He led his hometown team to the last 3 Finals, against a team with 3-4 all stars on it, snagging another title. If you try to follow that up with "well, if it wasn't for Kyrie..." I'll hit you with "If it wasn't for Paxson & Kerr...". Don't even start with that nonsense.

Lebron is RIGHT NOW #2. When it's all said and done, he'll be #1. The fact that we're even having this debate while he's still, literally, the best player in the WORLD at 33 with no signs of slowing down is pretty indicative of where he's going to end up, barring any drastic or career-ending injuries.
Title: Re: Michael Jordan vs. LeBron James
Post by: DarthAlani on May 11, 2018, 12:48:08 PM
If Lebron can win the finals this year many would no question put him at number 1.  4 rings would be plenty as I don't put so much in the championship argument considering bball is a team sport.  Jordans Bulls also never beat a team as good as the Warriors.

Title: Re: Michael Jordan vs. LeBron James
Post by: pittfox on May 11, 2018, 11:50:25 PM
I have Jordan ahead but barely. LeBron is very close.
Title: Re: Michael Jordan vs. LeBron James
Post by: Wyntyr on May 12, 2018, 03:40:15 PM
Still Jordan
Title: Re: Michael Jordan vs. LeBron James
Post by: XerxesTWD on May 12, 2018, 05:06:10 PM
Still Jordan for now. LeBron will finish his career ahead in numerous ways.
Title: Re: Michael Jordan vs. LeBron James
Post by: Prime on May 12, 2018, 05:47:32 PM
Jordan for me. The eras they played in do play a part. Jordan was a lights out defender in his day, but I dont know how good he'd be in today's game where you can handcheck opposing guards to close the speed gap. However, I think any losses defensively would be mitigated by what he would gain offensively. Young Jordan was basically a healthy Derrick Rose with slightly better shooting. Prime Jordan with that lethal midrange would be unstoppable in today's game. I think Bron would more or less be the same in any era, as he is the best pure athlete maybe the world has ever seen (the fact that he hasn't had a major injury after 15 years playing the minutes he does is INSANE). Too strong for some, too quick and skilled for others. My heart of hearts cant give Lebron the goat title because Jordan showed and proved and was as clutch as they come, but I feel like Lebron can do more with less. If he hadn't loss that Finals series against the Mavs in his first season with the Heat where he played like shit...I feel like Lebron supporters might have a leg to stand on. But he didn't, so its Jordan for me.
Title: Re: Michael Jordan vs. LeBron James
Post by: pittfox on May 13, 2018, 05:23:31 AM
Rose isn't shit to Jordan. What the hell.
Title: Re: Michael Jordan vs. LeBron James
Post by: Prime on May 13, 2018, 05:59:47 PM
Jordan's game in his youth was roughly analogous to a healthy Derrick Rose. Super explosive, could blow by anybody and finish at the rim going a thousand miles an hour. Russell Westbrook has the same kind of athletic ability but Rose and Jordan could always finish at the rim no matter how fast they were going. Westbrook can't.
Title: Re: Michael Jordan vs. LeBron James
Post by: Mightily Oats on May 14, 2018, 02:48:03 PM
As someone who doesn't watch or like sports, it seems like LeBron by most standards other than nostalgia/not wanting to demythologize Jordan

Nevermind how many more years he has in him
Title: Re: Michael Jordan vs. LeBron James
Post by: Quan_the_Antagonist on May 14, 2018, 07:51:23 PM
There is no clear answer but every generation insists they saw the best guy.  It’s funny and I’m a guy who grew up loving Jordan.  There is no definitive greatest just an opinion.  It’s amusing to see fans insist they re right and blow their gaskets at a difference of opinion. The younger generation doesn’t even think it’s close.  This is their greatest athlete.  Older generation favors Jordan. 
Title: Re: Michael Jordan vs. LeBron James
Post by: Not BAMF on May 15, 2018, 08:30:28 AM
That is the most rational and well-thought-out Quan post ever. Commendable!
Title: Re: Michael Jordan vs. LeBron James
Post by: Ditto on May 15, 2018, 09:52:24 AM
It used to be flat out Jordan for me but every year Lebron sees another finals (win or lose) with questionable talent raises him ever so slightly in my eyes. Not to mention I wholly believe Lebron has more worth to a team due to his ability to play and defend each position in comparison to Jordan.
Title: Re: Michael Jordan vs. LeBron James
Post by: Pillow Biter on May 23, 2018, 11:00:50 AM
These discussions tend to go poorly because people tend to weight career accomplishments vs. prime play.

That being said, I tend to mostly think of how great a player's prime is, provided it is of sufficient length. I tend to think of it as: "You are a GM. You have to pick one of them in their respective primes for one for a season, with players being given a reasonable amount of time to adjust to technology and rules changes."

With that in mind, I still favor Jordan. But Lebron is #2 for me.

I do feel that not enough attention is given to the rule changes allowing more zone-like defenses, and the resulting increase in defensive sophistication since the nineties; instead, it tends to all be about the handcheck and overall greater physicality of nineties ball. Both changes are important, and I don't exactly know how it all comes out when comparing eras. That said, I see no reason to think that greatest perimeter/wing player in NBA history wouldn't do better under rules clearly designed to favor such players; even given the superior all-around athleticism of today's league. I have no doubt Jordan would become a superior 3-point shooter very quickly, and soon a great one. He purposely avoided learning how to take threes as he felt that attempting them diluted his aggressiveness. Jordan could also easily adapt to the modern games ball movement. He could pass with the best of them, and could even have become an all-time great passer if Chicago had decided this was the best use of his talents. Way back in the day, they played MJ as PG for a minute and he basically averaged a triple double iirc. So MJ could definitely be a great hybrid PG/Sg like Harden, etc. And he could still play defense.

Title: Re: Michael Jordan vs. LeBron James
Post by: XerxesTWD on May 23, 2018, 01:39:55 PM
LeBron makes it to the playoffs and Finals through sheer athleticism and force of will.

Jordan definitely had much better supporting players.


LeBron will end up #1, but he's not there yet. I think I said this earlier or somewhere else. Whatever.
Title: Re: Michael Jordan vs. LeBron James
Post by: Clownprince23 on May 23, 2018, 04:57:25 PM
https://www.foxsports.com/san-diego/video/1237218883713


Interesting article comparing the teams of Jordan and Lebron.
Title: Re: Michael Jordan vs. LeBron James
Post by: Quan_the_Antagonist on June 01, 2018, 10:08:20 PM
LeBron is a force of nature.  This cast of pure shit is such an underdog it’s outrageous against a historically great team and LeBron puts up 50 plus.  The dude is a man amongst boys.  Oh and fuck JR Smith he’s such a dumb shit for that all time gaffe.
Title: Re: Michael Jordan vs. LeBron James
Post by: GeneralPresidentSkeletor on June 02, 2018, 05:51:35 AM
JR Smith is the dumbest motherfucker on the planet. Goes for the meaningless steal before halftime, costs them 3 points.

He clearly had no situational awareness at the end and dribbled away a chance to steal a victory. That said, Hill should have made both free throws.

Goes to show that rings are a TEAM accomplishment, because Lebron can go ahead and average a triple double for the rest of the series and it won't do any good. Game 2 will be a fucking SLAUGHTER; GS wins by 15, at least. Caves will get game 3 and then get finished in Oakland. It's him vs. 4 All-Stars. I haven't played basketball in any competitive sense in almost 20 years, and I'm pretty sure I can contribute more than these fucking bums.
Title: Re: Michael Jordan vs. LeBron James
Post by: Quan_the_Antagonist on June 02, 2018, 10:47:18 AM
Yeah, this is so one sided team wise it’s plain for anyone being objective to see.  If anyone is familiar with that cocksucker and pile of biased shit Skip Bayless you know what I’m saying.  I grew up a Jordan fan but the arguments Skip makes are pure cringe and fantasy based.  LeBron has shattered the greater number of titles alone being evidence you’re better. 
Title: Re: Michael Jordan vs. LeBron James
Post by: DarthAlani on June 02, 2018, 12:55:21 PM
I nearly punched through the TV watching the idiocy of JR Smith.
Title: Re: Michael Jordan vs. LeBron James
Post by: GeneralPresidentSkeletor on June 04, 2018, 04:01:44 AM
Yeah, this is so one sided team wise it’s plain for anyone being objective to see.  If anyone is familiar with that cocksucker and pile of biased shit Skip Bayless you know what I’m saying.  I grew up a Jordan fan but the arguments Skip makes are pure cringe and fantasy based.  LeBron has king of shattered the number of titles being evidence you’re better theories.
Unless you bring up Robert Horry or Bill Russell, then the goalposts get moved and being the G.O.A.T. turns into "Well, Jordan won all of his Finals appearances!". Lakers, Portland & Phoenix were GOOD teams but nowhere near what the Warriors are, and that was before they added Kevin Durant lol. Sonics were pretty good with Kemp & Payton, but that was their best year. Utah was VERY good, but with aging superstars in Stockton & Malone.
Title: Re: Michael Jordan vs. LeBron James
Post by: Quan_the_Antagonist on June 04, 2018, 01:01:33 PM
Yeah, this is so one sided team wise it’s plain for anyone being objective to see.  If anyone is familiar with that cocksucker and pile of biased shit Skip Bayless you know what I’m saying.  I grew up a Jordan fan but the arguments Skip makes are pure cringe and fantasy based.  LeBron has king of shattered the number of titles being evidence you’re better theories.
Unless you bring up Robert Horry or Bill Russell, then the goalposts get moved and being the G.O.A.T. turns into "Well, Jordan won all of his Finals appearances!". Lakers, Portland & Phoenix were GOOD teams but nowhere near what the Warriors are, and that was before they added Kevin Durant lol. Sonics were pretty good with Kemp & Payton, but that was their best year. Utah was VERY good, but with aging superstars in Stockton & Malone.
I agree and I grew up a Jordan guy.  Most accomplished doesn’t prove you’re the est ever because as you said it doesn’t address opponents, teammates, who was favored, etc.  I believe Jordan was favored in each finals.  The worst finals loss for LeBron was when he melted down against the Mavericks but since then he’s been a force.  Jordan also got bounced many times by great teams in the first round early in his career. 

That being said being the best to me means how you would stack up on your own starting a team or against someone one on one barring centers.  LeBron to me is bigger, stronger, faster, better at rebounding and passing.  Jordan to me is quicker, has better foot movement, a better defender though one could argue LeBron can guard every position, has a better fadeaway, and is more graceful at finishing at the hoop.  This is unmeasurable and a gut feeling but I feel Jordan is mentally tougher.  Both played in different eras and there is no right newer just opinions but years ago I said Jordan hands down and I can now say it’s a grey area.  I still personally favor Jordan but the last few years have shown me how great LeBron is.   This isn’t cut and dry to me anymore and one on one with time traveling technology I can’t imagine anything being more hyped than these two at their apex.
Title: Re: Michael Jordan vs. LeBron James
Post by: Quan_the_Antagonist on June 04, 2018, 02:08:38 PM
Excellent clip providing context and reasoning behind both double standards used for and against each guy.

https://youtu.be/ZaFfQRAoiEE
Title: Re: Michael Jordan vs. LeBron James
Post by: MTL76 on June 10, 2018, 02:59:41 PM
I would pick Jordan based on mental toughness. With his team down by one point and three seconds on the clock, Jordan wanted the ball Because in his mind, he knew he already had the game won. And when he got the ball, the opposing team knew it as well.

LeBron is still phenomenal and he just doesn’t have the same level of teammates as Jordan.
Title: Re: Michael Jordan vs. LeBron James
Post by: Pillow Biter on June 14, 2018, 11:10:18 AM
A lot hinges on just how much better one feels the players are today than in Jordan's era.
Title: Re: Michael Jordan vs. LeBron James
Post by: Not BAMF on June 14, 2018, 11:20:09 AM
A lot hinges on just how much better one feels the players are today than in Jordan's era.

I would argue that the average NBA player is much better now than the average player in Jordan's day. And the lower end of the league now is also better than the worst players in Jordan's time. I wouldn't be able to compare the best players from each era with much effectiveness, though, so... *shrug*.
Title: Re: Michael Jordan vs. LeBron James
Post by: XerxesTWD on June 14, 2018, 11:23:56 AM
I agree with that.
Title: Re: Michael Jordan vs. LeBron James
Post by: INDRA THUNDERER on June 19, 2018, 06:58:18 PM
A lot hinges on just how much better one feels the players are today than in Jordan's era.

I would argue that the average NBA player is much better now than the average player in Jordan's day. And the lower end of the league now is also better than the worst players in Jordan's time. I wouldn't be able to compare the best players from each era with much effectiveness, though, so... *shrug*.
except Defenses were a lot tougher during the 80's/90's...the play was rougher,remember the Jordan rules??the athleticism is higher now,but the game is more finesse imo.
Title: Re: Michael Jordan vs. LeBron James
Post by: Dlbiininja on July 02, 2018, 11:30:32 PM
Skeltor makes excellent points.  Jordan & the Bulls when they finally made it to the final also had a excellent teams when they went.
Pippen, hodges who was a 3 point beast & won the 3 point contest. He won the 3 point contest 3 times back to back & tied with Larry bird. 
    I think for the times Jordan won those rings they just had the better team components from the coach down. 

Oh & check out this article.  Makes a good point regarding the introduction to some expansion teams at that time.  Parallels some of what Skel says.

https://www.foxsports.com/nba/gallery/michael-jordan-lebron-james-nba-finals-playoffs-perfect-record-greatest-all-time-052617