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Entertainment => Music, Movies, Tv and Books => Topic started by: Kallor on December 10, 2017, 05:01:20 PM

Title: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: Kallor on December 10, 2017, 05:01:20 PM
The spoilers coming in after the world premiere yesterday are sparse but major., DO NOT continue unless you want to know things about the new movie before it opens this week.  There is some doubt the spoilers are real, so the following is not certain.

Edited to add some space for the following spoilers.



























-Rey parent's are apparently revealed to be random space junkers.  The twist is that her parents are unimportant nobodies.

-Rey and Kylo apparently join together briefly at the end to kill Snoke.  Luke Skywalker is somehow involved in this from afar and dies in the conflict.  Trying to stitch a sequence of events together suggests that Snoke has Rey hostage -> Kylo "aids" Rey and they take out Snoke -> Luke sends a force projection of himself to stop Kylo from killing Rey and somehow dies in the process via "force draining."

You guys think these are real?  Do you like them if they are?  Feel free to put anything you've found as the day will likely continue to trickle out new spoilers and confirm or debunk the existing ones.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: XerxesTWD on December 10, 2017, 06:14:37 PM
Spacer post














































A few more lines...






















Hopefully this makes it harder to see spoilers.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: MTL76 on December 10, 2017, 06:21:58 PM
Spoiler:























This movie is vanilla af.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: Kallor on December 10, 2017, 06:32:23 PM
Hopefully this makes it harder to see spoilers.

I've edited some space into my original post.  I thought the tag in the title would do it, sorry.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: 80sBaby on December 10, 2017, 07:21:30 PM
Rey not being a Skywalker (or Solo, at least) would be disappointing for me.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: Kallor on December 10, 2017, 07:42:33 PM
Rey not being a Skywalker (or Solo, at least) would be disappointing for me.

I agree.  I've noticed, though, that on sites like iO9 and the AV Club over the past two years, the opposite view was expressed more frequently in comments.  On dedicated Star Wars boards, however, the vast majority wanted her parents to be significant.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: MTL76 on December 10, 2017, 07:44:35 PM
I think it’s refreshing for her not to be a Skywalker but I still think the movie will be by-the-numbers.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: Kallor on December 10, 2017, 08:03:06 PM
I think it’s refreshing for her not to be a Skywalker but I still think the movie will be by-the-numbers.

It's subjective, of course, so I'm not saying you're wrong, but here's my take on it:

Whether these kind of twists work depends on the setting for me.  Teasing significance and then revealing the mundane can absolutely work and be humorous or poignant commentary on the nature of life, belief or even just keep a story from becoming cliche.

Star Wars, however, is the hero's journey writ large via space fantasy.  It's all about destiny, chosen ones and spiritual forces guiding the universe.  With Star Wars I want big picture, I want things connected and epic.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: 80sBaby on December 10, 2017, 10:21:42 PM
That last thing Kallor said.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: Ditto on December 10, 2017, 10:27:21 PM
If you die as a force ghost, you die in real life!

This sounds awful.

If they succeed in killing snoke, does that mean Ren is the big bad in 9? Because he doesn’t seem like he could fill that role.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: Mightily Oats on December 10, 2017, 10:46:20 PM
I think it’s refreshing for her not to be a Skywalker but I still think the movie will be by-the-numbers.
I want her to be a Kenobi, if she's anybody, and her being more powerful than everyone/ a Skywalker half breed is retarded based on everything we know about Star Wars

Unless we find out Ren is a weak ass bitch

But more powerful than Luke?

Eat all my dicks
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: Uhtceare on December 11, 2017, 12:09:21 AM
I want her to be a Palpatine. I like the idea that the granddaughter of the last trilogy's Big Bad turns out to be the hero of the next trilogy.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: MTL76 on December 11, 2017, 12:10:46 AM
But more powerful than Luke?

Eat all my dicks
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: Bandido on December 11, 2017, 03:03:50 AM
That's already guaranteed from the trailer.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: HalloweenJack on December 11, 2017, 05:59:27 PM
I want her to be a Palpatine. I like the idea that the granddaughter of the last trilogy's Big Bad turns out to be the hero of the next trilogy.

i'm honestly expecting a half-assed reincarnation of Anakin myself
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: 80sBaby on December 11, 2017, 06:42:18 PM
i'm honestly expecting a half-assed reincarnation of Anakin myself

That's the only other thing I would be ok with (besides being Luke or Leia's kid.)
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: MTL76 on December 11, 2017, 07:44:42 PM
I would love for Rey to turn to the Dark Side and Ren have to stop her. The Mary Sue would have a meltdown.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: Mightily Oats on December 11, 2017, 08:02:24 PM
I want her to be a Palpatine. I like the idea that the granddaughter of the last trilogy's Big Bad turns out to be the hero of the next trilogy.

i'm honestly expecting a half-assed reincarnation of Anakin myself
Yeah but that's literally what Luke is
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: Bandido on December 11, 2017, 08:04:41 PM
I would love for Rey to turn to the Dark Side and Ren have to stop her. The Mary Sue would have a meltdown.

That's too clever for this franchise now.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: NeoGreenLantern on December 11, 2017, 08:33:37 PM
I want her to be a Palpatine. I like the idea that the granddaughter of the last trilogy's Big Bad turns out to be the hero of the next trilogy.

i'm honestly expecting a half-assed reincarnation of Anakin myself
Yeah but that's literally what Luke is

Except the part where Luke was alive the same time as Anakin.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: HalloweenJack on December 11, 2017, 08:55:02 PM
I want her to be a Palpatine. I like the idea that the granddaughter of the last trilogy's Big Bad turns out to be the hero of the next trilogy.

i'm honestly expecting a half-assed reincarnation of Anakin myself
Yeah but that's literally what Luke is

I was thinking more of a literal literal reincarnation of Anakin.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: nu-safado on December 12, 2017, 01:14:25 AM
I saw two spoiler videos that both had completely plausible but different plots. I only trust elements of what I know will happen

Snoke uses force drains (aka Darth Nihilius of some kind)

Luke does something very cool but hes a broken man for most of the film

that's pretty much it everythig else contradicts itself
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: AP on December 12, 2017, 06:32:04 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2lCW-iaOZ_M (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2lCW-iaOZ_M)

Redletter Media parody of youtube reviewers so no real spoilers.  Funny anyway.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: Mightily Oats on December 12, 2017, 01:03:29 PM
I want her to be a Palpatine. I like the idea that the granddaughter of the last trilogy's Big Bad turns out to be the hero of the next trilogy.

i'm honestly expecting a half-assed reincarnation of Anakin myself
Yeah but that's literally what Luke is

Except the part where Luke was alive the same time as Anakin.
I want her to be a Palpatine. I like the idea that the granddaughter of the last trilogy's Big Bad turns out to be the hero of the next trilogy.

i'm honestly expecting a half-assed reincarnation of Anakin myself
Yeah but that's literally what Luke is

I was thinking more of a literal literal reincarnation of Anakin.
Lucas has said that Luke is what Anakin would or could have been

But SUPERliteral, okay
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: NeoGreenLantern on December 12, 2017, 01:32:58 PM
You should just feel lucky AP didn't come at you for using literally figuratively.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: MTL76 on December 12, 2017, 01:50:03 PM
Next battle of the week: Literally Vs. Ironically.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: nu-safado on December 12, 2017, 02:05:42 PM
In lieu of a DC Movie verse that is leaving me dissatisfied (minus Superman - he's doing great) I've become a huge Star Wars fan

If they nerf Luke's power level here or kill him off for the hell of it, I will be seriously disappointed One of the coolest things about Star Wars is that we don't even realize it but it's really the story of Anakin Skywalker and the Skywalkers. At first viewing i comes across as the story of Luke, but the whole arc revolves around Luke redeeming the good man that was Anakin Skywalker


Luke is all of the unlimited power Anakin would have been if he hadn't been char-broiled, plus all the moral certitude that Anakin lost at the most crucial moment.

Don't fuck with Luke man PLEASE :-(
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: Bandido on December 12, 2017, 05:01:18 PM
It's going to happen because 2018-WOMENZ_POWAHHHHH
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: HalloweenJack on December 12, 2017, 05:49:34 PM
Next battle of the week: Literally Vs. Ironically.

that could be interesting.....metaphorically speaking
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: AP on December 12, 2017, 06:20:45 PM
Next battle of the week: Literally Vs. Ironically.

that could be interesting.....metaphorically speaking

*triggered*
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: NeoGreenLantern on December 12, 2017, 06:46:50 PM
Next battle of the week: Literally Vs. Ironically.

that could be interesting.....metaphorically speaking

figuratively metaphorically or literally metaphorically?
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: HalloweenJack on December 12, 2017, 07:25:27 PM
yes
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: AP on December 12, 2017, 09:14:29 PM
This is worse than watching Force Awakens.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: NeoGreenLantern on December 12, 2017, 09:28:12 PM
Metaphysically worse or figurephorically worse?
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: AP on December 12, 2017, 10:40:08 PM
Metaphysically worse or figurephorically worse?

Literafiguraphorically.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: HalloweenJack on December 13, 2017, 04:44:37 PM
for real?
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: AP on December 13, 2017, 04:48:02 PM
Figuratively real.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: HalloweenJack on December 13, 2017, 08:11:13 PM
time is broken
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: skyrider on December 14, 2017, 09:05:30 AM
Spoilers

































Keep going



















Keep going
















Snoke dies
Rey is a nobody
Luke does some cool stuff
A little green guy comes back
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: AP on December 14, 2017, 05:30:11 PM
You know, putting spoilders at the end of your post defeats the point of spacing.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: Kallor on December 14, 2017, 10:49:36 PM
I need some time to let it settle, I'm sure, but my overall feeling right after seeing this is "wtf" in a negative way. 
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: nu-safado on December 15, 2017, 02:02:46 AM
I dunno. I thought it went bold, took creative risks and I liked it  still WTF indeed
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: Commander on December 15, 2017, 02:30:52 AM
Did they explain why a nobody had the light sabre triggering all images when she held it?

Unless the light sabre is actually a green lantern ring in disguise held once by it's dead protector  :o

Will her hallucinations trigger on a Mattel-made light sabre?
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: Bandido on December 15, 2017, 02:48:11 AM
https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2017/12/star-wars-the-last-jedi-is-luke-skywalker-dead-what-happened-to-luke

Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: Ditto on December 15, 2017, 10:29:12 AM
Did they explain why a nobody had the light sabre triggering all images when she held it?

Unless the light sabre is actually a green lantern ring in disguise held once by it's dead protector  :o

Will her hallucinations trigger on a Mattel-made light sabre?

It came across as the force being wildly different from what we’re used to, honestly. And snoke himself said he was fucking with their minds and making rey feel important so she’d lead him to Luke
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: MTL76 on December 15, 2017, 11:12:26 AM
Did Kylo Ren and Rey have a rematch?
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: Kallor on December 15, 2017, 11:59:31 AM
Did Kylo Ren and Rey have a rematch?

No, there is no lightsaber duel in this movie.  Snoke links their minds together so that Rey and Kylo can speak to each other across the galaxy.  Unlike what Ditto said, I don't recall Snoke taking credit for the visions in TFA or anything else regarding Rey's journey.   Rey thinks she sees redemption in Kylo and goes to him.  Kylo brings her to Snoke, who taunts her that Kylo is fully his creature.  Kylo sneak attacks Snoke with Rey's lightsaber, which was on the table at Snoke's side, activating it and slicing Snoke in half.  Rey and Kylo then fight as a team against Snoke's red guards (they wield partial-energy weapons).  Rey thinks this means that Kylo is good and throws him her lightsaber to save him.  When it becomes clear that they are not actually on the same side, there is a force tug of war over her lightsaber that neither wins (the lightsaber is pulled apart).
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: MTL76 on December 15, 2017, 12:01:43 PM
Why did Kylo kill Snoke? Feel free to spoil,I won’t see it until it’s out on DVD.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: Kallor on December 15, 2017, 12:06:13 PM
Why did Kylo kill Snoke? Feel free to spoil,I won’t see it until it’s out on DVD.

Snoke was demeaning him the whole movie.  At one point he calls him a silly child playing with a mask which incites Kylo to move towards him in anger and Snoke hits him with force lightning (done in a different way than we've seen, not from Snoke's fingers).  Ultimately, though, I think he just saw his shot at being the leader and took it, he was never going to beat Snoke head on. 
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: Ditto on December 15, 2017, 03:23:03 PM
Did Kylo Ren and Rey have a rematch?

No, there is no lightsaber duel in this movie.  Snoke links their minds together so that Rey and Kylo can speak to each other across the galaxy.  Unlike what Ditto said, I don't recall Snoke taking credit for the visions in TFA or anything else regarding Rey's journey.   Rey thinks she sees redemption in Kylo and goes to him.  Kylo brings her to Snoke, who taunts her that Kylo is fully his creature.  Kylo sneak attacks Snoke with Rey's lightsaber, which was on the table at Snoke's side, activating it and slicing Snoke in half.  Rey and Kylo then fight as a team against Snoke's red guards (they wield partial-energy weapons).  Rey thinks this means that Kylo is good and throws him her lightsaber to save him.  When it becomes clear that they are not actually on the same side, there is a force tug of war over her lightsaber that neither wins (the lightsaber is pulled apart).

I just kind of assumed it was all linked, considering she was having flashbacks to Kylo and Luke and Snoke took credit for connecting their minds in this one. Seemed like the most logical explanation to me.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: Uhtceare on December 16, 2017, 12:03:59 AM
It's a shame that they didn't have Leia be the one who rammed the ship. That would have been the perfect end to her character. No support, no weapons, almost no fuel, and Leia still does out like a boss, ramming her ship up the Empire's ass at lightspeed. It would have been the perfect bittersweet end to her. If they had known this would be her last movie, I'm sure that's how they would have done it.

Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: Commander on December 16, 2017, 12:34:27 AM
Haha... Entaro Tassadar!
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: Uhtceare on December 16, 2017, 03:41:45 AM
Rey's belief that she could turn Kylo to the lightside was hilariously arrogant.

 Vader had every reason to turn. (1)He'd always been someone who's berzerker button was family. If you hurt his family, lightside, darkside, mundane, it doesn't matter, HE WOULD END YOU. (2) Falling to the Darkside had reduced him to a cripple on life-support. That's a huge difference from Kylo, for whom going Darkside had, as far as he knows, saved him from a crazy uncle and the parents who left him with the crazy uncle. (3) He'd had years to think about his son and how his life had become a living Hell because of Vader's actions. Years to erode his faith in the Darkside an inch at a time for years. Whereas Rey had....a few psionic Skype calls? Seriously? You've got to have outrageous faith in the power of your pussy to think you can pull that off that fast.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: AP on December 16, 2017, 11:24:50 AM
I saw it tonight.  It was better than Force Awakens.  It was alright.  I'll get more in depth tomorrow.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: MTL76 on December 16, 2017, 04:31:49 PM
So Twitter is all abuzz about how this movie is racist.

#starwarshatespoc is trending and what I’m reading is very problematic.

Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: AP on December 16, 2017, 06:46:25 PM
So here we go...

THE GOOD:

Rey was more interesting this time around as she had clear motives, a personality, was flawed, and things didn't always come easily to her.  Her big moment at the end was much more satisfying because of this.

Finn is still probably my favorite part of this new series because his arc is unlike anything we've seen in the movies before.  He's trying to find where he fits in in all of this, still coming to grips with his fear, and still getting over the manipulation of the First Order.  And we finally got a fight between him and Phasma.

I feel like every Star Wars movie should show at least one new locale we haven't seen before.  Force Awakens didn't really give any new locations, but I was glad to see the ancient Jedi ruins, the casino, and the salt mines.

It was good to see Yoda again.

The Kylo vs Luke scene was beautifully shot.  That really looked gorgeous.  There were other shots such as cruiser ramming the First Order fleet, which looked amazing.  I'm pretty glad they replaced JJ Abrams.

Luke's send off was much better than Han's.  It had emotional and thematic weight, especially since we got a moment between Luke and Leia before it (as well as a wink to C3PO).  I assume we'll see Luke as a force ghost in the next movie.

A lot of people thought Leia's use of the Force looked cheesy.  I didn't mind it so much.  Using the Force in space to "fly" makes sense and considering she was in a coma for a while after her stunt so she was still in danger.

THE BAD:

Kylo is still not an intimidating villain.  He's whiny and gets his ass kicked too much for me to really fear him.  Also, I don't get why Luke would find him irredeemable.  He saw that there was still good in Vader even though the guy seemed to be pure evil.  Kylo is outwordly conflicted, so you'd think Luke would sense something there.

While they at least explained how the First Order came into power, it's still a pretty boring villain group.  It's just the Empire 2.0 but with a less interesting Palaptine, Vader, and Grand Moff Tarkin at the helm.  Captain Phasma looked cool, but she's dead now.

Leia's conflict with Poe makes no sense as there would be no reason for her not to explain her plan.  The secrecy and "betrayal" subplot was pointless and just there for drama.  It's made worse by Laura Dern's character randomly coming in and out of the story.  The entire subplot slowed the movie down quite a bit.

Rose was annoying at the end.  So she doesn't want Finn to sacrifice himself, so she rams into his speeder which nearly gets him killed, gets herself severely injured, and now they're both in the middle of a salt field with the First Order right in front of them with no way of immediate escape.  To make things even more awkward, she kisses Finn (I didn't get a romance vibe) while the Resistance base is getting blasted as if fireworks were going off behind them,  Your friends are about to die, kiddo, maybe now isn't the best time for forced romance?

The subtitles that popped up every time a character came on screen were weird and distracting.  We don't need a blurb telling us who Luke Skywalker is or explain Princess Leia's message to Obi-Wan.  In the case of Leia's message being played, it took away from a scene that would otherwise be very powerful.

All in all, an improvement over Force Awakens.

EDIT: Apparently the subtitle thing was only in South Korea.  Weird since the subs wer ein both English and Korean.  I assumed everyone had them.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: Bandido on December 16, 2017, 06:57:19 PM
http://www.denofgeek.com/us/movies/star-wars/269657/toxic-masculinity-is-the-true-villain-of-star-wars-the-last-jedi

"Toxic Masculinity" - lol
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: AP on December 16, 2017, 07:12:29 PM
So Twitter is all abuzz about how this movie is racist.

#starwarshatespoc is trending and what I’m reading is very problematic.

http://www.denofgeek.com/us/movies/star-wars/269657/toxic-masculinity-is-the-true-villain-of-star-wars-the-last-jedi

"Toxic Masculinity" - lol

This is why SJWs can't have nice things.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: Kallor on December 16, 2017, 09:17:41 PM
I wanted more (some?) info on Snoke.  Some fans point to the Emperor having no backstory in the original trilogy, but that feels disingenuous.

When Palpatine is introduced the audience is in a different position than they are for the sequel trilogy.  There's no reason to question Palpatine's power, position, or that he's anything other than he is because there's no story baggage present to suggest we should. 

Snoke comes into the picture when the Star Wars universe is much more fleshed out.  As a thousand year old immensely powerful dark side user there are naturally going to be questions like where he was during the prior films if he's so powerful, what his relationship is or isn't to the sith that we thought were gone for good, etc.  The answers don't need to be detailed or elaborate, but it's something that should be addressed.

Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: Master on December 16, 2017, 09:56:20 PM
The Good:

- Force ghost Yoda. I was wondering if Luke still saw his old masters, and oh yeah... that was great. Nice to see puppet Yoda again. Perfect scene.
- Poe’s arc. He actually learned things! And it pointed out that hey... you can’t defeat a more powerful enemy with nothing but suicide missions. Eventually you deplete your ranks faster than them.
- Most of the humor. Solid humor overall. Loved Luke tossing the lightsaber. And the porgs giving Chewie a guilt trip.
- The visuals in general. That salt mine planet was full of gorgeous scenes. Lots of new visuals and locales.
- The brief exploration of the wealthy side of Star Wars. I know the comics have shown it a bit, but nice to see it on screen. Empire, Republic, First Order... these people make their money and live large.
- Finn vs. Phasma.
- The Ren/Rey long-range Force communications. Just very interesting scenes, and later finding out they were a manipulation by Snoke? Makes it even more interesting.
- That this was not a rehash of Empire Strikes Back.

The Not So Good:

- Some of the humor was pushed too far. Particularly with Hux for some odd reason. Him getting “stalled” by Poe went into goofball territory. His treatment by Snoke and later by Ren too was just... too goofy. Out of place for the scenes.
- In hindsight, the Finn/Rose mission. It was fine as I watched it, but then it ultimately led to nothing. I guess the writers were just throwing a curveball at the audience? Very rare a mission fails like that in a big action movie.
- The casino planet bit went on too long. And because the mission goes nowhere, I can tell this stretch will be boring on repeat viewings. Because there will be no cool pay off.
- Vice Admiral Hondo had a plan... didn’t share it with Poe... and basically sparked Poe’s mutiny. Hey, she went out like a boss, but rather than treat him like shit, she could’ve just communicated the plan. Granted, she became leader by default when Leia was injured, so I guess she was just a shitty leader. But that conflict irked me.
- Kylo Ren still being conflicted. Dude, you killed your dad. If you still aren’t feeling evil enough after that, then you should know you made a huge fucking mistake and start repenting. I actually thought he would turn good again... manipulated by Snoke when young, huge misunderstanding with Luke, and now becoming a man who sees the err of his ways. Instead, he still wants to try being evil. And Luke tosses his some shade about how he is still conflicted at the end.
- With Snoke gone (a bold move), Ren is it for us? Not even an Uber-finally-trained Ren. Just a still-conflicted Ren who hasn’t grown since the last movie. I don’t know, guys...

The Great:
- The lessons/discussion about the Force. Good stuff. Actual discussion about how the Jedi were never all they held themselves out to be... but then realizing that perfection is too lofty a goal, and the next generation should always seek to outgrow the last.
- The hyperspace suicide crash. It made sense from a story standpoint, and the visual/audio execution was amazing. A real HOT DAMN moment.
- Snoke dying. HOLY FUCK! Did they just kill off the presumed main bad guy a little over halfway through the second part of this trilogy? BOLD.
- The fight against Snoke’s guards. That was just cool as fuck due the variety of weapons and seeing two Force-users in a melee group battle. In hindsight, it’s even better because Rey and Ren each think the other has joined their side. The ending disappointment when they each realize the other won’t turn is played so well by both actors.
- The darkside cavern/wall along with the light side stone/cliff area. The more esoteric uses of the Force. The visuals for those scenes.
- Luke’s entire distraction/stall at the end. Epic even once you realize it was a trick. Fanboys were probably splooging in theater aisles when they thought he blocked or dodged the giant laser bombardment. 
- Chewie out-piloting roughly a dozen TIE fighters.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: Master on December 16, 2017, 10:03:10 PM
I wanted more (some?) info on Snoke.  Some fans point to the Emperor having no backstory in the original trilogy, but that feels disingenuous.

When Palpatine is introduced the audience is in a different position than they are for the sequel trilogy.  There's no reason to question Palpatine's power, position, or that he's anything other than he is because there's no story baggage present to suggest we should. 

Snoke comes into the picture when the Star Wars universe is much more fleshed out.  As a thousand year old immensely powerful dark side user there are naturally going to be questions like where he was during the prior films if he's so powerful, what his relationship is or isn't to the sith that we thought were gone for good, etc.  The answers don't need to be detailed or elaborate, but it's something that should be addressed.

I agree 100%. It’s not a fatal flaw by any means, but where the fuck did this guy come from? How did he get to be so powerful? How did he take over the First Order after the Empire fell?

The easy answers are (1) stayed hidden until he saw a power vacuum he could exploit, (2) just naturally powerful, and (3) easy to take over when you’re a powerful Force user. But that feels cheap for the character. Especially since he has the huge scars which hint at a tragic backstory or prior epic defeat.

And now he’s dead, so yeah. Maybe they’ll do a comic to tell us one day...
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: Master on December 16, 2017, 10:06:22 PM
http://www.denofgeek.com/us/movies/star-wars/269657/toxic-masculinity-is-the-true-villain-of-star-wars-the-last-jedi

"Toxic Masculinity" - lol

That’s a shit stupid article on a site full of pop-ups/ad bullshit.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: AP on December 16, 2017, 10:17:01 PM
I wanted more (some?) info on Snoke.  Some fans point to the Emperor having no backstory in the original trilogy, but that feels disingenuous.

When Palpatine is introduced the audience is in a different position than they are for the sequel trilogy.  There's no reason to question Palpatine's power, position, or that he's anything other than he is because there's no story baggage present to suggest we should. 

Snoke comes into the picture when the Star Wars universe is much more fleshed out.  As a thousand year old immensely powerful dark side user there are naturally going to be questions like where he was during the prior films if he's so powerful, what his relationship is or isn't to the sith that we thought were gone for good, etc.  The answers don't need to be detailed or elaborate, but it's something that should be addressed.

I agree 100%. It’s not a fatal flaw by any means, but where the fuck did this guy come from? How did he get to be so powerful? How did he take over the First Order after the Empire fell?

The easy answers are (1) stayed hidden until he saw a power vacuum he could exploit, (2) just naturally powerful, and (3) easy to take over when you’re a powerful Force user. But that feels cheap for the character. Especially since he has the huge scars which hint at a tragic backstory or prior epic defeat.

And now he’s dead, so yeah. Maybe they’ll do a comic to tell us one day...

Yeah, I figure we'll learn more about him maybe even in the next movie.  I actually wonder if he'll come back as a Force Ghost since we have yet to see a Sith pull that off.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: Master on December 16, 2017, 10:25:42 PM
I guarantee Luke will be back as a ghost to help guide Rey. Snoke...

Maybe.

Now that I think about it, they mention in TFA that Snoke was considering a clone army. It would be a massive surprise to have Snoke come back in the flesh, revealing that he is long-lived due to using clone bodies. You could then have a Snoke faction, a Ren faction, and the new Rebellion duke it out for all the marbles.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: AP on December 16, 2017, 10:34:57 PM
I think it was Hux who said he wanted clones instead of human troopers.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: Master on December 16, 2017, 11:32:30 PM
It was Kylo chastising Hux over his troops being sloppy (and Finn being a traitor), saying perhaps Snoke should pursue a clone army like he had been thinking. Hux fires back that his troopers are conditioned from birth and optimally trained.

Pure long-shot speculation and very unlikely, but cloning would be a way to explain Snoke being long-lived and bring him back for the next movie. I’d also be pleased with him as a reluctant Force ghost mentor for Ren.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: NeoGreenLantern on December 16, 2017, 11:58:42 PM
Quote
In hindsight, the Finn/Rose mission. It was fine as I watched it, but then it ultimately led to nothing. I guess the writers were just throwing a curveball at the audience? Very rare a mission fails like that in a big action movie.

I think that was kinda the point of a lot of the fuck ups in this movie just like Poe's suicide run on the dreadnaught that got a lot of people killed. I think they wanted to show the good guys running out of luck because, lets be honest a lot of the Rebel's missions rely heavily on luck.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: NeoGreenLantern on December 16, 2017, 11:58:59 PM
Oh I'm sorry I mean the force.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: Von Doom on December 17, 2017, 02:20:16 AM
The Good:

- The Ren/Rey long-range Force communications. Just very interesting scenes, and later finding out they were a manipulation by Snoke? Makes it even more interesting.
I wonder about that. They still had it at the end. It could just be the type of thing that remains in place once created, not needing to be maintained. Or it could be that Snoke could sense the connection, didn't like what it meant (no idea what that would be just yet) and took credit for it to get in Rey's head.

Quote
The Not So Good:
- Kylo Ren still being conflicted. Dude, you killed your dad. If you still aren’t feeling evil enough after that, then you should know you made a huge fucking mistake and start repenting. I actually thought he would turn good again... manipulated by Snoke when young, huge misunderstanding with Luke, and now becoming a man who sees the err of his ways. Instead, he still wants to try being evil. And Luke tosses his some shade about how he is still conflicted at the end.

I'm not so sure that Ren's conflicted in the classical "Light or Dark" Darth Vader kind of way. The only one who repeatedly mentions it is Rey, and I'm not sure she's reading it correctly. Like Snoke said, she's powerful but not very wise. To me it seems the conflict was whether he should continue down the path Snoke laid out for him or to forge his own - either one being Dark. He seems to battle with whether or not to fully leave the past or "kill it if necessary" as he says a few times. He finally overcame that indecision, killed Snoke, and seemed ready to kill his mother at the end, something he was unable to do earlier.


I did like the movie overall. There were a few bits that I didn't like, most of which was covered here already. One thing I must have missed though: people have mentioned something about the last scene with the little kids and one showing some kind of force potential. I didn't notice that. What did he do?
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: AP on December 17, 2017, 02:58:38 AM
The Good:

- The Ren/Rey long-range Force communications. Just very interesting scenes, and later finding out they were a manipulation by Snoke? Makes it even more interesting.
I wonder about that. They still had it at the end. It could just be the type of thing that remains in place once created, not needing to be maintained. Or it could be that Snoke could sense the connection, didn't like what it meant (no idea what that would be just yet) and took credit for it to get in Rey's head.

Quote
The Not So Good:
- Kylo Ren still being conflicted. Dude, you killed your dad. If you still aren’t feeling evil enough after that, then you should know you made a huge fucking mistake and start repenting. I actually thought he would turn good again... manipulated by Snoke when young, huge misunderstanding with Luke, and now becoming a man who sees the err of his ways. Instead, he still wants to try being evil. And Luke tosses his some shade about how he is still conflicted at the end.

I'm not so sure that Ren's conflicted in the classical "Light or Dark" Darth Vader kind of way. The only one who repeatedly mentions it is Rey, and I'm not sure she's reading it correctly. Like Snoke said, she's powerful but not very wise. To me it seems the conflict was whether he should continue down the path Snoke laid out for him or to forge his own - either one being Dark. He seems to battle with whether or not to fully leave the past or "kill it if necessary" as he says a few times. He finally overcame that indecision, killed Snoke, and seemed ready to kill his mother at the end, something he was unable to do earlier.


I did like the movie overall. There were a few bits that I didn't like, most of which was covered here already. One thing I must have missed though: people have mentioned something about the last scene with the little kids and one showing some kind of force potential. I didn't notice that. What did he do?

The kid with the broom moved it to his hand without fully reaching for it.  It was subtle.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: Von Doom on December 17, 2017, 03:23:18 AM
The kid with the broom moved it to his hand without fully reaching for it.  It was subtle.

Cool. Thanks.

Any chance there will be real, personal repercussions for Poe's actions? Twice he violated orders and got a lot of people killed, and so far as I could tell, Leia and Co were fine with it because he learned he probably shouldn't do that anymore. I get that they're low on personnel, and he probably will be better about that sort of thing in the future, but it seems a bit of a stretch that he'd ever have any kind of command again. Obviously, this is a movie and not the real world, but yeah, those were some execution-level screw ups.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: AP on December 17, 2017, 04:21:30 AM
The kid with the broom moved it to his hand without fully reaching for it.  It was subtle.

Cool. Thanks.

Any chance there will be real, personal repercussions for Poe's actions? Twice he violated orders and got a lot of people killed, and so far as I could tell, Leia and Co were fine with it because he learned he probably shouldn't do that anymore. I get that they're low on personnel, and he probably will be better about that sort of thing in the future, but it seems a bit of a stretch that he'd ever have any kind of command again. Obviously, this is a movie and not the real world, but yeah, those were some execution-level screw ups.

I thought Leia and Laura Dern screwed by not telling their crew what they were doing so fair’s fair.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: Master on December 17, 2017, 08:06:09 AM
I’ve heard people complain that the First Order didn’t fly ships out ahead of the cruiser at hyperspeed and then circle back to box them in quickly. This just seems to be another example of evil’s hubris. They are so certain of their current plan succeeding, that they do no make alterations.

1) Tarkin won’t leave the Death Star because he’s so assured of their victory. They also don’t just fly to a different place with a clear shot at the Yavin base. They feel in invincible and that orbiting for a while is no big deal.

2) The Emperor puts all of the proverbial eggs in one basket to draw out the Rebels in ROTJ because he is so certain of victory. The majority of his fleet, the new super weapon, himself... and they fail for it.

So this was just a continuing trend. The current plan was working. They felt the Resistance had to escape. They were fine just staying the course.

But here is a somewhat valid criticism... Finn and Rose has a mission to complete in less than one day. Rey spent a few days hanging out with Luke. Easy answer? Days are shorter on Ach-To... but that was never mentioned. So it just seems like poor planning in the writing.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: AP on December 17, 2017, 08:21:06 AM
Yeah, that is a bit confusing.  Empire Strikes Back had similar weird issues as Han, Leia, etc seemed to go to Cloud City in one day and maybe stay there overnight before Vader froze Han.  Meanwhile, it seems that Luke was training for a week or two with Yoda.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: Master on December 17, 2017, 09:33:38 AM
Yeah, that is a bit confusing.  Empire Strikes Back had similar weird issues as Han, Leia, etc seemed to go to Cloud City in one day and maybe stay there overnight before Vader froze Han.  Meanwhile, it seems that Luke was training for a week or two with Yoda.

True, but the wiggle room in ESB is how long the asteroid field chase went on for. And then how long it took them to fly to Cloud City with no hyperdrive. They had to fly long enough for Boba to calculate the destination, tell the Empire, and then the Empire arrived ahead of them to overtake the city and hide in waiting.

It’s a stretch that it all took a week, but it’s at least plausible.

This movie gave us a very definitive deadline for Finn/Rose that makes no sense compared to how long Rey was with Luke (seemed to observe him a few days before he finally trained her).
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: Master on December 17, 2017, 09:52:18 AM
QUESTION

Luke says Ren left with some of his students and killed the rest. I assume these are the Knights of Ren. Where are they? Rey sees them briefly with Ren in TFA’s Force vision, which I assumed THEN was Ren slaughtering Luke’s students. But now we know Ren has nothing planned that night and just got spooked by Luke.

So I guess these guys will finally show up next movie? But where have they been? Was Snoke training them too? Is “Knights of Ren” just some childish name Ben Solo came up with, or was it an order of Force users Snoke already had?

QUESTION

If Rey’s parents were nobodies who lived and died on Jakku as drunks, then how come we see them flying away in a ship in TFA’s Force vision? Not everyone owns a ship in Star Wars. They do cost money, and it seems like selling your child into slavery for booze money is pretty extreme... especially when you have a ship.

Also, the Force vision showed a series of very poignant events that all seemed tied to the lightsaber itself. Luke and Vader’s duel. Some words from Yoda when he trained Luke. Her coming forest fight with Ren in TFA. Maybe a future fight with the Knights of Ren (she still has the saber at the end of TLJ even if it is broken). And then her being left behind on Jakku.

This leads me to believe her parents had the lightsaber on that ship. Or at least present on Jakku during that moment.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: Bandido on December 17, 2017, 12:53:50 PM
That's right, what did happen to the Knights if Ren...
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: AP on December 17, 2017, 06:14:35 PM
I assume we will find out in the third movie.  With Kylo acting as the new Supreme Leader, he will be more likely to bring in his knights.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: 80sBaby on December 17, 2017, 07:28:04 PM
Sounds like Rian Johnson ignored all the plot points set up in TFA, other than where the characters were physically.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: AP on December 17, 2017, 07:46:34 PM
Sounds like Rian Johnson ignored all the plot points set up in TFA, other than where the characters were physically.

Are we sure this was Johnson's doing?  I thought Abrams and Kennedy had the general plot for Last Jedi worked out and just had Johnson come in to write and direct?  As much of a well oiled machine as the Star Wars films are right now, I'd be pretty shocked to learn one director did his own thing.  I mean, they fired the original Last Jedi director during pre-production and also fired the Han Solo directors after filming began because they didn't play ball.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: 80sBaby on December 17, 2017, 08:43:44 PM
From what I've seen, this was Johnson's movie. That's why they gave him a 3 picture deal based off what they saw. Hamill has said it's Johnson's film/vision, too.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: Master on December 17, 2017, 09:50:09 PM
I assume we will find out in the third movie.  With Kylo acting as the new Supreme Leader, he will be more likely to bring in his knights.

If they skip ahead 5 years and make this Knights of Ren vs new Jedi Order, then I like where things are heading.

And it could actually point to where Johnson’s new non-Skywalkers trilogy is heading: the adventures of true new Jedi led by Rey, who defeated Kylo Ren and the last darkside religion. Still plenty of space swashbuckling action to explore, as they establish the groundwork for a new government that eliminates the crime syndicates and weapon manufacturers that have fueled unrest for centuries.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: AP on December 17, 2017, 10:48:15 PM
From what I've seen, this was Johnson's movie. That's why they gave him a 3 picture deal based off what they saw. Hamill has said it's Johnson's film/vision, too.

I wonder whose dick he sucked, then?
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: Von Doom on December 17, 2017, 10:49:49 PM
QUESTION

If Rey’s parents were nobodies who lived and died on Jakku as drunks, then how come we see them flying away in a ship in TFA’s Force vision? Not everyone owns a ship in Star Wars. They do cost money, and it seems like selling your child into slavery for booze money is pretty extreme... especially when you have a ship.

I just assumed that was ignored like any other plot thread created in TFA. Gotta "subvert them expectations" and "bring a fresh new take" to the series. Or something.

Quick question - Is there any real reason TFO's weapons should have been less effective at long range than up close? And explosive payload doesn't change if you fire it 100 or 10,000 miles, and if those are just some kind of coherent light or even plasma weapons, I don't know if they'd scatter enough to really change much over that short of a distance. Maybe if they were firing at an extreme distance or if there was a lot of intervening debris. I dunno. Just seemed like a dumb plot contrivance.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: AP on December 17, 2017, 10:53:03 PM
QUESTION

If Rey’s parents were nobodies who lived and died on Jakku as drunks, then how come we see them flying away in a ship in TFA’s Force vision? Not everyone owns a ship in Star Wars. They do cost money, and it seems like selling your child into slavery for booze money is pretty extreme... especially when you have a ship.

I just assumed that was ignored like any other plot thread created in TFA. Gotta "subvert them expectations" and "bring a fresh new take" to the series. Or something.

Quick question - Is there any real reason TFO's weapons should have been less effective at long range than up close? And explosive payload doesn't change if you fire it 100 or 10,000 miles, and if those are just some kind of coherent light or even plasma weapons, I don't know if they'd scatter enough to really change much over that short of a distance. Maybe if they were firing at an extreme distance or if there was a lot of intervening debris. I dunno. Just seemed like a dumb plot contrivance.

Sci-Fi weapons.  Sci-Fi rules.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: Master on December 18, 2017, 01:22:24 AM
Yeah, welcome to Star Wars. Even Lucas had these ships engaging at ridiculously close ranges all the time.

But here’s the dumber thing: if the cruiser was actually FASTER, it would have kept gradually getting further away. Instead, the cruiser seemed to just pull to the edge of the First Order’s range and then match their speed, keeping a consistent distance the entire time.

This movie was overal REALLY good with Luke, Rey, and Ren’s story. The concept of the Poe/Finn/Rose story was ok and was didn’t have a solid execution. So in a way, this movie matched the heights of the OT and the head-scratching idiocy of the prequels with its two story lines. The entire cruiser chase was just poorly thought out past the basics.

Here’s another bad one: Finn and Rose are seconds from being executed. Phasma and dozens of troops are all around them. Hyperspace crash! Finn wakes up with Rose. Ok, ok... we can chalk their survival to amazing luck, which is typical of epic movies like this. I guess them being on the ground allowed them to survive while debris killed everyone standing? Oh wait. Here come Phasma and a bunch of fresh troopers from a smoking doorway? They all look unscathed. Why the fuck did Phasma leave and come back? Are those the same troopers from before? WTF? Pure prequel-level idiocy and just bad movie-making.

It’s fine that the crash saves Finn and Rose. But the aftermath execution is shit. Just have Phasma and a few troops survive RIGHT THERE. Having them disappear and reappear unscathed further away makes no damn sense.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: AP on December 18, 2017, 01:42:19 AM
I thought they emerged form the smoke.  I figured they were knocked across the room or whatever and marched back to Finn and Rose.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: Master on December 18, 2017, 09:24:54 AM
My issue is the presentation of the scene. There are one or two dead troopers on the ground. Rose looks a bit smoke-stained and Finn was TKO’d.

Phasma and those other troops aren’t shown injured or even scuffed up. They just all appear from a distance marching in formation, looking fresh as daisies. It looks less they were tossed around by an explosion and more like they were all teleported gently across the hangar... in the exact same spot... minus the one or two guys who got killed.

Would’ve been better to just have everyone get tossed around the room and have troopers coming from various positions.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: AP on December 18, 2017, 04:52:18 PM
True.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: Kallor on December 20, 2017, 01:02:05 PM
There's not a lot of discussion about this movie here compared to TFA and Rogue One.  Have people not seen it yet, or have the events of the film killed interest?
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: Gree on December 20, 2017, 01:33:19 PM
I thought it was worse. He murdered story lines, sliced through interesting story and background that was built up prior and put in stupid humor
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: 80sBaby on December 20, 2017, 01:37:47 PM
People either love this film or they hate it. There's no middle ground.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: AP on December 20, 2017, 04:50:04 PM
People either love this film or they hate it. There's no middle ground.

I don’t love it.  I am just okay with it.  I think it’s partially because I hate Force Awakens so much.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: Uhtceare on December 20, 2017, 08:21:33 PM
The Force Awakens bored me. This didn't bore me, but it wasn't anything special. A decent movie that I would already have forgotten if it didn't have the Star Wars label.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: NeoGreenLantern on December 20, 2017, 08:39:05 PM
I thought 60% was great, 20% was good, and 20% was meh.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: Kallor on December 20, 2017, 09:00:25 PM
I thought 60% was great, 20% was good, and 20% was meh.

Would you be willing to elaborate on some examples of the 3 categories?  If not, no worries, I'm just curious how people here responded to certain things.  I've seen a lot of takes online but mostly from very general audiences or very extreme Star Wars fans.

Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: Kallor on December 20, 2017, 09:06:16 PM
What did people think of the following controversial things, for example:

-The rebel ship ramming into the First Order at lightspeed

-Luke's character arc

-The new force stuff like projections, force ghosts affecting the material world, Leia in space (I don't think this is new but it's being treated that way), etc

-Rey's parentage

-How the movie leaves things at the end going into IX
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: NeoGreenLantern on December 20, 2017, 09:50:08 PM
I thought 60% was great, 20% was good, and 20% was meh.

Would you be willing to elaborate on some examples of the 3 categories?  If not, no worries, I'm just curious how people here responded to certain things.  I've seen a lot of takes online but mostly from very general audiences or very extreme Star Wars fans.

Great:
Pretty much all the action sequences. Poe taking out the cannons, Kylo and Ren vs the Guards. Kylo vs Luke
The Good Guys plans going tits up. Sometimes the good guys rely on luck too much.
The Kylo/Rey relationship
Luke/Rey relationship
Luke's uberpowerful force projection
Ghost Yoda showing up and going "fuck that tree"

Good:
The new alien creatures and the weird shit like Luke milking that alien sea cow thing. OG Star Wars was loaded with weird shit.
Leia getting a force moment.
The new characters. I'm probably the odd man out on this but I liked Lieutenant Connix, Rose, and DJ.
No real original trilogy rehashing.
Finn vs Phasma. I liked it but it should have been longer

Meh:
Holdo. She redeemed herself with her ramming speed attack at the end but for most of the movie I just couldn't stand her.I probably would have liked her more if she was an established character.
Snoke CGI when he first showed up. Something was really off about it.
Rey's parents being nobodies. I know people will complain it makes the universe "small" giving her some special parents but I like that sort of thing.
Snoke being reduced to a plot device
Phasma getting barely any screen time.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: AP on December 20, 2017, 10:10:00 PM
What did people think of the following controversial things, for example:

-The rebel ship ramming into the First Order at lightspeed

It looked amazing.  I've seen possible explanations for how that worked, but I'm not super worried about it.

Quote
-Luke's character arc

At least he went out better than Han.  Besides, he will obviously be in the next movie as a Force ghost.

Quote
-The new force stuff like projections, force ghosts affecting the material world, Leia in space (I don't think this is new but it's being treated that way), etc

Projections existed in the EU, so whatever.  In Return of the Jedi, Obi-Wan sat down on a stone.  It wasn't on the level of Yoda calling down lightning, but it's Yoda, so whatever.  As for survivong in space, scientists are still up in the air regarding how long it would take someone to die in space.  Leia was out there for what, ten seconds?  And even then, she nearly died from it.

Quote
-Rey's parentage

I don't care but then, I don't find Rey very interesting.

Quote
-How the movie leaves things at the end going into IX

I'm curious to know what they will do for Leia.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: NeoGreenLantern on December 20, 2017, 10:34:32 PM
Whats the problem with the FTL suicide attack?
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: -K-M- on December 20, 2017, 10:55:20 PM
Saw it and really didn't like it

Also are we ever going to get the Knights of Ren???? THAT WAS IT FOR R2???? The dark side cave was pretty pointless
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: Master on December 20, 2017, 11:19:36 PM
Whats the problem with the FTL suicide attack?

A complaint I’ve heard is “why don’t both sides do this all the time!?”

Eh. Prohibition on Suicide kamikaze type attacks could be a cultural thing... or maybe a despicable war crime type thing. Or maybe just super risky to pull off?

The mechanics of it are obviously complicated too. Han jumped to hyperspace inside a ship, so hyperspace has some separation from real space. Yet we also know the ships need to calculate trips to avoid dropping into planets or stars. So did she fudge the settings to get a massive speed boost while still interacting with real space? Or did she do a precise calculation to come out of a jump right in the middle of that ship?

In any case, I thought it was cool. We don’t understand half of the loopy physics in Star Wars anyway, so just add this to the pile.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: Master on December 20, 2017, 11:22:40 PM
Also, I rate this above all the prequels but below everything else in the series.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: -K-M- on December 21, 2017, 09:15:54 AM
Just thought of something else that irked me. How does one drop a large amount of bombs using gravity....in space???

Edit:
Apparently it’s explained in the books. The rails “magnetically push” the bombs rather then use gravity 

(https://pp.userapi.com/c841429/v841429484/4838b/2QSFsgFvJmk.jpg)
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: Master on December 21, 2017, 10:45:15 AM
The poor part of that scene was all of the bombers flying so close to each other, resulting in the loss of one bomber taking out most of the rest. And if one bomber could take out the entire dreadnaught, why is the procedure for every bomber to activate their bombs at once?

Johnson and the script writers for this one just weren’t as good at nailing the military action as the prior movies, making the Resistance and First Order look pretty incompetent in a fight (beyond the intentional storylines about suicide alone heroic plans needing to be limited rather than the go-to).

Compare this to Rogue One where the stakes were high and the rebels at a disadvantage while still showing both sides as competent in battle. Hell, even the Lucas prequels get the military fighting hits mostly right. Mostly.

I think if the ship battles in TLJ were completely reworked (including how the chase panned out), the movie would be waaaaaaaay better (even with the few times the humor went too far and the Codebreaker storyline).
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: -K-M- on December 21, 2017, 04:12:40 PM
Well yeah. Like what did the first order chase the resistance? Why not call in more ships and cut them off? Nope...let’s keep shooting at them for 18 hours. This is a one way space lane
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: Bran Mak Morn on December 21, 2017, 06:30:11 PM
Haven't seen this yet...sounds like a cringe fest best for dvd release.

Apparently a lot of the new characters have their backgrounds in the novels.

Dern's character is supposedly Leia's best friend growing up....



Soooo does TLJ explain how Phasma survives TFA?
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: Master on December 21, 2017, 06:39:54 PM
Well yeah. Like what did the first order chase the resistance? Why not call in more ships and cut them off? Nope...let’s keep shooting at them for 18 hours. This is a one way space lane
Or just scramble a hundred TIE fighters. Each Star Destroyer seems to have dozens. In a numbers game, the First Order can afford to lose 50 TIEs if it means destroying the last few Resistance leaders.

Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: Master on December 21, 2017, 06:42:24 PM
Haven't seen this yet...sounds like a cringe fest best for dvd release.

Apparently a lot of the new characters have their backgrounds in the novels.

Dern's character is supposedly Leia's best friend growing up....



Soooo does TLJ explain how Phasma survives TFA?

The background of Rose and Holdo are irrelevant. Resistance fighter and Resistance second-in-command are all you need to know.

But yeah... no explanation for Phasma.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: therock on December 21, 2017, 06:50:00 PM
Ok I liked it

some fantasic scenes

But they CLEALRY reverse course from force awakens..or clearly didn't have shit plan out. It seem to be a lot of what they consider course corrections
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: AP on December 21, 2017, 07:41:27 PM
Ok I liked it

some fantasic scenes

But they CLEALRY reverse course from force awakens..or clearly didn't have shit plan out. It seem to be a lot of what they consider course corrections

Disney and Kathleen Kennedy are very strict about their directors going in their own direction so I can only assume they had these ideas all along.  Certainly, JJ Abrams is notorious for setting up mysteries with no follow through so I doubt he ever had a vision for future films even if they let him do his own thing.

This sequel trilogy is fucked up.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: nu-safado on December 21, 2017, 10:04:32 PM
The film was good in the same sense that it was a re imagining but it really did a horrible disservice to Luke Skywalker and fucked the franchise.

Rian Johnson absolutely ruined the character of Luke Skywalker and then didn't give him his Darth Vader Rogue One moment. Beyond that, Luke went so against character that it felt almost offensive. Luke's great power feat is considerably impressive, but we never get to see a live Luke come back to the good fight, redeem himself and do what we know Luke Skywalker can do. I enjoyed the self-sacrifice moment but compared to what Luke could and should have been after fans have waited decades to see him in action was criminal

This is the same Luke Skywalker; who when confronted with the truth about who his father was, the galactic despot who committed atrocity after atrocity, refused a chance to rule the galaxy by his fathers side and jumped to what he thought was his death in Bespin. Even after ha ving his hand cut off b his father he still felt conflict in him and risked his life against vader and Palpatine, clearly understanding that he would only live if he redeemed his father; he knew he stood little chance against either one of them alone let alone both. Through sheer faith in himself and his father he was proven right and we have return of the jedi

Luke Skywalker is the redeeming, pure soul who never ever quits.

Rian Johnson declared that his story arc ended in ROTJ and said the new trilogy was about the new characters.

So in short, he abused Luke Skywalker by making him the one thing that goes against his nature; he turns Luke into a quitter who after redeeming Darth Vader, has one moment of weakness with his nephew, faces an obstacle,and decides to die a cowards death alone while knowing full well that the entire galaxy, including his friends and sister, need him.

That's unforgivable and frankly, short-sighted elseworlds type writing and a poor attempt to take an iconic  larger-than-life hero and make him "relatable" by stripping away everything that makes him a hero.

Furthermore, the trilogy isn't about the new characters. Daisy Ridely is on record as saying that she'll be done with the trilogy after the next film, which is worrying if you've just killed all the trilogy characters and have no one to replace them with.

Finn's arc was a huge disservice to the character.In TFA, he's a bad ass stormtrooper who is willing to fight Kylo Ren: AKA Darth Vader if he hadn't been injured on Mustafar, in a lightsaber battle and takes his wounds like a man before dropping.

Then the film turns around and starts joking about how he was the stormtrooper janitor and the next film has him as the plucky comic relief as much as the hero who is finding himself after fearing the first order and now fighting it. So, if Star Wars is trying to represent a little bit of everyone: Asian Rose, Latino Benicio Del Toro, strong female character  what do we get with our one black character?

A bad ass storm trooper who is deadly anywhere he goes? We get a lot of janitor jokes.

To be fair, he has a lot of heroic moments but the scenes feel uninteresting to me. Worse still, he fights Captain Phasma and comes full circle from deserter to willing to sacrifice his life against his former boss in a battle to the death, so where does he go from here?

Rey doesn't get nearly the screen time she deserved so how does the Jedi Order continue. Her scenes with Kylo were phenomenal, then she disappears and has one cool power feat before disappearing.

This film would have been epic if it was a stand-alone elseworlds. It did so much to shatter the mythos of Star Wars and bring it back to Disney basics: simple story, child-friendly, easy on lore but heavy on set-pieces, that it was clearly an attempt to simplify the film away from what hard core Star wars fans wanted and Disneyfy the film for general audiences

If I'd just wlaked into the film and this was the sequel to a set up like TFA I would have loved it. In certain parts I really did love the film, Yoda's 3 minutes in the film were almost enough to make up for every mistake. Kylo Ren has captured my attention as a villain, Poe is awesome, Rey is always compelling and there is plenty to love. I just felt so bad for Mark Hamill and the character that I'll need a second viewing to really see if it sits better with me




Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: -K-M- on December 21, 2017, 10:53:12 PM
Another thing I just thought of but does luke have teleportation powers too? As how did he give Leia the falcon dice?
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: AP on December 21, 2017, 11:13:24 PM
Another thing I just thought of but does luke have teleportation powers too? As how did he give Leia the falcon dice?

He didn’t.  They weren’t real.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: Master on December 22, 2017, 12:31:55 AM
Quick thing to remember is that JJ is the one who created the “Luke in exile” nonsense. I think Johnson did the best he could explaining why the ever hopeful Luke would lose hope.

The idea being that Luke was a great hero... a legend... but when the war was over, he found that setting up shop as the head of the new Jedi Order was not a simple task. Him being a legend apparently fed into personal arrogance thinking that he could “save” his nephew. And by the time he finally realized his failure, it was too late... and Kylo turned on him, ruining everything. That’s a really hard loss. Does it fully explain Luke giving up? No, but blame that more on JJ... there’s no perfect reason to explain. Johnson did pretty well though.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: Mightily Oats on December 22, 2017, 12:34:36 AM
Abrams is a sack of shit
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: AP on December 22, 2017, 12:48:30 AM
Quick thing to remember is that JJ is the one who created the “Luke in exile” nonsense. I think Johnson did the best he could explaining why the ever hopeful Luke would lose hope.

The idea being that Luke was a great hero... a legend... but when the war was over, he found that setting up shop as the head of the new Jedi Order was not a simple task. Him being a legend apparently fed into personal arrogance thinking that he could “save” his nephew. And by the time he finally realized his failure, it was too late... and Kylo turned on him, ruining everything. That’s a really hard loss. Does it fully explain Luke giving up? No, but blame that more on JJ... there’s no perfect reason to explain. Johnson did pretty well though.

George Lucas' idea for Episode 7 also started with Luke having exiled himself.

Star Wars people really love themselves some exiled old Luke.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: MPagar on December 22, 2017, 01:17:20 AM
Apparently a lot of the new characters have their backgrounds in the novels.

Dern's character is supposedly Leia's best friend growing up....



Soooo does TLJ explain how Phasma survives TFA?

Much like needing the books to explain the new guys, Phasma had her own mini that showed her part of the tale.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: Kallor on December 22, 2017, 01:25:12 AM
Quick thing to remember is that JJ is the one who created the “Luke in exile” nonsense. I think Johnson did the best he could explaining why the ever hopeful Luke would lose hope.

I was mostly okay with it when the prevailing theory was that Luke's failure with Kylo Ren caused the "death" of his daughter.  As it turned out in TLJ, I don't think enough happened to justify the level of withdrawal and surrender he had in regards to both the galaxy and his family. 

Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: Kallor on December 22, 2017, 01:33:51 AM
Thinking about this movie, and seeing the many thinkpieces across the net about subverting expectations, I'm wondering how you guys feel about this kind of thing.  Expectations like Luke being involved and powerful, Rey's parents, whatever.

How does one decide whether something is predictable because it's tired, or because it makes sense for the existing story? How important is being surprised to a tale well told? 
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: Von Doom on December 22, 2017, 03:02:25 AM
Thinking about this movie, and seeing the many thinkpieces across the net about subverting expectations, I'm wondering how you guys feel about this kind of thing.  Expectations like Luke being involved and powerful, Rey's parents, whatever.

How does one decide whether something is predictable because it's tired, or because it makes sense for the existing story? How important is being surprised to a tale well told?

Taking the story in a direction that goes against the expected can be a very powerful storytelling device, but it needs to be done in a way that makes sense. The audience needs to say, "I didn't expect that, but I get it." I think, on one level, this was done well with Rey's parents. We're accustomed to attributing a parental mystery with some kind of important lineage. Turning things around and saying Rey's parents were no one special is actually a good idea, especially if you want to stress that anyone can become a hero. Of course, most expected the "orphan pauper is actually royalty" storyline, because of Rey's inexplicable power. Here's were the subversion doesn't work as well, because it directly contradicts previous story.

This contradiction is also, at the moment anyway, present in Snoke's history. Like mentioned above, the Emperor's appearance and lack of story isn't so bad in the OT, because there's no story that came before it. Your dropped into the middle of a civil war and told "This is the bad guy in charge." Snoke's existence is a problem, because seems to contradict what we've seen. Maybe we'll get more story at some other point in time that explains where he's from, what he's been doing, and how he ended up in charge of the Empire's remnants, but for now his inclusion and death just seem like a weak plot contrivance.

Safado nicely enumerated the problems with Luke's "subversion." And while it's my least favorite departure from prior story, I will say that in this case, it wasn't a loved one's fall that his unbridled optimism was up against. It was his own spectacular failure. If he'd left for a bit, recollected himself, and returned, I could have gotten behind that story. As is - yuck.

But the biggest problem with this style of storytelling, is that it falls to almost Shyamalanian levels of relying on device over story. The "let's just try to do the opposite" approach is what seems to have led to the worst part of the new movies: The Alliance formed a new government; then the Empire's remnants regather and reassert themselves as the main power in the galaxy all during the time between movies. This was done just so we could be rooting for a rebellion again and allow the production agency to tell the same story in a different way. So for any involved in these movies to talk about "fresh new takes" or whatever is just stupid.

These movies have been a subversion of expectations in the same way that you might hope that reheated leftovers will be just as good as the night before. They're not. They never are. You should have just made something new.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: Mightily Oats on December 22, 2017, 05:56:45 AM
People who think they're creative want to recapture the feel and impact of Empire

That's just not the kind of shit you can do anymore. That happens once.

JJ Abrams is a master at homogenizing that feeling without every actually achieving it

Focus should always be on an internal consistency. In quality and continuity, because that feeds and enhances quality

Star Wars is shallow shit and always has been

But shallow doesn't mean bad

Die Hard is shallow

The first Godfather is shallow

Jaws is shallow

Jurassic Park is shallow

Inception is shallow
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: Master on December 22, 2017, 06:43:37 AM
Inception is less shallow than rest of your examples, but yes. A movie doesn’t have to be ultra complex to be spectacular blockbuster material.

Subverting expectations can be a good thing, as some of us have said already, but doing it too many times starts to feel like “doing it purely for the sake of doing it”. How can we feel more complex? MORE TWISTS!

Granted, let’s imagine Johnson did TFA. I don’t see him ever setting up Rey’s parents as a big mystery. I don’t see him choosing another Death Star-like super weapon to attack. Or setting up Snoke as super mysterious (would likely just give Snoke some backstory or kill him off in movie 1, making it clear he was never important).

But instead, he had to follow up JJ. JJ who can really execute a simple story well but who loves setting up mysteries... often with no plan on how to resolve them. So here comes Johnson who very clearly did not care for those mysteries and had to spend time resolving them (Luke), resolving by subverting expectations (Rey), or subverting by ignoring them (Snoke).

I still enjoyed this movie a lot, but there are problems that come with having a director with a less conventional style following the set up established by JJ “pure convention sprinkled with mystery” Abrams.

I think the Rogue One director would have been a better fit here. He could have given us strong performances, better structure for the military action, and likely given us something slightly less conventional while still resolving JJ’s mysteries (or more likely just feeding them and leaving them for resolution in IX). It would have been safer and simpler, but that’s kind of what you need after JJ. Someone who will make a few changes rather than someone going for a grandslam in twists.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: Ditto on December 22, 2017, 06:44:05 AM
Quick thing to remember is that JJ is the one who created the “Luke in exile” nonsense. I think Johnson did the best he could explaining why the ever hopeful Luke would lose hope.

I was mostly okay with it when the prevailing theory was that Luke's failure with Kylo Ren caused the "death" of his daughter.  As it turned out in TLJ, I don't think enough happened to justify the level of withdrawal and surrender he had in regards to both the galaxy and his family.

I’d think being partially responsible for creating the new Darth Vader from your nephew/ the son of the two people closest to you would be pretty substantial in regards to not wanting to face those people again.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: Master on December 22, 2017, 06:52:27 AM
Also Lucas himself never gave us a good explanation for Yoda going into exile. In the OT, we assume there must be a good reason for this Jedi master to hide from the Empire.

But then the PT shows us Yoda was THE master. The most powerful Jedi in the galaxy. And he could still fight!!! His age was a non-factor. He can do flips and absorb lightning with his bare hands! Oh well... maybe Ep III will show the Emperor is way better, so Yoda never had a chance? NOPE! They are peers in power!

Hell, all of Jedi arent even dead yet. Obi and Yoda screw with the distress beacon to warn others to stay away. But Yoda immieditately goes into hiding rather than rallying the Jedi... he leaves them all to be JJ ted and slain by Vader.

It’s really hard to paint a picture of wise battle monk bastions of morality... and then have them hide away in exile when the going gets tough. JJ’s decision to mimic Lucas’ poor decision is the problem. I do not blame Johnson.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: Mightily Oats on December 22, 2017, 06:52:41 AM
I'll be seeing this in 14 hours

Review forthcoming

Have not seen Rogue One, cared not at all for Force Awakens
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: Commander on December 22, 2017, 09:31:19 AM
Good popcorn fest film but didn't like how Snoke kicked the bucket. Luke Force use was amazing though for a guy who stopped using The Force for a long time. Remote physical manifestation across space.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: Mightily Oats on December 22, 2017, 11:32:34 PM
Way the fuck better than Force Awakens

Actually felt like a sequel

Actually did its own shit

Had some great moments, and some niggling bullshit obviously, but overall much better
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: Master on December 23, 2017, 01:43:11 PM
Way the fuck better than Force Awakens

Actually felt like a sequel

Actually did its own shit

Had some great moments, and some niggling bullshit obviously, but overall much better

I feel like the poor execution of the chase and  storyline keeps it below TFA, even though the high points of TLJ are better. I plan to watch TLJ a second time in theaters which may change my opinion (since I’ve seen TFA about 10 Times).
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: Master on December 23, 2017, 01:46:29 PM
And glad you liked it. I feel like half of the weak points are Johnson trying to resolve shit Abrams unnecessarily introduced. And with Luke’s exile reason, he did about as well as one could hope under the circumstances.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: therock on December 23, 2017, 02:52:47 PM
quesiton is did JJ have an explantion

or was the explantion dumb where they ignored it

or was this the explanation
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: Kallor on December 23, 2017, 02:54:07 PM
And glad you liked it. I feel like half of the weak points are Johnson trying to resolve shit Abrams unnecessarily introduced.

Agreed that these faults would belong mostly to Abrams, though part of crafting a (good) installment in a shared story does include dealing with what came before in good faith. 

Quote
And with Luke’s exile reason, he did about as well as one could hope under the circumstances.

I don't agree here, but to each their own.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: Master on December 23, 2017, 03:14:15 PM
And glad you liked it. I feel like half of the weak points are Johnson trying to resolve shit Abrams unnecessarily introduced.

Agreed that these faults would belong mostly to Abrams, though part of crafting a (good) installment in a shared story does include dealing with what came before in good faith. 

Quote
And with Luke’s exile reason, he did about as well as one could hope under the circumstances.

I don't agree here, but to each their own.

The only explanation for Luke’s exile that would be better (that I can think of) would be having Snoke be the “Force vampire” originally theorized. Luke HAD to leave to avoid making Smoke stronger.

But that’s better for a story where Luke and Snoke are main characters. You focus on their conflict and resolve it with them. And in that situation, I don’t see how Rey could be used to satisfactorily resolve the very-Luke-centered problem.

For being a side story in a new trilogy with new main characters, I found the Luke story to be fine. If anything, I want to know more about those years leading up to the fall out with Ben Solo. That sounds like an interesting story with Snoke’s rise to power and Luke’s struggles being a Jedi leader while remaining optimistic right up until the tragic failure.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: Kallor on December 23, 2017, 03:36:02 PM
quesiton is did JJ have an explantion

or was the explantion dumb where they ignored it

or was this the explanation

JJ Abrams is annoying as fuck but tends to know the tipping point for this kind of thing, and Lucasfilm/Disney are heavily involved. Lost the TV series is what people think of, but he had nothing to do with the show beyond pilot concept.  Lost is Damon Lindeloff.   

Abrams signature is to leave a mysterious element (often a literal unopened box) in his stuff, he believes leaving something for people to discuss enhances the experience, but they're usually smaller things.  A tertiary character in a college drama who keeps a box under their bed they tell no one to look in, a mission objective box that secret agent Tom Cruise has to grab for the government before the bad guy does, etc.  He answers bigger mysteries (Fringe, Alias), though opinion is naturally mixed on whether they deliver (Alias).

All of which is to say that he probably had an answer (or intended to create an answer) for most of these things because they were character related rather than plot objects being sought.



Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: Kallor on December 23, 2017, 03:53:08 PM
The only explanation for Luke’s exile that would be better (that I can think of)

TFA gave a very rough sketch of a character and situation for Luke, surely you're not trying to say Rian Johnson was trapped between force vampire exile and what we got.  There was room for a writer to craft all kinds of backstory, it's done all the time with far more restrictive circumstances than "X has disappeared after vague tragedy."

Quote
If anything, I want to know more about those years leading up to the fall out with Ben Solo. That sounds like an interesting story with Snoke’s rise to power and Luke’s struggles being a Jedi leader while remaining optimistic right up until the tragic failure.

I mean...yeah. 
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: Mightily Oats on December 23, 2017, 04:38:05 PM
But it's not Luke's story anymore. Hamill even said that, and I really liked that the buck was passed

Even if he almost has to Force ghost his way into the next one

Interesting thought, probably unintentional:
In the Clone Wars series, there was that Force planet with the Father, representing Balance, and his two children

The Light side was a Woman. Rey is a woman
The Dark side was a man. Kylo is a man

I don't remember the woman's character, but Kylo really comes off like the Dark side guy, and it would be really neat if Luke ascended to the Balance position, as the Father wanted Anakin to do
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: -K-M- on December 23, 2017, 04:48:56 PM
Woman gave her life to bring back Ashoka from the dead. Then her brother became more powerful
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: Kallor on December 23, 2017, 04:49:36 PM
But it's not Luke's story anymore.

A better crafted backstory for Luke doesn't make it *his* story any more than the story we got does.  Luke's backstory serves Kylo as well, they're linked, and the setup was there to serve Rey's character as well.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: Mightily Oats on December 23, 2017, 06:16:07 PM
But it's not Luke's story anymore.

A better crafted backstory for Luke doesn't make it *his* story any more than the story we got does.  Luke's backstory serves Kylo as well, they're linked, and the setup was there to serve Rey's character as well.
Better crafted?

You mean you want more?
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: Kallor on December 23, 2017, 07:02:57 PM
But it's not Luke's story anymore.

A better crafted backstory for Luke doesn't make it *his* story any more than the story we got does.  Luke's backstory serves Kylo as well, they're linked, and the setup was there to serve Rey's character as well.
Better crafted?

You mean you want more?

More what?  Not more screen time, we see Luke a lot in this movie.  A different story would fundamentally change what we see during that screen time, but it wouldn't have to be longer.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: Mightily Oats on December 23, 2017, 07:42:13 PM
So you wanted different than his nephew failing him?
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: Master on December 23, 2017, 08:32:31 PM
Gotta love that Yoda moment too. Bonding further over their failures, essentially. Yoda being a wise rascal while getting a strong point across. A return of OT Yoda compared to the more reserved PT Yoda.

And I also get the suggestion that Luke hasn’t seen Yoda in all these years because he shit himself off from the Force. Rey comes in and shows him a bit of that hopeful determination... makes him yearn for more... and he gets a reactionary thought to just burn down the tree/books. He’s too conflicted to keep himself shutoff from the Force, and that’s when Yoda reaches out to him.

And then Yoda pulls down a lightning bolt, making fanboys jizz their pants.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: Kallor on December 23, 2017, 09:26:15 PM
So you wanted different than his nephew failing him?

I didn't want a set thing, understand.  The discussion I was having is twofold: 1) Luke's story didn't work for me (subjective) and 2) whether Rian Johnson had no real options thanks to Abrams' setup (objectively wrong imo). 

So whether it's more than his nephew failing him, or a better presentation on the same basic concept, or anything else really, I would be looking for something that sold me better on why he does the things that he does. 
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: Mightily Oats on December 23, 2017, 10:03:37 PM
So you wanted different than his nephew failing him?

I didn't want a set thing, understand.  The discussion I was having is twofold: 1) Luke's story didn't work for me (subjective) and 2) whether Rian Johnson had no real options thanks to Abrams' setup (objectively wrong imo). 

So whether it's more than his nephew failing him, or a better presentation on the same basic concept, or anything else really, I would be looking for something that sold me better on why he does the things that he does.
okay

It worked for me

I also liked seeing Yoda
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: Kallor on December 23, 2017, 10:27:23 PM
So you wanted different than his nephew failing him?

I didn't want a set thing, understand.  The discussion I was having is twofold: 1) Luke's story didn't work for me (subjective) and 2) whether Rian Johnson had no real options thanks to Abrams' setup (objectively wrong imo). 

So whether it's more than his nephew failing him, or a better presentation on the same basic concept, or anything else really, I would be looking for something that sold me better on why he does the things that he does.
okay

It worked for me

I also liked seeing Yoda

Yeah, I liked seeing Yoda.  I didn't hate the movie, either, that can often get lost in an "all or nothing" feeling during these discussions.   
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: Mightily Oats on December 23, 2017, 10:30:05 PM
Story of my life

But we agree it kicks the shit out of the re-hashed lense flare?
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: Kallor on December 23, 2017, 10:32:03 PM
Story of my life

But we agree it kicks the shit out of the re-hashed lense flare?

Definitely.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: Commander on December 23, 2017, 10:33:20 PM
The only thing I didn't fully like is we never knew who the hell Snoke was. Is he some Sith Lord who grabbed the opportunity during a power vacuum. Where were all the other Sith Lords?
Now a Sith apprentice is the 'emperor' to-be
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: Mightily Oats on December 23, 2017, 10:38:55 PM
Not really important, tbh

But there's comics and books and merchandise to fill in the gaps if they want to
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: Mightily Oats on December 23, 2017, 10:40:06 PM
Woman gave her life to bring back Ashoka from the dead. Then her brother became more powerful
Yeah and Anakin ended up killing both or something?

I know he did some nutty, impossible feat
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: Mightily Oats on December 23, 2017, 10:42:09 PM
Oh, and Luke was absolutely more powerful than Ren or Rey,  and I mean just in raw terms

But Ren and Rey are still stupidly powerful

Yoda didn't stop being a beast because Anakin entered the scene

The top of the mountain is still occupied by Luke and Anakin

Which is good
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: Commander on December 23, 2017, 10:48:24 PM
Incredibly Adam Driver was praised by the critics at RT being able to depict a conflicted character as opposed to Hyden failing miserably on a rage quitting Anakin.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: Kallor on December 23, 2017, 10:52:55 PM
Incredibly Adam Driver was praised by the critics at RT being able to depict a conflicted character as opposed to Hyden failing miserably on a rage quitting Anakin.

I'm not sure I'm following, are you disagreeing that Adam Driver depicts a conflicted character better than Hayden Christensen? 
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: Commander on December 24, 2017, 12:36:06 AM
Au contraire. I enjoyed his performance and had me second guessing how he will work or not work when Rey was around. I couldn't agree more on critics calling it The Empire Strikes back of the new series.
Looks like with them being able to do Sense8 even with Snoke dead means both will likely be Force masters like we never saw before. I can only hope though.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: AP on December 24, 2017, 01:20:09 AM
Adam Driver is a better actor than Hayden Christenson but I feel like Anakin is still more of a badass than Kylo.  Somehow, Kylo seemed to outwhine both Luke and Anakin.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: Commander on December 24, 2017, 01:34:00 AM
Come to think of it. All 3 sets have whiners on them. Keeping it consistent. It ain't Star Wars if there is no whiner.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: Kallor on December 24, 2017, 01:41:11 AM
Adam Driver is a better actor than Hayden Christenson but I feel like Anakin is still more of a badass than Kylo.  Somehow, Kylo seemed to outwhine both Luke and Anakin.

Oh I agree completely, and the Clone Wars cartoon helps because it let's us see the character as he could have been with a competent actor.  As you say, I was speaking to Adam Driver being a better actor than Hayden Christensen.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: Mightily Oats on December 24, 2017, 01:49:37 AM
Oh yeah Adam Driver killed it in this movie
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: Thanos6 on December 24, 2017, 05:40:31 AM
The hyperspace ramming scene was superb. Not just the movie but the whole theater was silent, aside from one quiet "oh my God."

Heard rumors that Lando was originally supposed to be the master codebreaker, the one that Finn and Rose just end up missing, but they decided he deserved more than just a cameo. I expect to see him in a bigger role in IX.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: AP on December 24, 2017, 07:10:21 AM
The hyperspace ramming scene was superb. Not just the movie but the whole theater was silent, aside from one quiet "oh my God."

Heard rumors that Lando was originally supposed to be the master codebreaker, the one that Finn and Rose just end up missing, but they decided he deserved more than just a cameo. I expect to see him in a bigger role in IX.

Considering they can't have Leia or Han in the next movie, they'll have to bring in Lando to connect it to the originals.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: Commander on December 24, 2017, 02:28:04 PM
Still only on its 11th day it already has reached 745M in BO receipts. Looks like a + word of mouth made this hot.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: XerxesTWD on December 24, 2017, 06:11:03 PM
The hyperspace ramming scene was superb. Not just the movie but the whole theater was silent, aside from one quiet "oh my God."

Heard rumors that Lando was originally supposed to be the master codebreaker, the one that Finn and Rose just end up missing, but they decided he deserved more than just a cameo. I expect to see him in a bigger role in IX.
Johnson said the plan specifically had to fail and he didn't want to waste bringing back Lando on a failed plan.


The vibe was definitely "Oh shit, this is Lando."
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: Thanos6 on December 25, 2017, 12:13:48 PM
The hyperspace ramming scene was superb. Not just the movie but the whole theater was silent, aside from one quiet "oh my God."

Heard rumors that Lando was originally supposed to be the master codebreaker, the one that Finn and Rose just end up missing, but they decided he deserved more than just a cameo. I expect to see him in a bigger role in IX.
Johnson said the plan specifically had to fail and he didn't want to waste bringing back Lando on a failed plan.


The vibe was definitely "Oh shit, this is Lando."

Yeah, especially when they mentioned he hung out at a high-stakes casino.

One of my main gripes with the film is that it's too long; like Return Of The King, you keep thinking it's about to end but it just keeps on going. I think that after the destruction of Snoke's flagship and everything that happened there, that would have been a good time to wrap it up.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: Master on December 27, 2017, 02:21:10 PM
Here is another glaring weakness in the whole cruiser chase situation.

Poe by the end was supposed to learn a lesson... ultra risky “heroic” missions need to be the last resort. One example followed his Pyrrhic victory against the dreadnaught where he gets chewed out and demoted for losing so many people to take it out.

But as Poe said, the ship is a fleet killer. Still, Leia and the command wanted to flee rather than attack it.

Which would have failed miserably due to hyperspace tracking. If Poe had listened to them, the dreadnaught would have followed them through hyperspace... along with Snoke’s command ship and the extra star destroyers. The dreadnaught would have then one-shot each cruiser and the frigate, ending the Resistance in minutes.

It seems pretty clear that the writers didn’t catch this issue with their moral/lesson.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: Commander on December 28, 2017, 06:27:32 AM
Umm... you wanted a scene where they congratulate Poe for saving the rest of the rebels & Gen Organa saying he was right all along?
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: Master on December 28, 2017, 05:29:36 PM
Umm... you wanted a scene where they congratulate Poe for saving the rest of the rebels & Gen Organa saying he was right all along?

Once they realized there was hyperspace tracking and that Poe’s decision was actually correct? Yeah. They should’ve acknowledged he made the right call and not treated him like a reckless hotshot. When you only have 150-ish people in your Resistance and your best pilot commander just saved the entire Resistance due to taking advantage of a military opening? You acknowledge that the demotion was in error.   
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: AP on December 28, 2017, 06:51:46 PM
Yeah, Leia and Purple Hair seemed a bit too smug and were needlessly critical of Poe.  I mean, he needs to follow orders, but slapping the guy, demoting him, and purposefully antagonizing him for no reason was a bit much.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: Clownprince23 on December 28, 2017, 07:38:17 PM
Was the First Order tracking every ship or just tracking the main one? If it was just the main one, why didn't they just shuttle everyone from that ship to the support ships and then have those jump to light speed all in different locations?
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: Bran Mak Morn on December 28, 2017, 08:18:48 PM
Wow this movie really sounds like a super fuck up!

I’ve lost interest but also intrigued to see what a mess the franchise has become.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: HalloweenJack on December 28, 2017, 10:16:49 PM
become?
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: XerxesTWD on December 28, 2017, 10:31:33 PM
Was the First Order tracking every ship or just tracking the main one? If it was just the main one, why didn't they just shuttle everyone from that ship to the support ships and then have those jump to light speed all in different locations?
A lot of smaller ships have to piggyback on the bigger ones for light speed.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: Master on December 29, 2017, 09:32:54 AM
Yeah, not every ship has a hyperdrive. That was why they were going to use cloaking on the smaller ships to fly to the nearby planet.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: Clownprince23 on December 29, 2017, 01:36:59 PM
Ah, I see. I missed parts of that because my youngest son put popcorn in his ear.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: NeoGreenLantern on December 29, 2017, 09:07:52 PM
Was the First Order tracking every ship or just tracking the main one? If it was just the main one, why didn't they just shuttle everyone from that ship to the support ships and then have those jump to light speed all in different locations?
A lot of smaller ships have to piggyback on the bigger ones for light speed.

So the bigger ship has to open up hyperspace so the smaller ships can go through? Sounds like the smaller ships did an impressive feat there.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: -K-M- on December 31, 2017, 11:58:35 AM
'Last Jedi' Grosses Are Collapsing With The Worst Daily Holds Of All 9 Star Wars Movies

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.forbes.com/sites/robcain/2017/12/22/last-jedi-daily-grosses-are-swiftly-collapsing-the-worst-holds-of-all-9-star-wars-movies/amp/ (https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.forbes.com/sites/robcain/2017/12/22/last-jedi-daily-grosses-are-swiftly-collapsing-the-worst-holds-of-all-9-star-wars-movies/amp/)

Their still going to make lots of money but big drop
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: Master on December 31, 2017, 10:53:43 PM
Yeah, where all other SW movies have been pinnacle elite, this will likely be “just” elite. Still a success, but Disney wants unparalleled success considering how much they dropped on this.

If Rian Johnson still gets his own trilogy, expect more studio meddling to keep his plots more streamlined and have less prequel-level humor.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: Commander on December 31, 2017, 11:13:14 PM
The Force is extremely strong on this movie.

In just 3 weeks >> $1B globally.

Word of mouth really helped bring movie goers to this movie.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: Mightily Oats on December 31, 2017, 11:20:41 PM
The Force is extremely strong on this movie.

In just 3 weeks >> $1B globally.

Word of mouth really helped bring movie goers to this movie.
....the Star Wars name really helped bring moviegoers to this movie.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: Commander on December 31, 2017, 11:43:15 PM
Superman Batman Wonder Woman Flash... cultural icons... a movie that turned into a loss between 50 to 100M
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: Mightily Oats on January 01, 2018, 12:13:56 AM
Superman Batman Wonder Woman Flash... cultural icons... a movie that turned into a loss between 50 to 100M
...because the DCCU is a horribly handled mess and we're 4 movies deep and only Wonder Woman was any good

and as much as I love Superman and Batman, even they're not Star Wars

Attack of the Clones has decent reviews for fuck sakes
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: Commander on January 01, 2018, 01:57:35 AM
The movie going trend has shifted where previously movie critics were ignored, blogs and Youtube reviews as well... movie goers have become wiser (not the voter's though) in holding their money instead of just not giving a damn anymore. Why did a relative unknown like "Coco" surged past a branded, star-powered movie like the "JL" during Thanksgiving? I didn't even see a trailer of Coco in Youtube yet I got drowned by various JL trailers.

MOS & BvS had terrible reviews but by the 3rd installment with the same possible outcome, they stopped watching the same sheit... regardless of how very popular the characters were. Now, DC realizing this shift that "branding" is no longer a guarantee, pulled the plug on MOS2 & JL2 even Flash is on hold now.

WW had a core group of target audience yet suddenly due to positive & gushing reviews the awesomness of WW became like a wild fire with even kids enjoying it & them sharing their experience via Instagram & Snapchats. If you put WW with the same Zac Snyder treatment where everything was doom & gloom, regardless of how known WW is... the movie will likely very much fail.

As a matter of fact, having that "positive" Superman in JL which was said to be injected by Whedon was a medicine too-late.

Branding does help.. but audiences have become smarter. So TF6 which was going to round up Michael Bay's supposed to-be final trilogy has been buried 6 feet underground after a dismal performance. Not even China could save it.

The SW TLJ gushing still continues to be strong. Social media is still buzzing positively for R & B and L & L.
The Force is strong in this movie.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: Mightily Oats on January 01, 2018, 04:47:54 AM
Nice rant

Star Wars is going to make huge bucks regardless of word of mouth

I'm sorry
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: Commander on January 01, 2018, 05:05:12 AM
Rant? Lol. It's an observed trend.

That's the exact fallacy an insider said on Tsujihara when he pushed to release Justice League at its dismal state. People will see it due to brand. Regardless of length, story, etc. Brand. How wrong was he.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: Mightily Oats on January 01, 2018, 07:01:46 AM
A lot of people still saw that movie.

A lot.

And again, Justice League isn't Star Wars

Nothing else is Star Wars
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: Gree on January 01, 2018, 12:40:19 PM
Harry Potter?
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: DarthAlani on January 01, 2018, 03:02:17 PM
Harry Potter is huge. Averaging about $950 million per film and grossing over $25 billion as a franchise.  The MCU is pretty much on par with Star Wars now with over a decade of success not matched by any other film franchise. 

LOTR and James Bond are after those as far as success goes.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: nu-safado on January 08, 2018, 04:49:52 PM
Star Wars is a BIG question mark in every regard after the Last jedi

The film calculated that longer time fans were dispensable to bring in a Disneyfied audience to watch the new generation which didn't concern itself with the hige,sprawling word that had been built over more than 40 years. VERY bad mpve. The next film will have to fix that or thee parks could be in serious danger. Harry Potter was an exception - it followed a specific book series and once it hit the end of the road, the new series (The American Grindelwald series) are doing mediocre busines

The MCU after phase 4 is a question mark as well.

I think DC will make a comeback but it will take some time

Star Wars CAN make a comeback - although I wouldn't call TLJ at 1.2 billion at presetna failure as its still likely to fall into 1.4 total - even the 1.3 it likely hits next week isn't terrible.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: XerxesTWD on January 08, 2018, 08:18:26 PM
Star Wars is a BIG question mark in every regard after the Last jedi

The film calculated that longer time fans were dispensable to bring in a Disneyfied audience to watch the new generation which didn't concern itself with the hige,sprawling word that had been built over more than 40 years. VERY bad mpve. The next film will have to fix that or thee parks could be in serious danger. Harry Potter was an exception - it followed a specific book series and once it hit the end of the road, the new series (The American Grindelwald series) are doing mediocre busines

The MCU after phase 4 is a question mark as well.

I think DC will make a comeback but it will take some time

Star Wars CAN make a comeback - although I wouldn't call TLJ at 1.2 billion at presetna failure as its still likely to fall into 1.4 total - even the 1.3 it likely hits next week isn't terrible.
WTF? Fantastic Beasts made 800 million. That's only mediocre if you make a Batman vs Superman movie.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: Ditto on January 08, 2018, 09:39:12 PM
Star Wars is a BIG question mark in every regard after the Last jedi

The film calculated that longer time fans were dispensable to bring in a Disneyfied audience to watch the new generation which didn't concern itself with the hige,sprawling word that had been built over more than 40 years. VERY bad mpve. The next film will have to fix that or thee parks could be in serious danger. Harry Potter was an exception - it followed a specific book series and once it hit the end of the road, the new series (The American Grindelwald series) are doing mediocre busines

The MCU after phase 4 is a question mark as well.

I think DC will make a comeback but it will take some time

Star Wars CAN make a comeback - although I wouldn't call TLJ at 1.2 billion at presetna failure as its still likely to fall into 1.4 total - even the 1.3 it likely hits next week isn't terrible.

Are you fucking high? I mean honestly.

Star Wars fans were going to cry about something if they got a perfect film. They’ll get the fuck over it and line up for whatever comes next, just like they do every time.

And Star Wars didn’t set up some big sprawling universe. Most people aren’t aware of the existence of the EU, and the movies cover two generations of one family on a few different planets basically doing the same thing each movie.
 
The MCU is the furthest thing in the world besides Star Wars from being a question mark. They could film an actual piece of shit and put it on film and we’d all sit through the credits with hopes of seeing a teaser for piece of shit 2. Stop kidding yourself.

DC has done absolutely nothing to make anyone think they’ll ever figure things out. They got it mostly right one time and everything else has been an abject failure. Wouldn’t surprise me at all if they just went back to Batman movies.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: Mightily Oats on January 09, 2018, 02:38:40 AM
This your first time being aware of safado?

He's not high, he's just stupid as shit
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: -K-M- on January 09, 2018, 10:48:24 PM
Star Wars is a BIG question mark in every regard after the Last jedi

The film calculated that longer time fans were dispensable to bring in a Disneyfied audience to watch the new generation which didn't concern itself with the hige,sprawling word that had been built over more than 40 years. VERY bad mpve. The next film will have to fix that or thee parks could be in serious danger. Harry Potter was an exception - it followed a specific book series and once it hit the end of the road, the new series (The American Grindelwald series) are doing mediocre busines

The MCU after phase 4 is a question mark as well.

I think DC will make a comeback but it will take some time

Star Wars CAN make a comeback - although I wouldn't call TLJ at 1.2 billion at presetna failure as its still likely to fall into 1.4 total - even the 1.3 it likely hits next week isn't terrible.

(http://herochat.com/index.php?action=dlattach;attach=900;type=avatar)
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: nu-safado on January 09, 2018, 11:02:50 PM
Wow, that's some venom

Star Wars fans have quite a bit to cry about

Mark Hamill himself has been somewhat vocal; at the very least to the extent that he can be considering his position, on his opinion on the treatment of LUke Skywalker. Virtually all of the OT characters have been killed off and the fans who make up Star Wars dedicated, die hard base are extemely divided. Not divided in the sense that "oh well no gets everything they wabnt" divided. They're truly and utterly despondent

A fair share have abandoned Youtube channels, gone to twitter, and overall made a huge stink on the internet.

Another matter of note is that Star Wars is having awful week to week drops. It's in a virtually "clear" January and its down to Coco and Jumanji. Can anyone imagine Infinity War losing out to Jumanji on its third week?

This is the middle film of a trilogy that has brought back the Original Trilogy characters 42 years after their initial debut and its barely going to make Age of Ultron or Fast and the Furious numbers after a beat for beat rehash took in the #2 box office of all time

That's the difference between a big box office number and a strong box office number

As for Marvel - there are certainly question marks. It's Marvel's 10 year anniversary and its been the cinematic equivalent of a sure thing every time its been out.

However.........

The major story arc that started with Iron Man is coming to an end with Infinity War and I'd be willing to beat one of the upcoming films will make more than The Force Awakens.

And then what?

How long will RDJ and Chris Evans stay in their roles? I'm sure they'll cameo in upcoming films to do their part but can you see either of those actors continuously reprising time-consuming roles for the next 5, 10 years? They're already expressed their desire to move on and Chris Hemsworth did Ragnorok after he got the comedy film that cfit his acting chops - otherwise he might have been close to out.

So, how sure a thing are Marvel films after the A team is gone?

I'm nt saying that Mrvel is going to suddenly turn into X Men 3, but phase 4 might have to deal with the main cast not being in the mix and new films either not having as cohesive a narrative or audiences not taking to every single film in the narrative as they have so far

Marvel's still Marvel but they might not be able to hit 700 million a flickon autopilot and if I were Kevin Feige, I'd be sweating a bit about Phase 4.  I thnk overall he will pull it off, but it isn't as sure a thing as it seems

Fantastic Beasts numbers - as good as they were - still didn't generate the excitement I'd expect from a Harry potter franchise flick. At this pojt its intuition but I don't see the new spin-off being able to carry the heavy load that Rowlings books did, I just don't feel the anticipation.

Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: Ditto on January 10, 2018, 06:19:43 AM
Chris Evans expressed his desire to move on? Chris Hemsworth didn’t just come out saying he wants to play Thor in phase 4? Kevin Feige who just regained nearly all the toys he was missing is sweating? I can think of a good few big villains that will make Thanos look like a walk in the park.
Marvel is going to be fine.

Stop projecting your DC disappointment onto franchises who know what they’re doing.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: AP on January 10, 2018, 07:19:09 AM
Chris Evans expressed his desire to move on? Chris Hemsworth didn’t just come out saying he wants to play Thor in phase 4? Kevin Feige who just regained nearly all the toys he was missing is sweating? I can think of a good few big villains that will make Thanos look like a walk in the park.
Marvel is going to be fine.

Stop projecting your DC disappointment onto franchises who know what they’re doing.

Hemsworth said he wanted to continue being Thor as long as Marvel lets him.  Evans probably won't do anymore Cap movies, but he has implied he might be willing to come back as a smaller role, so he might RDJ it for a few movies.

But yeah, Marvel isn't in trouble.  Tom Holland is a young kid who is apparently willing to be Spider-Man for the next 15 years or so, Guardians of the Galaxy is still going strong, and there are new movies on the way like Captain Marvel or the X-Men reboot that will ensure things will be kept fresh at least for another phase or two.  The inevitable Avengers vs X-Men movie will make all the money.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: Bran Mak Morn on January 10, 2018, 07:26:19 PM
The inevitable Avengers vs X-Men movie will make all the money.

Yeah but are we, in our mid-40's/early 50's gonna give a shit when it finally does?

Personally I'm not actually rushing to the cinemas these days to watch them, regardless of the franchise.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: NeoGreenLantern on January 10, 2018, 07:48:20 PM
Most of us are not that old. I'm like one of the oldest people here and I'm only 35.

And yeah I'm still fucking hyped and will be hyped for a long time. Marvel makes pure candy and in a world that full of bullshit and brussel sprouts I still need some candy.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: -K-M- on January 10, 2018, 07:55:13 PM
Most of us are not that old. I'm like one of the oldest people here and I'm only 35.

And yeah I'm still fucking hyped and will be hyped for a long time. Marvel makes pure candy and in a world that full of bullshit and brussel sprouts I still need some candy.

Ill be your huckleberry

(https://i.imgur.com/h1NOk6T.jpg)
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: NeoGreenLantern on January 10, 2018, 08:00:14 PM
applaude
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: AP on January 10, 2018, 08:18:54 PM
When I'm 50, I'll still be geeking over this shit.  I spent my entire childhood wanting to see a cinematic superhero universe, so I'm on this train as long as it's running.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: Bran Mak Morn on January 11, 2018, 12:08:05 AM
When I'm 50, I'll still be geeking over this shit.  I spent my entire childhood wanting to see a cinematic superhero universe, so I'm on this train as long as it's running.

Yeah I'm 50 this year & I also remember thinking the same, seeing fav characters finally being adapted onto the big screen.
Batman/Burton, Sin City, 300, Supes saving the plane in Returns, Batman Begins & 1st Avengers was WOW!
But then the hit & misses, the mediocre sequels, production company politics tampering...I kinda got jaded falling for the hype.

Sadly I don't have much faith in rebooting the Xmen franchise.
And if the Avengers & XMen ever share the same screen together, it's going to be tainted with copyright issues & the need for pretty actors to fill in the spandex.
 
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: AP on January 11, 2018, 12:17:22 AM
When I'm 50, I'll still be geeking over this shit.  I spent my entire childhood wanting to see a cinematic superhero universe, so I'm on this train as long as it's running.

Yeah I'm 50 this year & I also remember thinking the same, seeing fav characters finally being adapted onto the big screen.
Batman/Burton, Sin City, 300, Supes saving the plane in Returns, Batman Begins & 1st Avengers was WOW!
But then the hit & misses, the mediocre sequels, production company politics tampering...I kinda got jaded falling for the hype.

Sadly I don't have much faith in rebooting the Xmen franchise.
And if the Avengers & XMen ever share the same screen together, it's going to be tainted with copyright issues & the need for pretty actors to fill in the spandex.

What copyrights issues would there be?
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: Bran Mak Morn on January 11, 2018, 12:43:17 AM
I'm just recounting Sony/Spiderman.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: AP on January 11, 2018, 12:59:20 AM
I'm just recounting Sony/Spiderman.

Except Marvel will own X-Men when all is said and done.  There is no sharing.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: Bandido on January 11, 2018, 01:20:54 AM
The only movie series I loved as a kid a I care nothing about is (Ironic placement) Star Wars. Heck, I enjoyed going to Justice League - For as much as DC failed, they tried hard enough going from BvS to JL that it gives me hope.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: Bran Mak Morn on January 11, 2018, 06:08:47 AM
I enjoyed going to Justice League - For as much as DC failed, they tried hard enough going from BvS to JL that it gives me hope.

Personally I enjoyed more the audaciousness of BVS than the blatant studio interferences that came with JL.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: nu-safado on January 11, 2018, 11:52:10 AM
To clarify a point, I don't think Marvel is in "danger."

They're at the end of a 10 year story arc and they are at a crossroads; they can't just add in characters to an existing and compelling story line that's been gaining momentum from day one.

They will have to replace the stars that have built their universe ; Chris Hemsworth decided to play Thor for as long as Marvel wanted AFTER extracting creative concessions, namely Hemsworth wanted to have fun as a comedic actor rather than play a drab Shakespearean Thor.

RDJ and Evans will likely show up in cameos or short segments but I doubt that 10 years in either will be willing to forego the capital they've built up financially and in terms of creative leeway to create the projects they want in Hollywood. I'd also factor in that Evans has to diet and train lots of fat off and muscle on everytime he suits up and that's likely tiring for anyone.

Even RDJ has to show up in relatively good shape

We'll see how they do it but I trust Feige implicitly. They will have to work harder and they can't phone it in like they have for the last 5 years, but I'm positive that Feige will pull it off

I think DC will get its act together as well

In a strange way, JL might have beena good thing.

Kevin Tsujihara and the suits at Warner were heard all the warnings but kept coming up between 600-900 million per film. That's not Marvel money but for "good enough" executives who're protecting their bonuses I can't iamgine that they cared all that much. Once JL hit and the non-die hard DC fans were picked off, Warner clearly got the message

We've seen an enormous shakeup at the top end and DC has finally gotten what it most needed, a central controlling figure to control creativer and marke5ing. I forget his name but he's a James Wan protege and James Wan is one of the best horror directors out there and he's equally as good as a creative and a business man. Hell,m he got one of the Fast and the Furious's best box offices to date so he knows franchises.

I expect Aquaman the solo film has potential.

DC has a lot going for it now. It has some clearly established winners: Wonder Woman, Patty Jenkins, Margot Robbie's Harley, James Wan, Henry Cavill (he has a good following), Duane Johnson under contract and Viola Davis. Talent wise they have a deep bench. If they get it together with their Feige like leader, they will put out films that reflect their talent pool.

And agreed - board members here range from their 20's to their 50's and I honestly don't see people not geeking out over superhero films and the genre in general. Why would anone stop? If people enjoy comic books and great fiction then there's always something else to enjoy. Tastes might become more sophisticated and people might want more vertigo-like stuff to become mainstream but eventually people will start to want to pass their fave hero's and stories on to their kids and enjoy them themselves.

JMO
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: -K-M- on January 12, 2018, 10:22:16 AM
I am curious if JJ in the next movie will decide to do a 180 and ignore last Jedi story points.

Knights of ren finally appearing
Luke returns to his true heroic self
Snooke returns
Rey parents being someone important
Story how maz got the lightsaber
Darth Vader’s helmet
Etc

He did set them up and no payoff with it thus far. He might just say screw it and let it be
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: Mightily Oats on January 12, 2018, 12:19:14 PM
Abrams likes hinting at shit more than he likes actually laying a narrative foundation to build on

Also, he's the most mediocre filmaker to ever draw breath
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: Uhtceare on January 12, 2018, 12:38:20 PM
Henry Cavill

Cavill sucks ass. A saltine cracker has more charisma. The role needs to be recast. Even with a better director, Cavill will suck the life out of any scene he's in.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: XerxesTWD on January 12, 2018, 05:07:37 PM
Henry Cavill

Cavill sucks ass. A saltine cracker has more charisma. The role needs to be recast. Even with a better director, Cavill will suck the life out of any scene he's in.
Have you only seen him playing Superman or something?
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: AP on January 12, 2018, 05:45:12 PM
Abrams likes hinting at shit more than he likes actually laying a narrative foundation to build on

Also, he's the most mediocre filmaker to ever draw breath

Yeah, the dude is highly overrated.  I used to be on the Abrams hype train, but almost every project he's ever started has all these mysteries set up that never pay off.  He outright admitted in an interview that he never had an answer for all the shit he set up in Lost and didn't think the show would last long enough for him to bother explaining everything.  Then you have Cloverfield and Super 8 where he set up all this intrigue about the projects and one just ended up being a typical giant monster movie and the other was just a typical alien movie that served as an homage to Spielberg.  Then you have all the shit built up for the new Star Wars that goes nowhere.  It's all typical JJ Abrams.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: Master on January 13, 2018, 02:30:35 PM
Just saw it again. Very enjoyable with a few glaring weaknesses. How did the thief cut a deal that told the FO about the secret Resistance escape plan? Finn and Rose didn’t know it. Poe didn’t even learn it until he woke up on the way out.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: Master on January 13, 2018, 02:40:53 PM
Also Holdo was viciously dumb in this. I didn’t remember this from the first watch, but Poe gave her three opportunities to explain to him and the crew what her plan was. When it gets to the point of a mutiny, you may want to swallow your pride and explain to your top pilot what your plan is.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: Rynox on January 13, 2018, 03:38:23 PM
The good

- A visually striking movie, everything was top notch from the designs, (new praetorian guard), sets, animation, (Snoke looked great) special fx, etc. Thankfully it was lighter on obnoxious lens flares, however they still poked their heads in every now and then.

- The praetorian guard were pretty badass, even the way they snapped into battle stances when Kylo stood up in defiance to Snoke

- Despite being mo-capped, the way Snoke moved was believable and cool to watch.

- The lightspeed suicide scene was one of the most stand-out pieces of the movie for me

- Way better than TFA in virtually every way

The bad


- The idea that the resistance is doing even worse, and has far less members now than in the past is kind of mind boggling to me. I know that the latest death star destroyed several planets which were in support of the resistance, but it just makes it seem as if previous victories in movies were moot, because the resistance was just about completely destroyed this time around. Yeah I'm talking about the remaining fifteen, lolol.

They also seemed to have virtually no advancement in tech, or ships (LOL space gravity bombers) so it seems as if the writers don't know how to flesh out the resistance, other than to portray them the exact same way they have been for the last few movies. Really seems lazy...

- Secoundary characters are useless; Rose and Finn has a dumb subplot that resulted in them nearly getting killed. Poe of course is the exception as he had a pretty sick ship battle at the beginning, before being relegated to spinning his wheels for the rest of the film.

The ugly

- Rey is still a huge Mary Sue: she is apparently so adept as a jedi by the end of the movie, that she no longer needs teaching according to Yoda. I'm sorry, what has she learned exactly? She received a lesson and a half from Luke before he stopped, and she instantly learned how to harness control of the force. Such a terrible character, and it's a shame, because I'm sure Daisy Ridley is an awesome actress, but she's a victim of horrible writing. She seemed to more or less hold her own to Snoke's elite praetorian guard just as Kylo did.

- Praetorian guard were awesome in concept, however they seemed to die in almost cartoonish fashion (getting shredded by a fan in the floor, and seeing pieces of their outfit fly up)

- As mentioned by basically everybody, the casual killing of core characters. This was atrocious, and seems to be the philosophy that is being applied- not only in the movie through Kylo "Let the past die" but by how they ungracefully remove the classics. Han was stabbed, and fell off a ledge, Luke just straight up ghosts off-screen, Leia remains to be seen, but I don't have high hopes anymore, Ackbar just gets blown up? If anything the lightspeed suicide scene should have gone to him, it would have been a fitting and badass ending for his character, instead of introducing Holdo for no reason, and then giving it to her.

- Leia flying through space, and apparently not needing to breathe? GOTG got a pass with Starlord doing it (omg spoilers) because he's not completely human, still a bit silly but it worked. With this? It was jarring and didn't fit within the SW universe.

- One of the coolest scenes in the entire movie was Luke seemingly block/dodging all the AT-AT walker fire, this scene's coolness was immediately destroyed completely by making him an astral projection-- huge mistake.

- Killing off Snoke was another mistake and wasted potential, as we know nothing of him, and it no longer matters. Kylo is the only remaining big baddie, and he's not very scary if Rey can already best him in lightsaber combat. I really feel they painted themselves in a corner, and we don't have much to look forward to in the next movie, especially with Luke gone.


Lastly Rey attacking Luke, and even pulling her lighstaber on him was straight-up sith/Anakin behaviour, and was incredibly stupid. She learns nothing, and basically bullies her way around the past two movies.


Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: nu-safado on January 15, 2018, 08:03:56 PM
Quote
As mentioned by basically everybody, the casual killing of core characters. This was atrocious, and seems to be the philosophy that is being applied- not only in the movie through Kylo "Let the past die" but by how they ungracefully remove the classics. Han was stabbed, and fell off a ledge, Luke just straight up ghosts off-screen, Leia remains to be seen, but I don't have high hopes anymore, Ackbar just gets blown up? If anything the lightspeed suicide scene should have gone to him, it would have been a fitting and badass ending for his character, instead of introducing Holdo for no reason, and then giving it to her.

That bothered the hell out of me

Ackbar - the guy who has been fighting the good fight for over 4 decades, gets killed by causally being commented on offscreen

Holdo just shows up and takes his moment?

The film felt like  a deconstruction of heroism. Johnson went out of his way to crack on the mythologival components that make Star Wars well...Star Wars.

Luke "What am I supposed to do, stand in front of the first order with my laser sword?"
Whaaaattttttttt

Well, kind of.........

I got legitimately excited when Luke shrugged off all the At At fire and I thought this was his Darth Vader Rogue One moment that would have made me forgive all of the film that came before it. When I figured out that he wasn't leaving footprints I knew what Johnson was up to and I knew he was a goner, I felt a sinking feeling in my stomach. It sucked

The whole movie felt like an Elseworlds and I think it has really left the future of Star Wars in an untenable position. I think the best solution going forward is to focus on the KOTOR storyline and forget the new outer rim stories
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: Uhtceare on January 15, 2018, 08:46:43 PM
I would have preferred that Leia get to do the spaceship ram. Would have been a perfect send-off for a character who won't be appearing in anymore movies for obvious reasons.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: AP on January 15, 2018, 09:04:55 PM
Yeah, they could have given Leia a heroic death instead of this random new character who was really unlikable.  Now, Leia will die between two movies with no fanfare.  These new Star Wars movies have really shot themselves in the foot.

Even when it comes to the new characters, Daisy Ridely said she didn't want to do anymore Star Wars movies after the next one.  Poe and Finn were sidelined so much in this movie, I'm not sure they can bounce back enough to carry a trilogy on their own.  Who else do they have?  Rose has been described as the new Jar Jar.  If they redeem Kylo in the next movie, I don't think he has enough good will to carry his own trilogy.  They will have to completely do their own thing with an entirely new cast of characters... again... but without any of the familiar faces the fans loved.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: Kallor on January 15, 2018, 09:25:15 PM
I would have gone with the moment where Kylo stops himself from shooting Leia, only for her to get "killed" anyway by another enemy ship.  I think that's a meaningful death scene in service of Kylo's narrative since, given Carrie's death, a great Leia sendoff in the future isn't possible. 

The only issue is that it happens early so Luke and Leia wouldn't have a scene together, but TFA had already ruined the possibility of the original trio together on-screen so *shrug*.  Maybe they could have played around with the footage to use the scene in some other context/place, but they didn't do much with the reunion anyway. 
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: nu-safado on January 15, 2018, 09:47:13 PM
The probelm with Leia's sendoff and a lot of what I think was planned for episode 9 was that filming was complete when Carrie Fisher died. I suspect her story arc was a lot bigger in 9 than we thought and she was the one OT character besides Chewie who was going to get real development

Ford wanted out of the series, so his death, although horribly done, wasn't a surprise.

Luke's story arc was tragically awful. His entire arc could have been redeemed by giving him one awesome scene at the end. Even if he defeated the At At's and let Kylo strike him down Obi Wan style, I would have loved it. True to form and his rank misunderstanding of Star Wars in general, Johnson was quoted as saying that Luke's arc ended in ROTJ. Apparently the legions of Star Wars fans who have been fan ficitoning this since 1983 might beg to differ but hey........

Leia was shown to be at the very least a very competent force user and we see her sensing Han's death in TFA and surviving space in TLJ. Episode 9 would have likely teased her character out. As it stands right now it will be awfully hard to writ out a fitting end for her; the deaths of the rest of the OT will look even more grim

I am hopeful at the use of force ghosts. Yoda interacted in the physical world and his scene with Luke was easily the best scene in the movie. I felt real emotion at that scene.

I would be surprised if Luke didn't in some way realize that he could be of more use as a force ghost and he will be able to interact along with the other force ghosts in episode 9. I wouldn't be surprised if Snoke is in wepisdoe 9 as the first dark side force ghost we've seen or if he has been able to jump bodies - though I find that to be a cheap story trick.

I honestly like Kylo Ren a lot, though seeing him become the true villain he coukd be is going to be more difficult now. JJ Abrams has his work cut out for him  just Rey and Kylo isn't enough

As otherwise mentioned, JJ Abrams is a great storyteller in getting intriguing ideas out there but he's a terrible closer - he can't wrap up a story so I don't know what he's going to do here. I didn't trust Treverow but I would seriously cionsider asking Lucas to concept along with someone else writing (Lucas can't write)
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: Mightily Oats on January 15, 2018, 10:12:30 PM
I would have gone with the moment where Kylo stops himself from shooting Leia, only for her to get "killed" anyway by another enemy ship.  I think that's a meaningful death scene in service of Kylo's narrative since, given Carrie's death, a great Leia sendoff in the future isn't possible.
That's what I thought they did in light of her real life death, and I really likes it

Then she did the Force thing that I was very meh about.
Quote
The only issue is that it happens early so Luke and Leia wouldn't have a scene together, but TFA had already ruined the possibility of the original trio together on-screen so *shrug*.  Maybe they could have played around with the footage to use the scene in some other context/place, but they didn't do much with the reunion anyway.
Lots of easy ways for them to have a scene together, like maybe even though Luke cut himself off, since they're twins he'd feel her death.

I'd have preferred a psychic conversation while she dies in space over her pulling herself back
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: Panthergod on January 15, 2018, 11:03:52 PM
Yeah, they could have given Leia a heroic death instead of this random new character who was really unlikable.  Now, Leia will die between two movies with no fanfare.  These new Star Wars movies have really shot themselves in the foot.

Even when it comes to the new characters, Daisy Ridely said she didn't want to do anymore Star Wars movies after the next one.  Poe and Finn were sidelined so much in this movie, I'm not sure they can bounce back enough to carry a trilogy on their own.  Who else do they have?  Rose has been described as the new Jar Jar.  If they redeem Kylo in the next movie, I don't think he has enough good will to carry his own trilogy.  They will have to completely do their own thing with an entirely new cast of characters... again... but without any of the familiar faces the fans loved.

AND they went out of their way to alienate the fanbase who kept it viable for decades, to boot. Star Wars is done for now anyway.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: AP on January 15, 2018, 11:59:48 PM
Yeah, they could have given Leia a heroic death instead of this random new character who was really unlikable.  Now, Leia will die between two movies with no fanfare.  These new Star Wars movies have really shot themselves in the foot.

Even when it comes to the new characters, Daisy Ridely said she didn't want to do anymore Star Wars movies after the next one.  Poe and Finn were sidelined so much in this movie, I'm not sure they can bounce back enough to carry a trilogy on their own.  Who else do they have?  Rose has been described as the new Jar Jar.  If they redeem Kylo in the next movie, I don't think he has enough good will to carry his own trilogy.  They will have to completely do their own thing with an entirely new cast of characters... again... but without any of the familiar faces the fans loved.

AND they went out of their way to alienate the fanbase who kept it viable for decades, to boot. Star Wars is done for now anyway.

Yeah, Marvel comics has the same problem at the moment.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: DarthAlani on January 16, 2018, 02:52:18 PM
Star Wars is in trouble now. You don't lose over $700 million at the box office and alienate your fanbase unless there is something wrong.  TLJ has the lowest audience scores for a Star Wars film for a reason.

Solo has been almost completely re-shot , there is no promotion for it so far and its undergoing even more reshooting.  I'm not expecting anything from that film.  It's a film no one wants.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: XerxesTWD on January 16, 2018, 03:05:05 PM
I'm interested in a Han Solo film, but probably not the one they came up with.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: -K-M- on January 16, 2018, 06:05:07 PM
'Star Wars: The Last Jedi' Box Office Drops 92% in China

https://www.google.ca/amp/comicbook.com/starwars/amp/2018/01/16/star-wars-the-last-jedi-china-box-office-drop/ (https://www.google.ca/amp/comicbook.com/starwars/amp/2018/01/16/star-wars-the-last-jedi-china-box-office-drop/)

This may hurt sales for the next movie. Though still will make a ridic amount
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: -K-M- on January 16, 2018, 06:28:23 PM
(https://media0dk-a.akamaihd.net/96/27/8ec74399a239babe8b08f9bc9b871dfa.jpg)
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: AP on January 16, 2018, 09:25:47 PM
(https://media0dk-a.akamaihd.net/96/27/8ec74399a239babe8b08f9bc9b871dfa.jpg)

Exactly!

Plus, she more or less sacrificed herself in that little maneuver.  Rose was the worst.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: Rynox on January 16, 2018, 09:40:31 PM
Jar-jar > Rose
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: INDRA THUNDERER on January 16, 2018, 10:33:49 PM
Jar-jar > Rose
THIS!She wasn't nearly as bad
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: -K-M- on January 17, 2018, 06:12:13 AM
Still don’t know how they survived. They crashed a few feet in front of the first order and did the first order just watch as Finn dragged her back slowly? They would have had to go even around the Kylo/Luke fight
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: Master on January 17, 2018, 10:00:54 PM
Still don’t know how they crashed a few feet in front of the first order and did the first order just watch as Finn dragged her back slowly? They would have had to go even around the Kylo/Luke fight

Also how did she catch up with him to t-bone his ship? He seemed to be flying at the max speed for those skimmers. She didn’t spot his suicide run until after she had travelled in the opposite direction a bit.

Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: Mightily Oats on January 17, 2018, 10:24:39 PM
Everything but her initial appearance was awful with Rose
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: XerxesTWD on January 18, 2018, 04:07:44 PM
Still don’t know how they crashed a few feet in front of the first order and did the first order just watch as Finn dragged her back slowly? They would have had to go even around the Kylo/Luke fight

Also how did she catch up with him to t-bone his ship? He seemed to be flying at the max speed for those skimmers. She didn’t spot his suicide run until after she had travelled in the opposite direction a bit.


She was a mechanic. Obviously she modded hers before deployment. CHECKMATE
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: -K-M- on January 18, 2018, 08:12:34 PM
She was a mechanic. Obviously she modded hers before deployment. CHECKMATE

(https://media.giphy.com/media/R3o1q7wqd9VdK/giphy.gif)
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: Commander on January 18, 2018, 10:12:50 PM
The movie still crossed the 1B record so I have no doubts about the canning of direct tie-ins for now.

The only gripe I have is placement of too many scenes for Rose. It's like Rian Johnson fell in love with her and decided to make her the major character with Rey and Kylo taking a back seat.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Btw, it seems Xerxes is right on how Rose caught up to Finn.

Some pointers as described in Scifi Stack Exchange

1. Finn's ship condition the time the beam hit his craft
2. The pressure of the wave he was facing
3. Rose was a mechanical genius and knew how to push the craft as compared to a janitor Storm Trooper
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: Master on January 20, 2018, 07:31:12 AM
I never got the impression arose was an astounding mechanic. Just competent enough for the mission.

Anyway, I read an article where Johnson explains he didn’t see a place to use the Knights of Ren. He could’ve put them in the throne fight, but that would require them all dying and add the complication of Kylo slaughtering his former dark Jedi allies. If Johnson sees the Knights as interchangeable with the Praetorian guards, I’m not sure if his opinion is “really strong guards” or “very mediocre former Jedi students”.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: AP on January 20, 2018, 07:32:50 AM
I never got the impression arose was an astounding mechanic. Just competent enough for the mission.

Anyway, I read an article where Johnson explains he didn’t see a place to use the Knights of Ren. He could’ve put them in the throne fight, but that would require them all dying and add the complication of Kylo slaughtering his former dark Jedi allies. If Johnson sees the Knights as interchangeable with the Praetorian guards, I’m not sure if his opinion is “really strong guards” or “very mediocre former Jedi students”.

He could have had 2-3 Knights in the throne room so that there would be more alive for the next movie.  That could set things up nicely.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: MTL76 on January 23, 2018, 06:11:25 PM
Watching this now and Ho. Le. Shit. Is it bad.

I'm about thirty minutes in (when Finn meets the crying mechanic - Rose?) and it's barely good enough to keep on as a background distraction during exercise. So far it's been:

-BORING generic space battle that really makes no sense other than show how lame the First Order ships are.

-Generic Sith pep talk. "I sensed great power in you." Blah.

-Luke being a giant pussy.

-Leia looking like she's used every last bit of Botox in the galaxy and speaking with marbles in her mouth.

-Blando replacement Leia with the dumbest look in the whole series. Star Wars has had some of the most memorable costumes and looks in sci-fi over the years. Now we get purple hair.

All delivered as if its being read from a screenplay. I feel bad for dedicated fans of the franchise. Kylo Ren is the only one who's shown anything that resembles human emotion.

---

EDIT: Also, I thought the Rebellion won the war? Why is the battered remnant of the Empire, the First Order, is hunting down the Resistance, which is supposed to be the expeditionary branch of the victorious and presumably much stronger New Republic? It's just a rehash of the original trilogy. They should have made the First Order the desperate, inventive guerrilla army, and the New Republic/Resistance the bloated, inefficient but more powerful superpower. It would have been a nice inversion.

I feel like every time this movie had the choice between doing something novel and unexpected, or something predictable and repetitive, they went with the latter.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: Rynox on January 23, 2018, 09:25:54 PM

EDIT: Also, I thought the Rebellion won the war? Why is the battered remnant of the Empire, the First Order, is hunting down the Resistance, which is supposed to be the expeditionary branch of the victorious and presumably much stronger New Republic? It's just a rehash of the original trilogy. They should have made the First Order the desperate, inventive guerrilla army, and the New Republic/Resistance the bloated, inefficient but more powerful superpower. It would have been a nice inversion.

This x 100


I feel like every time this movie had the choice between doing something novel and unexpected, or something predictable and repetitive, they went with the latter.

According to critics (lolol) it was, but thankfully I think most fans realize it's nonsense.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: Master on January 24, 2018, 12:11:18 PM
Gotta blame Abrahams and Disney for wiping out the New Republic so easily. Pretty BS. Seeing a full on war with the First Order as the underdog would’ve been great.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: -K-M- on February 14, 2018, 09:02:34 PM
HISHE

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rCB8DUGpYQQ (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rCB8DUGpYQQ)
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: AP on February 14, 2018, 09:20:56 PM
HISHE

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rCB8DUGpYQQ (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rCB8DUGpYQQ)

Better than the final film.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: NeoGreenLantern on February 14, 2018, 10:24:00 PM
Indeed. Especially the Akbar stuff.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: Master on February 15, 2018, 07:31:35 PM
The Ackbar stuff is 100% on point. Why introduce a new major character just to kill them off immediately while wiping away a classic major character? Holdo easily could have been left alive to take the shuttles while Ackbar (not killed off) made the big save.

And also great point on Finn and Rose jeopardizing so much for very stupid reasons (including parking in the open area on a private beach).

And just highlighting how poorly thought out the Rose save of Finn was at end. Just so dumb, and I had high hopes for Rose being cool. Her introduction was refreshing, as here was a common grunt getting to hobknob with her heroes and go on a secret mission! She could be a great “average Jane” audience surrogate, right? And then they make her and Finn’s mission a total shit show of stupidity. Finn is even tainted by the whole thing, but this plot was all Rose has... and it sucks.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: Fifthchild on February 19, 2018, 01:34:05 PM
i saw this movie pretty late in its run & never really gave my thoughts on it here but the more i think back on it now the worse it was.

I think everything has pretty much been said in terms of problems with the film but IMO the biggest failing is that it comes pretty close to fucking up the entire trilogy.

I didnt love Force Awakens but it was competent and set up some new characters and some intersting questions. Of course in TLJ the 2 biggest questions - "whats the deal with Snoke” and “who are Reys parents” - are answered in surprising ways that more or less amount to “it doesnt matter”.

While that seemed to wow a lot of critics, from a storytelling perspective it was a pretty fucked decision. What are we left with going into the final film in the series?

1) How is the rebellion going to inevitably beat the Nu Empire
2) Will Kylo Ren be redeemed or defeated?
3) Will Rey end up with Ren or with Finn?

1 is not a particularly interesting question - it will sustain the main plot of the film in terms of action etc but thats about it.
2 is more interesting but that whole idea feels like such a retread of Luke/Vader in Jedi anyway.
3 is much less interesting - not to even get into the Luke/Leia/Han parallels

So the main feeling i had after disappointment was how little there was to be invested in going into the 3rd film. Han is dead, Luke is dead, Leia is (somehow) dead (obv out of the film-makers control)…
Its actually quite amazing how this film quickly sucked the oxygen out of what had been a reinvigorated franchise.

I think it will be very interesting to see how this movie is viewed in 10-20 years time. The disparity between critical and audience response is very unusual (its almost always in the opposite direction). A lot of people have talked about how Empire didnt do as well commercially as the other SW films but quickly became regarded as the best film and that the same thing might happen here once people adjust. OTOH I genuinely feel this was pretty bad, and - in the context of both the larger film universe (where people might have fond memories of Luke etc) and this trilogy it was really bad.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: Mightily Oats on February 19, 2018, 01:49:24 PM
JJ Abrams didn't invigorate shit and he never fucking has. Dismissing two things he decided to set up while having no clue about himself (which isn't narrative groundwork, it's just some hollow bullshit he puts into everything he does to pretend to have depth) is fine.

This movie actually did its own thing, so warts and all I enjoyed it way the fuck more than A New Hope with lens flares

There's also a lot more questions to be asked going into the next question, like what's up with that kid and the broom at the end, but whatever

Fuck JJ Abrams
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: Bran Mak Morn on February 19, 2018, 04:21:27 PM

I think it will be very interesting to see how this movie is viewed in 10-20 years time.

The way Disney plans to flog this franchise, TLJ will be long forgotten & buried amidst all the spin offs & new trilogies that's planned for the next 10-20 years.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: Commander on February 19, 2018, 11:15:19 PM
The kid with the broom will be future founding Wizard of Hogswarts.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - *SPOILERS*
Post by: Fifthchild on February 20, 2018, 07:11:28 AM
JJ Abrams didn't invigorate shit and he never fucking has. Dismissing two things he decided to set up while having no clue about himself (which isn't narrative groundwork, it's just some hollow bullshit he puts into everything he does to pretend to have depth) is fine.

I agree that there prob wasnt much if anything decided on this point given that Johnson was able to completely make up his own answers but still.

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This movie actually did its own thing, so warts and all I enjoyed it way the fuck more than A New Hope with lens flares

This movie makes me appreciate Force Awakens a lot more, which at the time seemed way too reliant on nostalgia porn. In terms of doing its own thing I think "Rogue One" was everything this film was not - from the abrupt opening shot it actually feels like a non Star Wars movie set in the Star Wars universe. it has a female lead and a diverse cast without feeling like that was the point of the story. If TFA is A New Hope with lens flare TLJ is Empire crudely filtered through a bunch of random 2017 issues (the one percent, "toxic masculinity"/mansplaining ) - all it needed was a Trump analogue and some guy randomly sexually harrassing various female characters.

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There's also a lot more questions to be asked going into the next question, like what's up with that kid and the broom at the end, but whatever

Does that really seem like a question that will drive anyone to turn up opening weekend or something that will ever be addressed. I dont really see how there is a related question anyway - the kid had some force ability and the message was the same theme from the movie that things will go on with the next generation despite the fact that Yoda decided to blow up the accumulated wisdom of the Jedi because it made for some boring reading.