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General Forums => Debate => Topic started by: therock on July 26, 2017, 11:11:59 AM

Title: no more trangenders in the military
Post by: therock on July 26, 2017, 11:11:59 AM
https://www.yahoo.com/news/trump-u-s-military-wont-allow-transgender-people-serve-capacity-133152235.html

Well I know what I am doing if there ever a draft

Thing I dont get is this seem like a full millitary. Can somewhat get you dont want the bathroom thing..somewhat. Or being in women sports when your actully was born a guy

but if you defending the country, taking gun fire I dont give a shit what you do with your dick. Because I for one certaintly dont have the balls to go into the arm forces

Then again not in the millitary. Was this an issue that came up enough where this an actull issue that the the president needs to adress. Were their fights, rapes, gay bashing..what?
Title: Re: no more trangenders in the military
Post by: NeoGreenLantern on July 26, 2017, 01:51:34 PM
People think this is an anti-LGBT decision but I don't think it is. I think, since he is a draft dodger, he's trying to protect draft dodging rights.
Title: Re: no more trangenders in the military
Post by: MTL76 on July 26, 2017, 04:00:10 PM
Serving in the military is not a Constitutionally-protected right. The military excludes people from serving for a whole host reasons, both mental and physical.

 
Title: Re: no more trangenders in the military
Post by: NeoGreenLantern on July 26, 2017, 04:11:29 PM
Only if you don't think 14th amendment protection does not/should not extend to the LGBT community.
Title: Re: no more trangenders in the military
Post by: therock on July 26, 2017, 04:15:46 PM
and even if it not unconditional  exclude them

and you can avoid breaking the consintutuon and still discriminate in an assholish fashion
Title: Re: no more trangenders in the military
Post by: MTL76 on July 26, 2017, 04:41:34 PM
Only if you don't think 14th amendment protection does not/should not extend to the LGBT community.

The L,G and B are not affected by this, unless I've missed something.

TBH I'm not sure why LGB is linked so firmly to T in general.

Also, refresh my memory but how would this violate the 14th amendment?
Title: Re: no more trangenders in the military
Post by: 80sBaby on July 26, 2017, 06:24:01 PM
From what I've gathered, there's already many transgenders that serve in the military and provisions have already been made to accommodate them. Nor has it actually disrupted anything so, again, Trump is only doing this just to spite Obama.
Title: Re: no more trangenders in the military
Post by: LiquidSailor on July 26, 2017, 06:57:12 PM
Video of Trump saying goodbye to all the trans people he's kicking out of the military:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4M8Vwk5teY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4M8Vwk5teY)
Title: Re: no more trangenders in the military
Post by: NeoGreenLantern on July 26, 2017, 07:47:08 PM
Only if you don't think 14th amendment protection does not/should not extend to the LGBT community.

The L,G and B are not affected by this, unless I've missed something.

TBH I'm not sure why LGB is linked so firmly to T in general.

Also, refresh my memory but how would this violate the 14th amendment?

Generally the same conditions of rights is spread among those groups which is why they work together. For now it might only effect the T but the roll back can easily effect the rest if it continues.

The 14th amendment basically protects against discriminatory practices against minority groups. Specifically calling out discriminatory practices on the federal and state level.
Title: Re: no more trangenders in the military
Post by: Thanos6 on July 26, 2017, 09:29:42 PM
Only if you don't think 14th amendment protection does not/should not extend to the LGBT community.

The L,G and B are not affected by this, unless I've missed something.

TBH I'm not sure why LGB is linked so firmly to T in general.

Because they have the same enemies, basically.
Title: Re: no more trangenders in the military
Post by: Regar on July 27, 2017, 07:56:48 AM
Well "transgender" is just a mental illness ........ would you want someone who believed they were a "bird" in the military?

Mental illness is not a minority ......... it offends me that people try to make it so.
Title: Re: no more trangenders in the military
Post by: altoon on July 27, 2017, 08:44:43 AM
I think he's trying to galvanize his base and distract from the Russian stuff.
Title: Re: no more trangenders in the military
Post by: Propeus The Fallen on July 27, 2017, 08:52:31 AM
http://www.politico.com/story/2017/07/26/trump-transgender-military-ban-behind-the-scenes-240990?lo=ap_d1

Yep. Someone has to pay for the wall. :)
Title: Re: no more trangenders in the military
Post by: MTL76 on July 27, 2017, 09:57:41 AM
The military has broad latitude to deny entry to people for a whole host of reasons that would seem trivial in the civilian word. Sleepwalking, anxiety disorders, depression, minor health issues and so on. It's not like any other job. It's high stress, under conditions of great deprivation, in areas where routine health care may not be available for prolonged periods, and where the lives of others are in your hands constantly. They can't function under civilian rules.

I guess it depends on whether or not you think transgenderism is a mental disorder, or an actual gender. If it's the former, the ban makes sense. If it's the latter, it doesn't.
Title: Re: no more trangenders in the military
Post by: 80sBaby on July 27, 2017, 10:29:51 AM
The military has broad latitude to deny entry to people for a whole host of reasons that would seem trivial in the civilian word. Sleepwalking, anxiety disorders, depression, minor health issues and so on. It's not like any other job. It's high stress, under conditions of great deprivation, in areas where routine health care may not be available for prolonged periods, and where the lives of others are in your hands constantly. They can't function under civilian rules.

I guess it depends on whether or not you think transgenderism is a mental disorder, or an actual gender. If it's the former, the ban makes sense. If it's the latter, it doesn't.

The problem with your post is that it doesn't take into account that transgender have been serving in the military to awhile now with no severe issues coming up. This is a "solution" to a problem that doesn't exist.

Also, none of what you said is what Trump gave as the reason for his decision.
Title: Re: no more trangenders in the military
Post by: 80sBaby on July 27, 2017, 10:35:12 AM
Oh, and those that ARE in the military will not get an Honorable Discharge, which could affect their job prospects as civilians. But screw them, right?
Title: Re: no more trangenders in the military
Post by: MTL76 on July 27, 2017, 12:42:36 PM
Transgenders were only allowed to serve openly a year ago. I have no idea what effect this has had on general military preparedness. I'm assuming the people that would be the best judge of this are people in the military, and I would defer to them. I'd like to assume Trump is doing the same, but it would certainly fit with his personality to ignore them. I just don't know. There may have been zero problem associated with this, or they may have been numerous ones that may not have been brought up because of fear of crossing the Obama administration on one of their planing policy pushes.

I agree that prior to the ban being lifted in 2016, there were still transgendered people serving while in the closet, so to speak, and I agree it would be wrong for their status to be affected by this new decision now that they're open about their status. This is just another example, of which there are many, of the problems with a Presidential administration rapidly changing or undoing policies without considering the consequences or giving adequate notification. It certainly isn't unique to Trump but he seems to have a flair for it. Major (or minor, for that matter) policy decisions shouldn't be made by Twitter.
Title: Re: no more trangenders in the military
Post by: 80sBaby on July 27, 2017, 01:03:31 PM
Transgenders were only allowed to serve openly a year ago. I have no idea what effect this has had on general military preparedness. I'm assuming the people that would be the best judge of this are people in the military, and I would defer to them. I'd like to assume Trump is doing the same, but it would certainly fit with his personality to ignore them. I just don't know. There may have been zero problem associated with this, or they may have been numerous ones that may not have been brought up because of fear of crossing the Obama administration on one of their planing policy pushes.

I agree that prior to the ban being lifted in 2016, there were still transgendered people serving while in the closet, so to speak, and I agree it would be wrong for their status to be affected by this new decision now that they're open about their status. This is just another example, of which there are many, of the problems with a Presidential administration rapidly changing or undoing policies without considering the consequences or giving adequate notification. It certainly isn't unique to Trump but he seems to have a flair for it. Major (or minor, for that matter) policy decisions shouldn't be made by Twitter.

Well apparently, the Defense Chiefs don't think there's a problem with transgenders in the military so...

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/jul/27/donald-trump-transgender-ban-troops-pentagon-us-military

Yeah, Trump is an idiot.
Title: Re: no more trangenders in the military
Post by: therock on July 27, 2017, 01:39:09 PM
Transgenders were only allowed to serve openly a year ago. I have no idea what effect this has had on general military preparedness. I'm assuming the people that would be the best judge of this are people in the military, and I would defer to them. I'd like to assume Trump is doing the same, but it would certainly fit with his personality to ignore them. I just don't know. There may have been zero problem associated with this, or they may have been numerous ones that may not have been brought up because of fear of crossing the Obama administration on one of their planing policy pushes.

I agree that prior to the ban being lifted in 2016, there were still transgendered people serving while in the closet, so to speak, and I agree it would be wrong for their status to be affected by this new decision now that they're open about their status. This is just another example, of which there are many, of the problems with a Presidential administration rapidly changing or undoing policies without considering the consequences or giving adequate notification. It certainly isn't unique to Trump but he seems to have a flair for it. Major (or minor, for that matter) policy decisions shouldn't be made by Twitter.

only concern  i saw was cost of operation. if so just make a bill where u dont have to pay for it

the military seem to be taken by surprise on this. this fuck over soldiers who played by the rules

and worst it done on a whim it seem. and it probally worry gays a bit on what else will be undone
Title: Re: no more trangenders in the military
Post by: Hamburglar on July 27, 2017, 01:54:33 PM
https://www.yahoo.com/news/trump-u-s-military-wont-allow-transgender-people-serve-capacity-133152235.html

Well I know what I am doing if there ever a draft


Tell them you don't know how to read or write?
Title: Re: no more trangenders in the military
Post by: NeoGreenLantern on July 27, 2017, 02:10:11 PM
Well "transgender" is just a mental illness ........ would you want someone who believed they were a "bird" in the military?

Mental illness is not a minority ......... it offends me that people try to make it so.

If you want to go that route, mental disorders are not an automatic disqualifier for military service. People with autism, Asperger's, OCD, ADD, etc, etc, etc can serve in the military as long as they prove competent in their jobs.
Title: Re: no more trangenders in the military
Post by: 80sBaby on July 27, 2017, 02:13:03 PM
Plus it isn't actually a mental illness, so there's that.
Title: Re: no more trangenders in the military
Post by: NeoGreenLantern on July 27, 2017, 02:21:20 PM
I was going to bring that up but I figured it would be pointless to try and convince him otherwise when I can just point out mental illness doesn't disqualify you in the first place.
Title: Re: no more trangenders in the military
Post by: 80sBaby on July 27, 2017, 02:59:39 PM
Good point. I figure he'll probably ignore it, though.
Title: Re: no more trangenders in the military
Post by: Regar on July 27, 2017, 06:20:43 PM
Plus it isn't actually a mental illness, so there's that.

Believing and pretending to be something you are not is not a mental illness?

So if this guy

(http://images.amcnetworks.com/ifc.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/marathon-wilfred-online-original-australian-ifc-free.jpg)

Was real and really believed he was a dog and dressed like this ....... he would not be mentally ill?
Title: Re: no more trangenders in the military
Post by: 80sBaby on July 27, 2017, 06:48:49 PM
Yes he would. A psychological state is considered a "mental disorder" only if it causes significant distress or disability. Most transgenders don't consider their gender to be distressing or disabling.

The man in your pic WOULD be disabled since, as a dog, he wouldn't be able to function in life as a normal human being does. Nice try though. Maybe you should research this subject more so you don't sound so ignorant next time it comes up?
Title: Re: no more trangenders in the military
Post by: Regar on July 27, 2017, 07:58:33 PM
Yes he would. A psychological state is considered a "mental disorder" only if it causes significant distress or disability. Most transgenders don't consider their gender to be distressing or disabling.

The man in your pic WOULD be disabled since, as a dog, he wouldn't be able to function in life as a normal human being does.

And a man pretending to be a woman could not really be a woman ....... he would not get periods ........ nor develop natural breast ....... or worry about getting pregnant ..... or any of the multitude of things a woman does.

I could "identify" as an Asian or black or Samoan ..... does not make me really that.
Title: Re: no more trangenders in the military
Post by: Regar on July 27, 2017, 08:00:21 PM
Maybe you should research this subject more so you don't sound so ignorant next time it comes up?

I will leave the tranny research to you ........ common sense tells me that a man cannot be a woman ...... no matter how much he wishes.
Title: Re: no more trangenders in the military
Post by: MTL76 on July 27, 2017, 08:32:57 PM
Yes he would. A psychological state is considered a "mental disorder" only if it causes significant distress or disability.

As a general point of order, the DSM-IV itself admits that these definitions are quite fuzzy. It states that "...although this manual provides a classification of mental disorders, it must be admitted that no definition adequately specifies precise boundaries for the concept of ‘mental disorder.’"

That's what happens when you have psychiatrists trying to describe the output of an organ (the brain) that is far more complex than we can presently understand.
Title: Re: no more trangenders in the military
Post by: NeoGreenLantern on July 27, 2017, 08:34:36 PM
Maybe you should research this subject more so you don't sound so ignorant next time it comes up?

I will leave the tranny research to you ........ common sense tells me that a man cannot be a woman ...... no matter how much he wishes.

Let's say I agree with you. How does that prevent them from doing the job of a military service person. If someone with Asperger's can do the job as long as they prove competent at it then why shouldnt someone who is transgender?
Title: Re: no more trangenders in the military
Post by: 80sBaby on July 27, 2017, 08:54:35 PM
Maybe you should research this subject more so you don't sound so ignorant next time it comes up?

I will leave the tranny research to you ........ common sense tells me that a man cannot be a woman ...... no matter how much he wishes.

Willful ignorance it is then.
Title: Re: no more trangenders in the military
Post by: Thorne on July 27, 2017, 09:04:07 PM
yeah get them out of the military i dont want them gettin killed in some stupid war with russia or china
Title: Re: no more trangenders in the military
Post by: Propeus The Fallen on July 28, 2017, 08:44:26 AM
So...it's a draft dodging coward telling brave people they can't serve their country. :)
Title: Re: no more trangenders in the military
Post by: Regar on July 29, 2017, 03:10:39 PM
Let's say I agree with you. How does that prevent them from doing the job of a military service person. If someone with Asperger's can do the job as long as they prove competent at it then why shouldnt someone who is transgender?

Because someone who has Transgendia cannot separate fantasy from reality ........ they live in a world where up is down and boy is girl.

Would you want someone with alzheimers or dementia working in the military?
Title: Re: no more trangenders in the military
Post by: NeoGreenLantern on July 29, 2017, 03:20:55 PM
Can you give me an example of how where someone's gender identity effect their ability to perform their military duties?
Title: Re: no more trangenders in the military
Post by: Regar on July 29, 2017, 04:03:23 PM
Can you give me an example of how where someone's gender identity effect their ability to perform their military duties?

No more than you could assure me that it would not.

Its all opinion.
Title: Re: no more trangenders in the military
Post by: Riv1 on July 29, 2017, 04:07:55 PM
Can you give me an example of how where someone's gender identity effect their ability to perform their military duties?

No more than you could assure me that it would not.

Its all opinion.
Who's burden of proof on here?
That seems to flip flop thread to thread.





I broke Scourge. Poor Scourge.
Title: Re: no more trangenders in the military
Post by: 80sBaby on July 29, 2017, 04:21:57 PM
The burden of proof would be on those claiming there's a danger, since transgenders have and are serving, yet there's been no real issues. Otherwise it's asking to prove a negative.

As stated, even the Pentagon doesn't see a real problem to be addressed. So where is regar getting his opinion from?
Title: Re: no more trangenders in the military
Post by: NeoGreenLantern on July 29, 2017, 04:23:38 PM
Well the only claim I've made so far is that mental illness/disorders isn't an automatic disqualification for serving and gave examples.

Regar has claimed that

Transgender people is a mental disorder
Transgender people can't separate reality from fantasy
Transgender people aren't mentally capable of functioning in the military

He has not provided any examples to back his claims.

If needed I can provide evidence to support my examples and also examples of Transgender people who are active in the military and have shown to perform their jobs without an issue.
Title: Re: no more trangenders in the military
Post by: MTL76 on July 29, 2017, 04:42:47 PM
Both the Army and Marine Corps have asked for a one to two year delay in accepting new transgendered troops, so I'm not sure Trump has come up with this policy on his own.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2017/06/08/services-facing-july-1-deadline-ask-more-time-develop-transgender-policy/102645928/ (https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2017/06/08/services-facing-july-1-deadline-ask-more-time-develop-transgender-policy/102645928/)

Title: Re: no more trangenders in the military
Post by: Riv1 on July 30, 2017, 01:06:22 AM
The burden of proof would be on those claiming there's a danger, since transgenders have and are serving, yet there's been no real issues. Otherwise it's asking to prove a negative.

As stated, even the Pentagon doesn't see a real problem to be addressed. So where is regar getting his opinion from?
Thank you.
I thought there was something hinky here.





I broke Scourge. Poor Scourge.
Title: Re: no more trangenders in the military
Post by: Animalia on July 31, 2017, 10:48:01 AM
When I was under military service there were some gay guys,I never did meet transgender people.
I dont think the problem is how good they be in their but how much comrades can accept them.
Title: Re: no more trangenders in the military
Post by: Riv1 on July 31, 2017, 06:24:02 PM
When I was under military service there were some gay guys,I never did meet transgender people.
I dont think the problem is how good they be in their but how much comrades can accept them.
Same here, and yeah, its not them that'd be the problem.





I broke Scourge. Poor Scourge.
Title: Re: no more trangenders in the military
Post by: NeoGreenLantern on July 31, 2017, 06:44:36 PM
and consider that from any other perspective. Imagine a Japanese dude being told he can't have a job and the problem being some people he will work with don't like the Japanese and not his ability to do the job.
Title: Re: no more trangenders in the military
Post by: Mightily Oats on August 01, 2017, 02:38:07 AM
Transgenders have all the luck
Title: Re: no more trangenders in the military
Post by: Propeus The Fallen on August 01, 2017, 04:18:44 AM
and consider that from any other perspective. Imagine a Japanese dude being told he can't have a job and the problem being some people he will work with don't like the Japanese and not his ability to do the job.

Give Donald time. I'm sure he's going to get everyone. :)
Title: Re: no more trangenders in the military
Post by: Regar on August 02, 2017, 08:31:12 AM
Wow ...... did not know this board was filled with so many hipster new male lady boys.

 ;)
Title: Re: no more trangenders in the military
Post by: Thorne on August 02, 2017, 11:02:36 AM
get with the program
Title: Re: no more trangenders in the military
Post by: NeoGreenLantern on August 02, 2017, 03:37:18 PM
Wow ...... did not know this board was filled with so many hipster new male lady boys.

 ;)

You should probably read the rules for the debate forum.
Title: Re: no more trangenders in the military
Post by: Regar on August 02, 2017, 10:12:23 PM
Matt Walsh: Liberal science: a pregnant woman is a man but the human in her womb isn’t a person

https://www.theblaze.com/contributions/matt-walsh-liberal-science-a-pregnant-woman-is-a-man-but-the-human-in-her-womb-isnt-a-person/ (https://www.theblaze.com/contributions/matt-walsh-liberal-science-a-pregnant-woman-is-a-man-but-the-human-in-her-womb-isnt-a-person/)
Title: Re: no more trangenders in the military
Post by: NeoGreenLantern on August 02, 2017, 10:22:59 PM
What does that have to do with the topic?
Title: Re: no more trangenders in the military
Post by: scourge on August 10, 2017, 12:11:16 AM
I broke Scourge. Poor Scourge.

Riv, are you flaming me? In the debate forum? Bad move, hot shot.
Title: Re: no more trangenders in the military
Post by: Red Exodus on August 10, 2017, 02:28:53 AM
That's been his sig for awhile now.
Title: Re: no more trangenders in the military
Post by: Kallor on August 10, 2017, 03:14:05 AM
I have sigs turned off and it still shows for me.
Title: Re: no more trangenders in the military
Post by: scourge on August 10, 2017, 06:21:54 AM
I have sigs turned off as well. It's not a sig. He's posting that. He actively is typing it in. every. single. time.
Title: Re: no more trangenders in the military
Post by: NeoGreenLantern on August 10, 2017, 12:48:23 PM
Pretty much. So technically its not a signature. This is a weird gray area. I will let Xer decide how to handle it.
Title: Re: no more trangenders in the military
Post by: MTL76 on August 10, 2017, 02:46:17 PM
I have sigs turned off as well. It's not a sig. He's posting that. He actively is typing it in. every. single. time.

Hahaha HOF this fucker.
Title: Re: no more trangenders in the military
Post by: Regar on August 10, 2017, 03:56:47 PM
I have sigs turned off as well. It's not a sig. He's posting that. He actively is typing it in. every. single. time.

 ;D

That is great .........
Title: Re: no more trangenders in the military
Post by: XerxesTWD on August 10, 2017, 04:27:04 PM
Yeah, he can leave the manually entered signature at the door in this forum moving forward. He can keep it everywhere else.
Title: Re: no more trangenders in the military
Post by: Red Exodus on August 10, 2017, 08:24:54 PM
I have sigs turned off as well. It's not a sig. He's posting that. He actively is typing it in. every. single. time.

Its probably something he's got copy pasted. Otherwise, it'd be sad as hell to manually type
that every. single. time.
Title: Re: no more trangenders in the military
Post by: scourge on August 10, 2017, 08:34:01 PM
It's sad as hell either way
Title: Re: no more trangenders in the military
Post by: Animalia on August 11, 2017, 07:43:48 AM
I have sigs turned off as well. It's not a sig. He's posting that. He actively is typing it in. every. single. time.
IIrc it's some week he has that sig,and if not wrong you quoted him sonewhere in the past.
Didnt you notice it?
Title: Re: no more trangenders in the military
Post by: scourge on August 11, 2017, 09:32:22 AM
Not sure the full scope of the question, but if I'm reading the question right, I've noticed. His whole schtick is to get me to notice him. Hence manually entering it bc putting it in his sig the usual way, one has the option to not see it. Not what he's after.
Title: Re: no more trangenders in the military
Post by: Animalia on August 11, 2017, 04:55:50 PM
Not sure the full scope of the question, but if I'm reading the question right, I've noticed. His whole schtick is to get me to notice him. Hence manually entering it bc putting it in his sig the usual way, one has the option to not see it. Not what he's after.
Scourge,my english sucks(and I'm not joking here)as it's not my first or second language.
I dont know what he's after or what would his main goal be,I'm just pointing out it has been several week he's been  posting that "sig" abd many user have quoted it.
Title: Re: no more trangenders in the military
Post by: scourge on August 11, 2017, 05:23:44 PM
Oh yeah, it's been addressed before. Not by him of course, but by myself and others. When he does it in this forum tho, that is an automatic ban for him. Basically means he'll never post in this forum again, so at least we've got that going for us. Which is nice.
Title: Re: no more trangenders in the military
Post by: Riv1 on August 12, 2017, 07:11:13 PM
and consider that from any other perspective. Imagine a Japanese dude being told he can't have a job and the problem being some people he will work with don't like the Japanese and not his ability to do the job.
Ah, so his being denied employment is essentially 'for his own good'.
Why go for a job thats going to be a hostile environment, nevermind that it might be better paying than what he currently has, when he can stick with something safe.
Something that keeps him at the exact same level he's always been.
Thats some care salesman logic.
Very slick.
Title: Re: no more trangenders in the military
Post by: scourge on August 12, 2017, 07:18:23 PM
TFW you've played yer internet troll like a damn violin
Title: Re: no more trangenders in the military
Post by: Riv1 on August 12, 2017, 07:19:30 PM
What does that have to do with the topic?
Title: Re: no more trangenders in the military
Post by: scourge on August 12, 2017, 07:22:40 PM
You keep going, Riv, I'm done here