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Comic Forums => ICT => Topic started by: AP on May 11, 2017, 05:44:29 AM

Title: Robert Downey Jr Sherlock vs Netflix Punisher
Post by: AP on May 11, 2017, 05:44:29 AM
Hand to hand only.  Who wins?
Title: Re: Robert Downey Jr Sherlock vs Netflix Punisher
Post by: Almighty Tallest on May 11, 2017, 10:28:54 AM
Holmes-a-vision is a legitimate power. I see him picking Castle's defense and offense apart before he makes a move that takes him down.
Title: Re: Robert Downey Jr Sherlock vs Netflix Punisher
Post by: g-train on May 11, 2017, 01:02:02 PM
Yeah should be "Holmes-Vision" vs "Cho-Vision"

But this might be a brief fight, Netflix-Punisher has skill in his own right and a size advantage, and an age advantage but I can't see it not going RDJ-Sherlock's way 9/10.

Title: Re: Robert Downey Jr Sherlock vs Netflix Punisher
Post by: LiquidSailor on May 11, 2017, 01:54:29 PM
He's only an inch taller than Downey.
Title: Re: Robert Downey Jr Sherlock vs Netflix Punisher
Post by: g-train on May 11, 2017, 02:22:19 PM
He's only an inch taller than Downey.

Huh; thought RDJ was shorter than that.

So after that I was thinking; well maybe he has a muscle or weight advantage.

Nope; RDJ's 170 lbs vs Bernthal's 165 lbs....

So I was thinking well how big is Charlie Cox/Daredevil; a little over 5"8 and around 174 lbs apparently.

It was like wait; seriously, he's the bulkiest of the three?

Color me surprised.

Thought he was shrimp.

Title: Re: Robert Downey Jr Sherlock vs Netflix Punisher
Post by: g-train on May 11, 2017, 02:37:15 PM
Though apparently the 170 lbs weight was his iron man weight and his Sherlock wait was around 153 lbs.

So okay; N-Pun does have around a 20 lb size advantage.

Title: Re: Robert Downey Jr Sherlock vs Netflix Punisher
Post by: Almighty Tallest on May 11, 2017, 02:39:57 PM
I don't see him getting past Holmes ability to pick apart everything about him in a split second and figure out how to take him down in the same span of time.
Title: Re: Robert Downey Jr Sherlock vs Netflix Punisher
Post by: g-train on May 11, 2017, 04:42:54 PM
I don't see him getting past Holmes ability to pick apart everything about him in a split second and figure out how to take him down in the same span of time.

Pretty much.
Title: Re: Robert Downey Jr Sherlock vs Netflix Punisher
Post by: GeneralPresidentSkeletor on May 15, 2017, 04:05:51 PM
...except that was Net. Pun's plan THE WHOLE TIME and then he gets the drop on Sherlock with a well-placed (and by well placed, I mean hidden in some part of his anatomy) shiv.
Title: Re: Robert Downey Jr Sherlock vs Netflix Punisher
Post by: HalloweenJack on May 15, 2017, 07:37:39 PM
I gotta go with Frank here. I just don't see Sherlock beating him
Title: Re: Robert Downey Jr Sherlock vs Netflix Punisher
Post by: MTL76 on May 15, 2017, 07:50:25 PM
There is no fucking way Punisher is going to be able to conceal a weapon from Holmes.
Title: Re: Robert Downey Jr Sherlock vs Netflix Punisher
Post by: AP on May 15, 2017, 07:52:17 PM
He concealed a weapon from Daredevil.
Title: Re: Robert Downey Jr Sherlock vs Netflix Punisher
Post by: MTL76 on May 15, 2017, 10:10:23 PM
Holmes ability to observe things relies on completely different cues than Daredevil, and is just as superhuman. What the fuck is this Punisher jabroni going to do?
Title: Re: Robert Downey Jr Sherlock vs Netflix Punisher
Post by: Almighty Tallest on May 15, 2017, 10:13:29 PM
Holmes will definitely notice something strange about how Punisher moves. Like he's concealing something. He'll deduce it's a weapon and either take it out of play or make it so Frank can't use it. It's a literal super-power as defined by the creators. Moriarty even had his own version in the sequel and they used it on each other at the same time.
Title: Re: Robert Downey Jr Sherlock vs Netflix Punisher
Post by: AP on May 15, 2017, 10:27:52 PM
Holmes ability to observe things relies on completely different cues than Daredevil, and is just as superhuman. What the fuck is this Punisher jabroni going to do?

Matt can smell cologne three floors up, hear a whisper during a gunfight, feel an electric current in the air, and knows what's behind closed doors.  Holmes' senses are crazy good, but they are in no way as superhuman as Daredevil's.
Title: Re: Robert Downey Jr Sherlock vs Netflix Punisher
Post by: Almighty Tallest on May 15, 2017, 10:35:16 PM
Holmes ability to observe things relies on completely different cues than Daredevil, and is just as superhuman. What the fuck is this Punisher jabroni going to do?

Matt can smell cologne three floors up, hear a whisper during a gunfight, feel an electric current in the air, and knows what's behind closed doors.  Holmes' senses are crazy good, but they are in no way as superhuman as Daredevil's.

However Punisher did manage to hide a weapon from him. His senses can be overloaded. And with no heartbeats from the Hand, he was less than worthless. His powers can be tricked or circumvented. How does Punisher make Holmes-avision suddenly not notice everything about him and give Holmes an instant way to win?

He's like Victorian Era Midnighter.


But OP says this is h2h only so this whole sub-argument is moot.

No way Punisher beats Sherlock in a fist fight.
Title: Re: Robert Downey Jr Sherlock vs Netflix Punisher
Post by: AP on May 15, 2017, 10:47:17 PM
However Punisher did manage to hide a weapon from him.
Which is why it's impressive.

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His senses can be overloaded. And with no heartbeats from the Hand, he was less than worthless.
He listened to their breathing and the sound of their swords and did just fine.

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His powers can be tricked or circumvented. How does Punisher make Holmes-avision suddenly not notice everything about him and give Holmes an instant way to win?
The same way he did it to Daredevil without ever knowing DD had powers.

Keep in mind, Holmes was taken off guard a few times in the movies.  For instance, he didn't expect that gypsy chick to throw a knife and stab the assassin when they were at the casino. 

Also, the big dude in the first movie had him on the run due to just being a big dude that was hard to hurt.  He wasn't invincible.

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He's like Victorian Era Midnighter.
That's a bit of an exaggeration.  He was able to figure out the moves of random mooks or that pit fighter.  We hardly saw him go up against a skilled fighter besides Moriarty (who was dangerous because he had Holmes' deductive skills, otherwise, he was just a boxing champ).

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But OP says this is h2h only so this whole sub-argument is moot.
I know this because I am the OP.
Title: Re: Robert Downey Jr Sherlock vs Netflix Punisher
Post by: MTL76 on May 15, 2017, 10:48:24 PM
Holmes ability to observe things relies on completely different cues than Daredevil, and is just as superhuman. What the fuck is this Punisher jabroni going to do?

Matt can smell cologne three floors up, hear a whisper during a gunfight, feel an electric current in the air, and knows what's behind closed doors.  Holmes' senses are crazy good, but they are in no way as superhuman as Daredevil's.

I'm not talking about Holmes's senses, I'm talking about his ability to glance at Punisher and the environment around them and immediately deduce whether Punisher has a weapon, any old injuries Holmes can exploit, any environmental emploits Holmes can use, etc. Punisher might be able to hide a weapon from Daredevil but Holmes's "powers" work differently, and I doubt Punisher can conceal anything from him.
Title: Re: Robert Downey Jr Sherlock vs Netflix Punisher
Post by: Almighty Tallest on May 15, 2017, 10:54:08 PM
^ This is the point I was making.

Yes Holmesavision has limits, but Punisher is not beyond those limits. For example, while he didn't expect her to throw the knife, that was only because he didn't take her into account. She was an outside variable he didn't factor into the fight so she took him off guard. In a 1v1 with just him and Frank, there's nothing else that can mess it up for his benefit or otherwise. Because he's shown whenever he involves someone or something, it works just fine.

Yeah he had problems with the 6'11, 350lb man who was basically a walking wall. Because he was simply too tough for Holmes to really do anything to. Punisher is tough, but his bones break and ligaments tear like a normal person. And he's got loooots of old wounds Holmes will figure out.
Title: Re: Robert Downey Jr Sherlock vs Netflix Punisher
Post by: AP on May 15, 2017, 11:44:39 PM
I'm not talking about Holmes's senses, I'm talking about his ability to glance at Punisher and the environment around them and immediately deduce whether Punisher has a weapon
So can Daredevil.  It didn't stop Frank from surprising him.

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any old injuries Holmes can exploit, any environmental emploits Holmes can use, etc.
And Frank won't be able to do the same?  If he hurts Holmes, he would continue to use Holmes' wound against him (The Moriarty fight shows that Holmes knows if he's wounded, his deductive abilities will only keep him in the game so long before he loses).  The same goes for using the environment against him, which Frank absolutely does in a number of fights.

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Punisher might be able to hide a weapon from Daredevil but Holmes's "powers" work differently, and I doubt Punisher can conceal anything from him.

Like I said, Daredevil's senses are far beyond Holmes' deductive ability.  For starters, Holmes actually has to be in the area to use it.  Matt doesn't.
Title: Re: Robert Downey Jr Sherlock vs Netflix Punisher
Post by: AP on May 15, 2017, 11:53:14 PM
Yes Holmesavision has limits, but Punisher is not beyond those limits. For example, while he didn't expect her to throw the knife, that was only because he didn't take her into account. She was an outside variable he didn't factor into the fight so she took him off guard.
And that shows he isn't perfect and can't always take everything into account in the spur of the moment.  He's not a Jedi.  He doesn't have precog or anything.

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In a 1v1 with just him and Frank, there's nothing else that can mess it up for his benefit or otherwise. Because he's shown whenever he involves someone or something, it works just fine.
He has had problems in one on one fights even with it working.

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Yeah he had problems with the 6'11, 350lb man who was basically a walking wall. Because he was simply too tough for Holmes to really do anything to. Punisher is tough, but his bones break and ligaments tear like a normal person.
That big French dude also had bones to break and ligaments to tear.  It's not like he was a superhuman.  He was just a tough dude.

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And he's got loooots of old wounds Holmes will figure out.
Like what?  He got tortured, but he still recovered well enough to kill an entire cell block full of prisoners, take a beating form Kingpin, and was still on his feet well enough to take down former special ops in an ambush.  Holmes' had a nasty stab wound that he almost died from in the second movie that put him at a disadvantage in a fight (this coming from Holmes himself).  If we're talking about damage soak, Frank is leagues beyond Holmes and if we're talking about exploiting old wounds, we know for a fact Holmes has them.
Title: Re: Robert Downey Jr Sherlock vs Netflix Punisher
Post by: MTL76 on May 16, 2017, 12:55:38 AM
When I say old injury, I mean that Holmes will spot things like Frank ever so slightly favoring his left leg, so slightly that no one but Holmes could notice, and Holmes will deduce Frank had his right knee ACL reconstructed. He'll see the surgical scar on Frank's forearm where Frank's radius was plated, and will know that's a weak point. And so on.

Frank managing to conceal a weapon from Daredevil does not mean he can do so against Holmes. For all of Daredevil's super senses, he's still blind. Holmes's ability to make deductions has nothing to do with superhuman hearing or smell. His abilities are completely different from Daredevil's. In some situations, Daredevil's abilities are preferable. Trying to determine how many people are waiting to ambush him in the room next door. In other situations, Holmes's abilities are more advantageous, such as figuring out someone's occupation based on visual cues.

Holmes will take one look at Frank and know exactly what weapons he has hidden on him. That Daredevil is incapable of doing this is not very relevant.
Title: Re: Robert Downey Jr Sherlock vs Netflix Punisher
Post by: AP on May 16, 2017, 01:07:24 AM
When I say old injury, I mean that Holmes will spot things like Frank ever so slightly favoring his left leg, so slightly that no one but Holmes could notice, and Holmes will deduce Frank had his right knee ACL reconstructed. He'll see the surgical scar on Frank's forearm where Frank's radius was plated, and will know that's a weak point. And so on.
Maybe.  I mean, Frank SHOULD be walking with a limp, but he doesn't.  It's just the way of the superhero genre.  Still, as I pointed out, Frank can soak up the damage if Holmes dishes it out.  Holmes cannot say the same as he admits in his Moriarty fight that exploiting his shoulder wound will eventually lead to his defeat.

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Frank managing to conceal a weapon from Daredevil does not mean he can do so against Holmes. For all of Daredevil's super senses, he's still blind. Holmes's ability to make deductions has nothing to do with superhuman hearing or smell. His abilities are completely different from Daredevil's. In some situations, Daredevil's abilities are preferable. Trying to determine how many people are waiting to ambush him in the room next door. In other situations, Holmes's abilities are more advantageous, such as figuring out someone's occupation based on visual cues.
We're not talking about solving a crime.  We're talking about a fistfight.  Daredevil's senses >>>>>>>>>>>>> Holmes' deductive ability when it comes to hth combat.

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Holmes will take one look at Frank and know exactly what weapons he has hidden on him. That Daredevil is incapable of doing this is not very relevant.
Except Daredevil has revealed hidden weapons on people in the past.
Title: Re: Robert Downey Jr Sherlock vs Netflix Punisher
Post by: MTL76 on May 16, 2017, 01:11:17 AM
Except Daredevil has revealed hidden weapons on people in the past.

That's great. Holmes is better at it than Daredevil. Daredevil is still blind, and misses out on the thousands of visual cues per second that Holmes is analyzing.
Title: Re: Robert Downey Jr Sherlock vs Netflix Punisher
Post by: Master on May 16, 2017, 04:40:12 PM
Holmes was stalemated by an Asian martial artist henchman at the end of the first movie, requiring help (I think someone shot the henchman).

So if you are skilled enough, Holmes can't beat you. And if you're strong enough, Holmes can't beat you.

Punisher may not be as strong as the French giant or as skilled as the Asian henchman, but I think he has a good combo of both traits to win this.
Title: Re: Robert Downey Jr Sherlock vs Netflix Punisher
Post by: AP on May 16, 2017, 05:23:30 PM
Except Daredevil has revealed hidden weapons on people in the past.

That's great. Holmes is better at it than Daredevil. Daredevil is still blind, and misses out on the thousands of visual cues per second that Holmes is analyzing.

If we're talking about solving a crime, sure.  In a fistfight, Daredevil's senses are more beneficial.  When has Holmes plucked an arrow out of the air, dodged without having to turn around, or taken down zombie ninjas by listening to their breath?
Title: Re: Robert Downey Jr Sherlock vs Netflix Punisher
Post by: MTL76 on May 16, 2017, 05:49:51 PM
If we're talking about solving a crime, sure.  In a fistfight, Daredevil's senses are more beneficial.  When has Holmes plucked an arrow out of the air, dodged without having to turn around, or taken down zombie ninjas by listening to their breath?

This tangent we've gone off on was about how Punisher wouldn't be able to conceal a weapon against Holmes, even though he was able to do so against Daredevil. Which is pretty moot, since this is a H2H fight, but this this the Schweppervescence that make Herochat what it is.

As for Holmes vs. Daredevil in a H2H fight, that's a bull for another rodeo, kemosabe.
Title: Re: Robert Downey Jr Sherlock vs Netflix Punisher
Post by: AP on May 16, 2017, 05:53:28 PM
Holmes was stalemated by an Asian martial artist henchman at the end of the first movie, requiring help (I think someone shot the henchman).

So if you are skilled enough, Holmes can't beat you. And if you're strong enough, Holmes can't beat you.

Punisher may not be as strong as the French giant or as skilled as the Asian henchman, but I think he has a good combo of both traits to win this.

Yeah, Irene shot a guy who was beating Holmes, iirc.  The acrobatic assassin at the beginning of the second movie was also giving Holmes trouble, although he did beat him eventually.

Here's the fight with the big French guy for clarity.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-t1a4anQxBA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-t1a4anQxBA)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ulh7uJDsaw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ulh7uJDsaw)

The villain at the end of the first movie stood up to Holmes fairly well and he didn't seem to have much skill beyond fencing.  Sure, he was a criminal mastermind but he didn't have Holmes' deductive ability or anything.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qi7ZOWoY9ac (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qi7ZOWoY9ac)
Title: Re: Robert Downey Jr Sherlock vs Netflix Punisher
Post by: AP on May 16, 2017, 05:55:37 PM
If we're talking about solving a crime, sure.  In a fistfight, Daredevil's senses are more beneficial.  When has Holmes plucked an arrow out of the air, dodged without having to turn around, or taken down zombie ninjas by listening to their breath?

This tangent we've gone off on was about how Punisher wouldn't be able to conceal a weapon against Holmes, even though he was able to do so against Daredevil. Which is pretty moot, since this is a H2H fight, but this this the Schweppervescence that make Herochat what it is.

As for Holmes vs. Daredevil in a H2H fight, that's a bull for another rodeo, kemosabe.

Yeah, the weapons thing is a moot point, but I think it's worth noting that Punisher can still hang with a guy like Daredevil and even surprise him in a fight.
Title: Re: Robert Downey Jr Sherlock vs Netflix Punisher
Post by: g-train on May 16, 2017, 07:59:25 PM
If we're talking about solving a crime, sure.  In a fistfight, Daredevil's senses are more beneficial.  When has Holmes plucked an arrow out of the air, dodged without having to turn around, or taken down zombie ninjas by listening to their breath?

This tangent we've gone off on was about how Punisher wouldn't be able to conceal a weapon against Holmes, even though he was able to do so against Daredevil. Which is pretty moot, since this is a H2H fight, but this this the Schweppervescence that make Herochat what it is.

As for Holmes vs. Daredevil in a H2H fight, that's a bull for another rodeo, kemosabe.

Yeah, the weapons thing is a moot point, but I think it's worth noting that Punisher can still hang with a guy like Daredevil and even surprise him in a fight.

Honestly; sounds more like a bad day for Daredevil.

If frank "knew" before hand that Daredevil had superhuman senses and had it hidden "extra" good I could buy it.

But he just "happened" to have a weapon hidden so well that a guy with Superhuman senses couldn't detect it?

Title: Re: Robert Downey Jr Sherlock vs Netflix Punisher
Post by: g-train on May 16, 2017, 08:12:03 PM
Wasn't Holmes usings his "predicto-vision" to avoid getting hit by bullets and mortar fire "and" fight soldiers all at the same time when he was running through the forest?

Not only is that not in the same area, that's "not even looking" at the guys doing the firing of the bullets or mortar shells.

Holmes's "predicto-vision" is not quite precog and takes "maybe" half a second or less for it to be useful.

Even sans using it he's still good enough to fight four guys all bigger than him, one strong enough to hold him against his will up against a wall with one hand.

Though before using it he ended up on the losing end here against those four.

Off-hand; did he even bother using it against that assassin guy?

Really; that's probably one of his exploitable flaws here, like against that boxer, he didn't bother using it until the end of the fight, sure he took him apart like a cheap watch but against someone like Net-Pun that's a pretty big chance to take.


Title: Re: Robert Downey Jr Sherlock vs Netflix Punisher
Post by: Master on May 16, 2017, 09:32:13 PM
If we're talking about solving a crime, sure.  In a fistfight, Daredevil's senses are more beneficial.  When has Holmes plucked an arrow out of the air, dodged without having to turn around, or taken down zombie ninjas by listening to their breath?

This tangent we've gone off on was about how Punisher wouldn't be able to conceal a weapon against Holmes, even though he was able to do so against Daredevil. Which is pretty moot, since this is a H2H fight, but this this the Schweppervescence that make Herochat what it is.

As for Holmes vs. Daredevil in a H2H fight, that's a bull for another rodeo, kemosabe.

Yeah, the weapons thing is a moot point, but I think it's worth noting that Punisher can still hang with a guy like Daredevil and even surprise him in a fight.

Honestly; sounds more like a bad day for Daredevil.

If frank "knew" before hand that Daredevil had superhuman senses and had it hidden "extra" good I could buy it.

But he just "happened" to have a weapon hidden so well that a guy with Superhuman senses couldn't detect it?

Matt later commented he made a mistake.
Title: Re: Robert Downey Jr Sherlock vs Netflix Punisher
Post by: MTL76 on May 16, 2017, 09:45:20 PM
In Daredevil's defense, it's not like he ever claimed to be Batman.
Title: Re: Robert Downey Jr Sherlock vs Netflix Punisher
Post by: AP on May 16, 2017, 11:37:02 PM
Wasn't Holmes usings his "predicto-vision" to avoid getting hit by bullets and mortar fire "and" fight soldiers all at the same time when he was running through the forest?

No.  That sequence was in slow motion, but he wasn't predicting gunshots or anything.

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Even sans using it he's still good enough to fight four guys all bigger than him, one strong enough to hold him against his will up against a wall with one hand.

Though before using it he ended up on the losing end here against those four.

I think Punisher stabbing his way through a narrow corridor while locked in prison was more impressive than taking down four street thugs.

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Off-hand; did he even bother using it against that assassin guy?

Yes.  He knew the guy was above and had a plan to yank him down and take him out.  Nomi Rapace's character hit the guy with a couple of knives, which surprised Holmes.  The assassin got up and led him through a prolonged chase/fight, which seems to show that Holmes' plans wouldn't quite have worked out as well he expected.
Title: Re: Robert Downey Jr Sherlock vs Netflix Punisher
Post by: AP on May 16, 2017, 11:39:05 PM
If we're talking about solving a crime, sure.  In a fistfight, Daredevil's senses are more beneficial.  When has Holmes plucked an arrow out of the air, dodged without having to turn around, or taken down zombie ninjas by listening to their breath?

This tangent we've gone off on was about how Punisher wouldn't be able to conceal a weapon against Holmes, even though he was able to do so against Daredevil. Which is pretty moot, since this is a H2H fight, but this this the Schweppervescence that make Herochat what it is.

As for Holmes vs. Daredevil in a H2H fight, that's a bull for another rodeo, kemosabe.

Yeah, the weapons thing is a moot point, but I think it's worth noting that Punisher can still hang with a guy like Daredevil and even surprise him in a fight.

Honestly; sounds more like a bad day for Daredevil.

If frank "knew" before hand that Daredevil had superhuman senses and had it hidden "extra" good I could buy it.

But he just "happened" to have a weapon hidden so well that a guy with Superhuman senses couldn't detect it?

Frank didn't know Matt had enhanced senses until a few episodes later.  My point is that Frank can be unpredictable to a person who has a particular powerset that makes them very hard to surprise.
Title: Re: Robert Downey Jr Sherlock vs Netflix Punisher
Post by: g-train on May 17, 2017, 03:25:02 PM
If we're talking about solving a crime, sure.  In a fistfight, Daredevil's senses are more beneficial.  When has Holmes plucked an arrow out of the air, dodged without having to turn around, or taken down zombie ninjas by listening to their breath?

This tangent we've gone off on was about how Punisher wouldn't be able to conceal a weapon against Holmes, even though he was able to do so against Daredevil. Which is pretty moot, since this is a H2H fight, but this this the Schweppervescence that make Herochat what it is.

As for Holmes vs. Daredevil in a H2H fight, that's a bull for another rodeo, kemosabe.

Yeah, the weapons thing is a moot point, but I think it's worth noting that Punisher can still hang with a guy like Daredevil and even surprise him in a fight.

Honestly; sounds more like a bad day for Daredevil.

If frank "knew" before hand that Daredevil had superhuman senses and had it hidden "extra" good I could buy it.

But he just "happened" to have a weapon hidden so well that a guy with Superhuman senses couldn't detect it?

Frank didn't know Matt had enhanced senses until a few episodes later.  My point is that Frank can be unpredictable to a person who has a particular powerset that makes them very hard to surprise.

Well; sounds more like a bad day for DD than a good one for Frank.

Hell; even Daredevil admitted he made a mistake.
Title: Re: Robert Downey Jr Sherlock vs Netflix Punisher
Post by: AP on May 17, 2017, 05:53:03 PM
Well; sounds more like a bad day for DD than a good one for Frank.

Hell; even Daredevil admitted he made a mistake.

Frank was still able to give Daredevil a great deal of trouble every other time they fought and surprise him in some form or another, so not really.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KLjHNJ0tyiY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KLjHNJ0tyiY) (surprises Matt with a concealed gun)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kN59PQvvWQE&t=7s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kN59PQvvWQE&t=7s) (surprises Matt by taking his weapon and later, bodyslamming him through a skyline)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iKKisCInbNQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iKKisCInbNQ) (surprises Matt by setting up a fight with the biker gang and, while it's not in this clip, escapes while Matt is fighting the last bikers a few yards away)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9PfDqMQ0Lms (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9PfDqMQ0Lms) (surprises Matt by knocking over the side of the boat)
Title: Re: Robert Downey Jr Sherlock vs Netflix Punisher
Post by: AP on May 17, 2017, 08:10:28 PM
Also, Frank also had his own Big Guy to fight.  Like Holmes, he doesn't win the fight, but he gives Kingpin a better fistfight than Holmes gave the Frenchman (and I would put Fisk above the French guy for what it's worth).  Keep in mind, Punisher was handcuffed in this fight and had just gone through an entire hallway full of prisoners trying to stab him to death.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sbXe_232NsM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sbXe_232NsM)
Title: Re: Robert Downey Jr Sherlock vs Netflix Punisher
Post by: g-train on May 18, 2017, 01:28:34 PM
Also, Frank also had his own Big Guy to fight.  Like Holmes, he doesn't win the fight, but he gives Kingpin a better fistfight than Holmes gave the Frenchman (and I would put Fisk above the French guy for what it's worth).  Keep in mind, Punisher was handcuffed in this fight and had just gone through an entire hallway full of prisoners trying to stab him to death.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sbXe_232NsM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sbXe_232NsM)

Yeah but Holmes's big guy was practically Superhuman, Holmes was basically unable to affect him without using weapons like an iron pipe/bar and that old school taser device that sent him flying.

And sure Netflix-Fisk was pretty up there himself but not quite on that level.

With Holmes it almost seemed like they were verging on going cartoony with it for a second.
Title: Re: Robert Downey Jr Sherlock vs Netflix Punisher
Post by: g-train on May 18, 2017, 01:29:36 PM
Well; sounds more like a bad day for DD than a good one for Frank.

Hell; even Daredevil admitted he made a mistake.

Frank was still able to give Daredevil a great deal of trouble every other time they fought and surprise him in some form or another, so not really.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KLjHNJ0tyiY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KLjHNJ0tyiY) (surprises Matt with a concealed gun)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kN59PQvvWQE&t=7s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kN59PQvvWQE&t=7s) (surprises Matt by taking his weapon and later, bodyslamming him through a skyline)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iKKisCInbNQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iKKisCInbNQ) (surprises Matt by setting up a fight with the biker gang and, while it's not in this clip, escapes while Matt is fighting the last bikers a few yards away)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9PfDqMQ0Lms (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9PfDqMQ0Lms) (surprises Matt by knocking over the side of the boat)


So wait; Punisher was able to "surprise" DD with an entire biker gang?

This is just starting to seem like it's just not that hard to surprise Daredevil with stuff at this point.
Title: Re: Robert Downey Jr Sherlock vs Netflix Punisher
Post by: Not BAMF on May 18, 2017, 01:42:49 PM
Well he is a hero with super senses... who got suckered in season one by a bad guy whispering, causing him to lean in closer to hear him.

That scene always bugged me.
Title: Re: Robert Downey Jr Sherlock vs Netflix Punisher
Post by: AP on May 18, 2017, 05:55:21 PM
Yeah but Holmes's big guy was practically Superhuman, Holmes was basically unable to affect him without using weapons like an iron pipe/bar and that old school taser device that sent him flying.

And sure Netflix-Fisk was pretty up there himself but not quite on that level.

With Holmes it almost seemed like they were verging on going cartoony with it for a second.

Kingpin wasn't quite as cartoony, but he made up for it with skill and viciousness.  In that scene, Frank was fighting a guy who decapitated someone with a car door.  And, once again, he was handcuffed and has just gone through a brutal prison fight.  Holmes was completely unrestrained in his fight with the Frenchman, was fresh, and had access to weird devices around the lab.

This is just starting to seem like it's just not that hard to surprise Daredevil with stuff at this point.

By season 2, it is (as Bamf pointed out, season 1 Matt was a noob at times).  The only other people who managed to give Matt this much trouble were Hand ninjas.  The fact that not only did Frank beat Daredevil in their first encounter, he still managed to escape every other time they fought says a lot about the guy's ability to allude someone who has superhuman senses.
Title: Re: Robert Downey Jr Sherlock vs Netflix Punisher
Post by: Bandido on May 18, 2017, 07:24:30 PM
Holmes had trouble with Moriarty too, boxing champ Moriarty.
Title: Re: Robert Downey Jr Sherlock vs Netflix Punisher
Post by: AP on May 18, 2017, 07:53:24 PM
Holmes had trouble with Moriarty too, boxing champ Moriarty.

To be fair, Holmes was wounded, but it seems that, even without the wound, a boxing champ could conceivably give him some trouble.
Title: Re: Robert Downey Jr Sherlock vs Netflix Punisher
Post by: g-train on May 18, 2017, 10:34:02 PM
Holmes had trouble with Moriarty too, boxing champ Moriarty.

To be fair, Holmes was wounded, but it seems that, even without the wound, a boxing champ could conceivably give him some trouble.

That and Moriarity has the same kind of "predicto-vision" and genius Holmes did so he was hardly just a "boxing champion".

Title: Re: Robert Downey Jr Sherlock vs Netflix Punisher
Post by: AP on May 18, 2017, 11:18:02 PM
As far as learned skills go, he was just a boxing champion.
Title: Re: Robert Downey Jr Sherlock vs Netflix Punisher
Post by: Bandido on May 19, 2017, 02:23:31 AM
Holmes had trouble with Moriarty too, boxing champ Moriarty.

To be fair, Holmes was wounded, but it seems that, even without the wound, a boxing champ could conceivably give him some trouble.

I'm not dunking on boxing either, - There's a reason, "Puncher's chance" is a phrase associated with it. But Moriarty wasn't competing or in fighting shape.
Title: Re: Robert Downey Jr Sherlock vs Netflix Punisher
Post by: Registered Sex Offender on May 19, 2017, 02:33:09 AM
Just a couple of notes that weren't addressed:

1. When Holmes fought the Frenchmen, his computer brain did not account for a bar in the way of his attack with his weapon, which allowed the Frenchmen to gain the upper hand, Daredevil would not make that mistake.

2. At the end of the first movie Holmes was fighting a shoalin monk and did not defeat him on his own. In fact it could be argued that holmes was on the losing end of that fight. I would think Frank and Matt would handle that guy.
Title: Re: Robert Downey Jr Sherlock vs Netflix Punisher
Post by: AP on May 19, 2017, 02:50:24 AM
1. When Holmes fought the Frenchmen, his computer brain did not account for a bar in the way of his attack with his weapon, which allowed the Frenchmen to gain the upper hand, Daredevil would not make that mistake.

Exactly.  People thinking Holmes would have better spacial awareness than Daredevil are just silly.

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2. At the end of the first movie Holmes was fighting a shoalin monk and did not defeat him on his own. In fact it could be argued that holmes was on the losing end of that fight. I would think Frank and Matt would handle that guy.

That was brought up earlier.  He was beating Holmes, so he asked Irene to shoot him.  It was just a random martial arts dude, too.
Title: Re: Robert Downey Jr Sherlock vs Netflix Punisher
Post by: Registered Sex Offender on May 19, 2017, 12:05:35 PM
1. When Holmes fought the Frenchmen, his computer brain did not account for a bar in the way of his attack with his weapon, which allowed the Frenchmen to gain the upper hand, Daredevil would not make that mistake.

Exactly.  People thinking Holmes would have better spacial awareness than Daredevil are just silly.

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2. At the end of the first movie Holmes was fighting a shoalin monk and did not defeat him on his own. In fact it could be argued that holmes was on the losing end of that fight. I would think Frank and Matt would handle that guy.

That was brought up earlier.  He was beating Holmes, so he asked Irene to shoot him.  It was just a random martial arts dude, too.

Seems to me Holmes' computer brain is capable of keeping him as a skilled street leveler, without any formal training that is. Basically a replacement for formal training.  But when he fights someone with adept skills, it kinda washes out his fight calculations. 
Title: Re: Robert Downey Jr Sherlock vs Netflix Punisher
Post by: MTL76 on May 19, 2017, 12:28:04 PM
But Holmes is formally trained.
Title: Re: Robert Downey Jr Sherlock vs Netflix Punisher
Post by: g-train on May 19, 2017, 03:36:00 PM
1. When Holmes fought the Frenchmen, his computer brain did not account for a bar in the way of his attack with his weapon, which allowed the Frenchmen to gain the upper hand, Daredevil would not make that mistake.

Exactly.  People thinking Holmes would have better spacial awareness than Daredevil are just silly.

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2. At the end of the first movie Holmes was fighting a shoalin monk and did not defeat him on his own. In fact it could be argued that holmes was on the losing end of that fight. I would think Frank and Matt would handle that guy.

That was brought up earlier.  He was beating Holmes, so he asked Irene to shoot him.  It was just a random martial arts dude, too.

Seems to me Holmes' computer brain is capable of keeping him as a skilled street leveler, without any formal training that is. Basically a replacement for formal training.  But when he fights someone with adept skills, it kinda washes out his fight calculations.

I don't think he started using his calculations until near the end with the "taser" on the big man.

As far as learned skills go, he was just a boxing champion.

A boxing champion with a genius that allowed him to operate on nigh on Precog levels.....hardly "just" a boxing champion.

By comparison; his fight against a "boxer" who was notably larger than him at the beginning of the movie only lasts for as long as he doesn't take it seriously.

The moment he did, even up against a guy with a good amount more muscle than him, it ends at just about that moment.

Holmes big problem is basically referenced with his fight against the Big Guy; he has a lot less of a tendency to actually "use" his predicto-vision/genius insight in a fight than you think he would.

Title: Re: Robert Downey Jr Sherlock vs Netflix Punisher
Post by: Registered Sex Offender on May 19, 2017, 05:06:10 PM
You should rewatch that fight. Its clear to me he was using it but didn't account for the obstacle in the way of his attack. 
Title: Re: Robert Downey Jr Sherlock vs Netflix Punisher
Post by: HalloweenJack on May 19, 2017, 05:39:59 PM
I'd also figure Holmes probably figured throwing the hammer at Dredger would hurt him too...but it didn't....meaning the man can make mistakes.
Title: Re: Robert Downey Jr Sherlock vs Netflix Punisher
Post by: Bandido on May 19, 2017, 06:15:41 PM
1. When Holmes fought the Frenchmen, his computer brain did not account for a bar in the way of his attack with his weapon, which allowed the Frenchmen to gain the upper hand, Daredevil would not make that mistake.

Exactly.  People thinking Holmes would have better spacial awareness than Daredevil are just silly.

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2. At the end of the first movie Holmes was fighting a shoalin monk and did not defeat him on his own. In fact it could be argued that holmes was on the losing end of that fight. I would think Frank and Matt would handle that guy.

That was brought up earlier.  He was beating Holmes, so he asked Irene to shoot him.  It was just a random martial arts dude, too.

Seems to me Holmes' computer brain is capable of keeping him as a skilled street leveler, without any formal training that is. Basically a replacement for formal training.  But when he fights someone with adept skills, it kinda washes out his fight calculations.

I don't think he started using his calculations until near the end with the "taser" on the big man.

As far as learned skills go, he was just a boxing champion.

A boxing champion with a genius that allowed him to operate on nigh on Precog levels.....hardly "just" a boxing champion.



Still old, out of shape and not competing
Title: Re: Robert Downey Jr Sherlock vs Netflix Punisher
Post by: AP on May 19, 2017, 07:16:20 PM
I don't think he started using his calculations until near the end with the "taser" on the big man.

Maybe but it was a desperation move as he was getting choked out and that thing was the only weapon in reach.

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A boxing champion with a genius that allowed him to operate on nigh on Precog levels.....hardly "just" a boxing champion.

In terms of his learned fighting skills, boxing was all he had, that was the point.  Moriarty being a genius with deductive abilities could only take him so far.  Using boxing moves, he would have gotten through Holmes' defenses to exploit his stab wound, showing that boxing skills can potentially give Holmes trouble.  I think it's safe to say that if Holmes didn't have a damaged shoulder, he would win in a fight, but it should be pointed out that Holmes would take note of someone with really good boxing skills as a potential threat in a fist fight.

Also, stop calling it precog.  They are insanely good at deduction, but they aren't seeing into the future or anything.

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By comparison; his fight against a "boxer" who was notably larger than him at the beginning of the movie only lasts for as long as he doesn't take it seriously.

That fighter got in a few good punches and on two occasions, pinned Holmes against the wall momentarily.  Holmes still won the fight, especially when it got serious, but a pit fighter can still get his hits in before going down.

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The moment he did, even up against a guy with a good amount more muscle than him, it ends at just about that moment.

Are you talking about the Frenchman?  I posted that fight in this thread, it's pretty long and the guy was clearly out of Holmes' league.

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Holmes big problem is basically referenced with his fight against the Big Guy; he has a lot less of a tendency to actually "use" his predicto-vision/genius insight in a fight than you think he would.

Which puts him at a disadvantage against Frank.
Title: Re: Robert Downey Jr Sherlock vs Netflix Punisher
Post by: g-train on May 19, 2017, 07:41:42 PM
I call it precog because it damn near is.

Even showing weapons that they hadn't drawn yet and the exact movement of multiple people down to a "T".

Is it precog?  No because they can still make mistakes or miss stuff.

But it is insanely accurate and can take in the environment.

I'm not talking about the Big Guy but the big fighter from the beginning of movie in the pit fight.

Holmes spends a lot of time playing around, just basically fighting the guy, slapping him on the head, at one point pays attention to the crowd for attention instead of the fighter, like a pro wrestler or something, but the moment he actually bothers to use his "predicto-vision" and fight, the battle ends almost automatically against a notably bigger opponent.

Moriarty's primary fight set was boxing but he was good enough that despite Holmes more versatile fighting style, would probably be able to get a win in more often than not.

Someone who is essentially a "super-genius at boxing" isn't exactly "Just a boxer".  Kind of down playing it is what I'm saying.

And I would actually agree with you about the taser/predicto-vision.

He tends to use it more out of desperation than as a go-to ability.

We see that with the goons, the Big Man, The Pit Fighter, I can't even recall if he actually used it for the Assassin or not.  He only used it at one point around the end of his fight with Blackwood.

Probably Holmes egotism as much as anything else.  Almost can't conceive of needing it until he absolutely does.

And yeah; against Net-Pun that will really be a bad idea.
Title: Re: Robert Downey Jr Sherlock vs Netflix Punisher
Post by: AP on May 19, 2017, 08:04:29 PM
I call it precog because it damn near is. ... But it is insanely accurate and can take in the environment.
That's what it is.  Insanely accurate.  As crazy as it is, it's not like he has a super power.  It's similar to when an action movie character throws a guy across the room.  It's inhuman but no one should consider that guy having super strength or anything.  There are limits.

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Holmes spends a lot of time playing around, just basically fighting the guy, slapping him on the head, at one point pays attention to the crowd for attention instead of the fighter, like a pro wrestler or something, but the moment he actually bothers to use his "predicto-vision" and fight, the battle ends almost automatically against a notably bigger opponent.
Sure.  Like I said, he got serious after he was spit on.  Still, that pitfighter got in a few hits and pinned Holmes against a wall twice.  He was soundly beaten, but he still had the strength and skill to get a few shots in when he could, meaning Holmes isn't perfect.

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Moriarty's primary fight set was boxing but he was good enough that despite Holmes more versatile fighting style, would probably be able to get a win in more often than not.  Someone who is essentially a "super-genius at boxing" isn't exactly "Just a boxer".  Kind of down playing it is what I'm saying.
No one said Moriarty was "just a boxer".

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And I would actually agree with you about the taser/predicto-vision.  He tends to use it more out of desperation than as a go-to ability.  We see that with the goons, the Big Man, The Pit Fighter, I can't even recall if he actually used it for the Assassin or not.  He only used it at one point around the end of his fight with Blackwood.
He usually uses it when he has a chance to stop and think.  When he used it against the goons, it was after having snuck up on them.  When he used it in the pitfight, it was because he stopped for a second.  The assassin at the beginning of the second movie was hiding, so he used it, but Nomi Rapace's character threw him off by doing something unpredictable.  Also, there were the guys at the market place who were beating him until some cops came by.  Everyone sort of backed off until they left and Holmes figured out how to beat them in those few moments.
Title: Re: Robert Downey Jr Sherlock vs Netflix Punisher
Post by: Speed of Zound on May 21, 2017, 09:04:42 PM
He's only an inch taller than Downey.
There's a pic of Rdj wearing huge platform shows so he's not shorter then Paltrow. It's kinda funny.
Title: Re: Robert Downey Jr Sherlock vs Netflix Punisher
Post by: AP on November 21, 2017, 11:07:15 PM
I liked this one too, so I topped it.  It's what I'm doing now.
Title: Re: Robert Downey Jr Sherlock vs Netflix Punisher
Post by: Mightily Oats on November 22, 2017, 04:38:28 AM
I liked this one too, so I topped it.  It's what I'm doing now.
Fandral vs Netflix Punisher
Title: Re: Robert Downey Jr Sherlock vs Netflix Punisher
Post by: AP on November 22, 2017, 06:16:00 AM
I liked this one too, so I topped it.  It's what I'm doing now.
Fandral vs Netflix Punisher

I saw a handbook that said Fandral is the best shot with a rifle in all the multiverse.