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Comic Forums => Marvel Zombies => Topic started by: ProjectCornDog on March 31, 2017, 07:27:22 PM

Title: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: ProjectCornDog on March 31, 2017, 07:27:22 PM
http://www.newsarama.com/33843-late-16-sales-downturn-told-marvel-people-didn-t-want-any-more-diversity.html

Quote
According to David Gabriel, Marvel's Senior Vice President of Sales, Print & Marketing, a sales downturn at the publisher that accompanied a "big shift in the entire industry" beginning in October 2016 came as a result of many factors, including, according to the executive, the market "turning up their noses" at any title not featuring a "core Marvel character."

Suggesting the answer to the question of why people's tastes suddenly changed was better answered by Direct Market retailers, Gabriel told ICv2 that "What we heard was that people didn't want any more diversity. They didn't want female characters out there. That's what we heard, whether we believe that or not.  I don't know that that's really true, but that's what we saw in sales."

Gabriel described what was no longer viable as "things that we had been doing successfully for the past three years..."
 
"We saw the sales of any character that was diverse, any character that was new, our female characters, anything that was not a core Marvel character, people were turning their nose up against," he explained. " That was difficult for us because we had a lot of fresh, new, exciting ideas that we were trying to get out and nothing new really worked."
 
Gabriel cited other factors for the market shift, including the economy, specifically events occurring in October/November that affected how consumers wanted to spend their money (with the unsaid implication of the U.S. presidential election), unease and lack of cash flow due to returns to Diamond Comic Distributors from DC's "Rebirth" initiative, a glut of product, and just a general sense of anger over all these issues.
 
"There was anger because of story reasons for all of us."
 
"It was the old things coming back in that time period, three books in particular, Spider-Man: Renew Your Vows, that had Spider-Man and Mary Jane married, that worked," he further explained. "The Venom book worked and the Thanos book worked. You can take what you want out of who might be enjoying those three books, but it is definitely a specific type of comic book reader, comic book collector that really liked those three series."

Credit: Marvel Comics
 
Knowing they had to make changes to adjust to the market, Gabriel explained it took six months in order for them to execute their plans, which they're now starting to promote. Recently the publisher revealed a marketing intiative which will feature the return of its classic characters and include the tagline "Make Mine Marvel."
 
Marvel's upcoming Generations series, which takes place during its summer Secret Empire crossover, will pair new iterations of Marvel's heroes with their classic counterparts.

Thoughts?
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: NeoGreenLantern on March 31, 2017, 07:40:23 PM
I don't think its giving enough information to really say no one wants diversity. I mean what titles weren't selling? No one seemed hyped for Ironheart so I wouldn't be surprised that wasn't being picked up. I haven't read it but I read America was pretty bad. On the other hand Spider-Gwen and Gwenpool seemed to be pretty popular. I've read both and both are pretty fun.
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: MTL76 on March 31, 2017, 07:49:08 PM
Write shitty, boring stories and blame it on the fans. Awesome.

Fans don't mind "diversity" (I'm assuming they mean stories about characters that aren't straight white males?) But they don't want story to be about the character not being a straight, white male. And they don't like the mantle of characters to be interchangeable. Steve Rogers is Captain America.

Waid's Black Widow has been pretty damn good, yet I don't think he's mentioned once about how sexist Widow finds SHIELD to be, or nonsense like that.

Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: ProjectCornDog on March 31, 2017, 08:03:51 PM
I think I agree with what you guys have to say, ESPECIALLY regarding Iron Heart. I'm sorry, I'm sick of these kid geniuses who are smarter than all the adults in the world. Give me a fucking break, and then to please the SJWs make sure that character is a minority. This stuff works for a show like Jimmy Neutron but dont force it down our throats, we already have characters like Amadeus Cho who actually is cool.
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: MTL76 on March 31, 2017, 08:20:42 PM
The difference between Amadeus Cho and the other kid geniuses is that Amadeus DOES SHIT that shows his intelligence. These writers are so fucking lazy. They introduce a character and want to skip all of the work in earning the character's reputation for intelligence, and just have Tony or Reed make a cameo to say "God damn, you're way smarter than I am!"
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: Ramz on March 31, 2017, 08:29:03 PM
How is it news that no one gives a shit about a muslim captain marvel kid running around with stretch powers? Likely dealing with muslim issues? Who the fuck is their target market? the 6% that are little muslim girls in north america?

Of course diversity has an effect on sales. Its pretty difficult to gauge what that is, or how much of an effect, but its going to have a huge impact. When your capital audience is most likely 30+ white males, writing about A Tranny with super powers struggling with their sexuality might not be the smartest move to make cash, or break even
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: MTL76 on March 31, 2017, 08:34:26 PM
Or look at what they did with Falcon. Falcon's a character with a long history. He's one of Marvel's iconic black heroes. He recently debuted in the Marvel cinematic universe. He's got the kind of powerset that you can stick him in a wide variety of stories. So what do they do? Make a Falcon solo series, put a hotshot writer and artist team on it, sprinkle some well-written crossovers? No, they make him the new Captain America for some stupid fucking reason. Then when the series does poorly, blame it on fans rejecting "diversity." Don't they see they're disrespecting the character?
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: Ramz on March 31, 2017, 08:38:00 PM
Or look at what they did with Falcon. Falcon's a character with a long history. He's one of Marvel's iconic black heroes. He recently debuted in the Marvel cinematic universe. He's got the kind of powerset that you can stick him in a wide variety of stories. So what do they do? Make a Falcon solo series, put a hotshot writer and artist team on it, sprinkle some well-written crossovers? No, they make him the new Captain America for some stupid fucking reason. Then when the series does poorly, blame it on fans rejecting "diversity." Don't they see they're disrespecting the character?

Yea, I can get on with that as well. Seems like an extremely lazy paint brush they're using to justify having hyper liberal stand on things, but for whatever reason, still pretty fkin lazy.
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: MTL76 on March 31, 2017, 08:44:39 PM
And then there's the story topics. Things like body positivity and the horrors of slut shaming really aren't themes I go to comic books to read about. Sure, they can be minor subplots, but god damn you can't anchor a story around them.
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: -K-M- on March 31, 2017, 08:57:49 PM
Diversity is good. But the way it was handled was so forced. They basically penalized mainstream characters and got rid of them for these new characters. Like moongirl being the most intelligent person on earth? Forced.

Say what you want about the new ms marvel at least she was unique and took time to develop her
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: MTL76 on March 31, 2017, 09:00:08 PM
Diversity is good. But the way it was handled was so forced. They basically penalized mainstream characters and got rid of them for these new characters. Like moongirl being the most intelligent person on earth? Forced.

Say what you want about the new ms marvel at least she was unique and took time to develop her

Yeah she seemed like the best of the new crop of characters.
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: ProjectCornDog on March 31, 2017, 09:06:24 PM
How is it news that no one gives a shit about a muslim captain marvel kid running around with stretch powers? Likely dealing with muslim issues? Who the fuck is their target market? the 6% that are little muslim girls in north america?

I make sure to pass over any openly Muslim super heroes, no way I am supporting that shit.
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: Panthergod on March 31, 2017, 09:15:27 PM
The sjws they are pandering to dont read comics in large numbers. twitter and tumblr activists dont read comics like that.
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: MTL76 on March 31, 2017, 09:20:00 PM
The sjws they are pandering to dont read comics in large numbers. twitter and tumblr activists dont read comics like that.

These are the same people who are bitching about Whedon directing the new Batgirl movie, and not giving it to a woman. Fuck, don't they realize this is a fucking golden age of cinema for any comic book fan? They don't give a shit about comics, they are using their recent popularity as a tool for pushing their agenda?
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: therock on March 31, 2017, 09:25:55 PM
And then there's the story topics. Things like body positivity and the horrors of slut shaming really aren't themes I go to comic books to read about. Sure, they can be minor subplots, but god damn you can't anchor a story around them.

You can as long as you make it allegorical

I mean Jessica Jones had rape heavy theme in her book when she started and woman issues

Hulk had child abuse and power fantasy
old late 70's NS 80'S comics was all about the issues
(http://img1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130320013745/marvel_dc/images/c/c3/Green_Lantern_-_Green_Arrow_Vol_1_1.jpg)


Captain America got pretty preacy at times

X-men thier even black or Gay allegory depending on the writer. And some of their teams pretty dvioce
God Loves man kills Xmen story- Was all about relegious hatred
I mean fuck look how Jon stewart used to act.

it just wasnt an internent at the time of SJW, and Anti SJW losing who can publicly and loudly lose their shit over every little thing

new characters hard to sale no matter the race or gender. So not surprise most fail when you add even extra pressure of adding racial politics
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: g-train on March 31, 2017, 11:13:14 PM
Took Marvel awhile to figure out to stop "Batgirling" up the place.
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: Whiskeyclone on March 31, 2017, 11:24:21 PM
They've been ramming it down people's throats pretty hard, yeah. But I think the fact that they've felt the need to do it at the expense of some of the classics, and just that the writing quality has been at a low both have played in as well. I was picking up She-Thor for a while, for example, but was ultimately put off by dumb ideas and the need it felt to just strip away any vestige of dignity or power or competence Odinson had.
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: -K-M- on March 31, 2017, 11:25:21 PM
They've been ramming it down people's throats pretty hard, yeah. But I think the fact that they've felt the need to do it at the expense of some of the classics, and just that the writing quality has been at a low both have played in as well.

Well said
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: Gree on April 01, 2017, 09:35:17 AM
Pretty much agree all around.

Like no need for She-Thor for example. Develop Angela more, give her a good artist and writer and give her her own book, no need to defame Thor for some weird purpose. Falcon Cap is stupid, aging all the classic is stupid. Trying to mirror the cinematic verse too much is stupid. Aging and killing Wolverine is meh and stupid
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: MTL76 on April 01, 2017, 09:45:43 AM
Jane Foster with superpowers could have been an character idea I got behind. She's a classic Thor character from way back in the day who hadn't been shown much in a while, so she has a connection to his corner of the Marvel universe. She has an interesting twist (dying of cancer as Jane, superpowerful in her alter ego), and I'm sure a good writer could have come up with a reason as to why whatever Jane's illness is couldn't be treated by Asgardian magic. And she's an outsider to Asgardian culture, so she'd be somewhat relatable to the reader.

But the way they did it... Having Thor be humiliated, for nothing? Have her not care about that? Have her taking Thor's fucking NAME, and being instantly accepted by Thor's closest allies, who also don't seem to give a shit what happened to their friend? If a stranger just showed up tomorrow using my best friend's name, saying he was his replacement, I'd want to know what the fuck was going on. How hard would it be to come up with a different name for her?

But no, that wouldn't fit Marvel's plan of replacing their icons. She HAD to be called Thor. Just as Falcon HAD to be renamed Captain America, and Nick Fury's son HAD to lose an eye and rename himself Nick Fury, Jr. They were in a bind with Iron Man, because of the "Man", which is why they went with Iron Heart, I guess.
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: AP on April 01, 2017, 10:41:36 AM
Yeah, a major problem is that they don't want to have orange final characters or even use prexisting minority characters (come on... Silohuette was a woman of color AND handicapped and Marvel didn't care to use her?). Instead they had a black Spider-Man, a female Thor, etc.  They even took Falcon who had his own thing going on, and just turned him into black Cap.  They will always be seen as lesser versions.  They should have gone in a different direction.
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: therock on April 01, 2017, 11:47:07 AM
maybe this the SJW in me. But never saw an issue with that stuff, since they always seems temporary like Wearwolf Cap,  Frankencastle, Angel Punisher (damm Punisher had some tough runs)


or Jim Gordon batman, Dick Grayson Batman,  Arazel Batman, Deadbatman (damm been a couple of batmans)


Also black spiderman was in an alternate universe. And he was kind of popular.

Now stuff like Black firstorm I can get. Because that seem who they going with for the time being since the public regonize him as black now. Since they reaching a Jon stewart type situation at this point. Since he on the TV show and the games, and in the show they killed of the white one. So far he aint coming back

Or black Wally. since again he getting the most public eye balls. Or black Iris from flash (black Iris is also the name of a new drug hitting the streets)
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: superlurker on April 01, 2017, 03:31:58 PM
maybe this the SJW in me. But never saw an issue with that stuff, since they always seems temporary like Wearwolf Cap,  Frankencastle, Angel Punisher (damm Punisher had some tough runs)

I definitely see the equivalence between turning Punisher into an animated monster or Cap into a werewolf and turning Cap black or Iron Man into a black girl.

Of course, there's a subtle difference in that the former case actually involves transforming the former characters, while the latter is just replacing them. That's the crux of the issue, and why most Marvel comics have turned unreadable -- they've either replaced a ton of characters with new writer's pets that people don't give half a fuck about, or changed established characters into something unrecognizable. They're introducing tons of new things all over the place and not building them up or trying to give them their own identity (probably because they expect wholly new creations won't stick in 99% of all cases).

This isn't really an issue of people being opposed to diversity, it's an issue of throwing out a lot of the familiar things in an insulting fashion and leaving a tapestry filled with bland new stuff that no one cares about in their place.

Presenting it as an issue of people not wanting diversity is actually fairly insulting. The issue is one of a poorly executed editorial strategy combined with some level of creative bankruptcy in many cases. It's like they didn't learn their lessons about why 90s comics sucked.

Possibly they just think that if they assembled Chuck Berry, Jimi Hendrix, Tina Turner and Ozzy Osbourne, they'd have the Beatles.
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: therock on April 01, 2017, 04:17:08 PM
Thing is I dont know how you introduce new stuff without having to go through a bunch of stuff shitting the bed

like I dont know how people reacted when Crisis first happen, or the comedica take of Justice league happen with Griffen back in the day

or people introduction to angry black man  Jon Stewart. or Guy, or tim Drake or new superboy. Without going thing some Electro supes shit before hand.  Maybe you just have to go through a ton of cap for some good stuff to claw their way out and be part of comics. Milinstone maybe had to shit to bed, but out of it came a pretty good Static shock cartoon that people remember and he shows up in a lot of stuf

Part of introducing new cocenpts is a lot of them have to fail to find the good stuff.  I mean you might never got a beta Ray Bill out of it

So never though Iron man was REALLY getting replace with a black girl in anyway that permanent. Seen cap get replace with Bucky, so didnt  think Falcoln was permanent. It was More like Mmmm lets playtest falcon as Cap, in case we got to do in a movie. Lets see how it works.  Or lets give a new charcter a spot light

maybe it to due with how I got into some of these guys..during the time when they were going crazy. 90's era when i really collected,  Late 80's era when I first dip my toes in

Wally was my Flash when I first read (find Barry boring)
Kyle was my Green Laneter. Since started reading it after Death of Superman. Then Jon stewart due to the cartoon
Superboy was some clone with an ear ring
My supergirl was some blob thing
Tim Drake was my Robin
Jonny Blaze wasnt ghost rider
Cap was nomad for a bit
Only got introduce through hawkman myhos through the cartoon
Spiderman was married. Actully there was a lot of heroes married. I remember all the big marriage issues
An everyone..everyone was EXTREME


Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: Thanos6 on April 01, 2017, 04:35:08 PM
I also think there's something important that the writers or editors can easily forget: If you're going to replace a character, give the original a respectful, dignified send-off.

A heroic death, sacrificing themselves knowingly to save the world or their family or whatever, can work, but usually that pisses off the fans, since they don't like seeing their favorite heroes die, even nobly.

(An exception can occur if the character has been through such bad stories that even the fans would view it less as a tragedy and more an act of mercy, like putting the beloved family pet to sleep when it becomes horribly sick; I'm told that the over two-year long "Trial Of The Flash" storyline that ended Barry Allen's title before the CRISIS ON INFINITE EARTHS was so awful, that many Flash fans believed the book was beyond saving, and why there wasn't too much negative reaction to his death against the Anti-Monitor.)

Better, I feel, to do something that removes their ability, but not their desire, to be a hero; perhaps they must give it up for some altruistic reason or other.  That clears the deck for the new character while letting the old one ride off into the sunset to a well-deserved happy ending, which doesn't piss off their fans as much, and leaves the door open for cameos, perhaps an ongoing role as a member of the supporting cast, and the ability to return them to heroism at some point down the line, either replacing their replacement or alongside them.

The worst thing to do is send the old character out in a blaze of suck, like Hal Jordan in "Emerald Twilight."  Turning him into a mentally unbalanced mass murderer?  Guaranteed way to alienate the vast majority of the fanbase.  No wonder they didn't accept Kyle Rayner.

I wonder how far back this goes...do you think fans who read Alan Scott and Jay Garrick back in the 40's got pissed when Hal Jordan and Barry Allen came around?
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: Gree on April 01, 2017, 06:31:50 PM
Jane Foster with superpowers could have been an character idea I got behind. She's a classic Thor character from way back in the day who hadn't been shown much in a while, so she has a connection to his corner of the Marvel universe. She has an interesting twist (dying of cancer as Jane, superpowerful in her alter ego), and I'm sure a good writer could have come up with a reason as to why whatever Jane's illness is couldn't be treated by Asgardian magic. And she's an outsider to Asgardian culture, so she'd be somewhat relatable to the reader.

But the way they did it... Having Thor be humiliated, for nothing? Have her not care about that? Have her taking Thor's fucking NAME, and being instantly accepted by Thor's closest allies, who also don't seem to give a shit what happened to their friend? If a stranger just showed up tomorrow using my best friend's name, saying he was his replacement, I'd want to know what the fuck was going on. How hard would it be to come up with a different name for her?

But no, that wouldn't fit Marvel's plan of replacing their icons. She HAD to be called Thor. Just as Falcon HAD to be renamed Captain America, and Nick Fury's son HAD to lose an eye and rename himself Nick Fury, Jr. They were in a bind with Iron Man, because of the "Man", which is why they went with Iron Heart, I guess.

Agreed they could have come up with something for Jane, like an asgardian artifact or something to make her interesting instead of destroying Thor
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: Imperial on April 01, 2017, 06:55:02 PM
So doing nearly across the board replacements of the brands most popular characters for no other reason than to cater to tumblrinas that obsess about gender/race/identity politics did not work out?

For years people have been telling Marvel these groups do not read comics in any great numbers. Certainly not to the point where you burn so much of prior times to the ground for them. SJWs leapfrog from one subject (gaming) to another (comedy) to another (comics) to another (fitness.) It's about imposing their will and preferences on others. Not an individual interest in what they are complaining about.

I mean Christ, has there been much difference in the market focus for She-Thor, Angela, Carol Danvers, and Mockingbird? They or their titles have been presented as political, angry at the world, men are stupid/evil/oppressive, don't tread on my vagina types. No wonder Marvel's supposedly #1 female cannot keep a book and needs to constantly be rebooted to a new #1.

The smartest thing almost any target can do is ignore or shun these people right away. Then you can make changes organically down the road after they have left to bother some other unfortunate group. As opposed to having to do them under the gun of a movement that represents only itself and is largely disagreed with otherwise.

And yeah, stop overdoing it with then "This character is the best/strongest/smartest/most powerful/etc." Give readers reasons to like them as people. Not just preach about how awesome they are and drop hints that anyone not onboard is close minded or bigoted.
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: AP on April 01, 2017, 07:06:13 PM
maybe this the SJW in me. But never saw an issue with that stuff, since they always seems temporary like Wearwolf Cap,  Frankencastle, Angel Punisher (damm Punisher had some tough runs)


or Jim Gordon batman, Dick Grayson Batman,  Arazel Batman, Deadbatman (damm been a couple of batmans)


Also black spiderman was in an alternate universe. And he was kind of popular.

Now stuff like Black firstorm I can get. Because that seem who they going with for the time being since the public regonize him as black now. Since they reaching a Jon stewart type situation at this point. Since he on the TV show and the games, and in the show they killed of the white one. So far he aint coming back

Or black Wally. since again he getting the most public eye balls. Or black Iris from flash (black Iris is also the name of a new drug hitting the streets)

You're missing my point.

With Miles Morales and Peter Parker around at the same time, Miles will always be just the black Spider-Man.  You pointing out how temporary it all is proves my stance even further that very few people are ever going to truly give a shit.

If Marvel wanted these characters to shine, they should have created original characters or focus on the minority characters they already have.
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: Strawman Abridged on April 01, 2017, 07:18:13 PM
As so often happens, it's not so much the idea behind change but awful execution that ruins everything.


Also, I wouldn't be so quick to equivocate attempts to broaden diversity in the medium with creative status quo shifts; I'd imagine these topics deserve to be attributed more weight than what amount to cheap marketing ploys in the current era. You don't promote diversity by employing it as a gimmick.




Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: therock on April 01, 2017, 07:58:49 PM
maybe this the SJW in me. But never saw an issue with that stuff, since they always seems temporary like Wearwolf Cap,  Frankencastle, Angel Punisher (damm Punisher had some tough runs)


or Jim Gordon batman, Dick Grayson Batman,  Arazel Batman, Deadbatman (damm been a couple of batmans)


Also black spiderman was in an alternate universe. And he was kind of popular.

Now stuff like Black firstorm I can get. Because that seem who they going with for the time being since the public regonize him as black now. Since they reaching a Jon stewart type situation at this point. Since he on the TV show and the games, and in the show they killed of the white one. So far he aint coming back

Or black Wally. since again he getting the most public eye balls. Or black Iris from flash (black Iris is also the name of a new drug hitting the streets)

You're missing my point.

With Miles Morales and Peter Parker around at the same time, Miles will always be just the black Spider-Man.  You pointing out how temporary it all is proves my stance even further that very few people are ever going to truly give a shit.

If Marvel wanted these characters to shine, they should have created original characters or focus on the minority characters they already have.

it wasnt termpary in the unverse it was in. He one of the few that may not be termpoary.  And he became popular. Girl thor..yea thats not tempoary. Jon Stewart was just the black green Lantern..but if they didnt suddenly introduce them you might not have that character. At one point he took over the title, then it was guy. I fucking love guy gardner as a character. Him and Gnort was kind of fun. Now he good character for writer to used. But you had to give a limelight for people to know this new guy.  You might not have She Hulk. Which was girl Hulk that was very quickly made because they didnt want TV to create the character. or Supergirl.  or Batgirl. That started as batwoman. Which was introduce to make sure people knew batman was down for the puss. All started as marketing..to get broaden the fan base. Robin was created for young boys to say "Hey i can hang with batman yippie" and for batman to explain expostion to. A gimmik. Sometime you got to force it. Some of those old minority character are forgotten for a reason. Appache Cheif not making a comeback. So at times you got to tossed shit at the wall and see what sticks. Most shit dont others come out well.


like imp said at one point in history you had Alan Scot get replace by Hal Jordan. Maybe if the net was around at the town people would bitch

my point is BECAUSE it tempary..like say your hydra cap they shouldnt really get that mad. It just testing character out. Like DC wanted to introduce majectic  in the DCU, that guy took over superman for a bit. Same with Mon-el. All character were new at one point
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: Upper_Krust on April 01, 2017, 08:01:21 PM
Been chuckling all day at this stuff since I read it earlier on Bleeding Cool.

Marvel have fucked the comics up so badly these past few years you have to suspect Axel is on the way out. All their best talent has walked (presumably because of a combination of Editorial interference over constant Events* and the idiotic feminist agenda being pandered to in so many of the books).

*Only 5 this year though.  ::)

The comics market is slow to change. It takes a lot to get large numbers of fans to drop the titles of their favourite characters. But fan opinion has been like a snowball going downhill and the more it travels the more fans it collects who abandon the Marvel Mountain. So it has taken a few years to get to this point and all the while Marvel are STILL in denial so we will see their sales continue to drop and EVEN AFTER they wake up, sales will STILL continue to drop because the market, as it was slow to abandon them, will be slow to return to them. So BARE MINIMUM I see sales falling at Marvel for the next 18 months to 2 years.

On a personal level I have been sickened for some years now at their treatment of Thor (and to a lesser extent Hulk).

By the sacred blood of Odin I swear I'll never buy ANY Marvel title* while Jane Foster is 'Thor' and I'll never buy another Jason Aaron book in my life.

*Pre-Disney back issues/trades I may occasionally dabble in.
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: Upper_Krust on April 01, 2017, 08:04:24 PM
I don't think its giving enough information to really say no one wants diversity. I mean what titles weren't selling? No one seemed hyped for Ironheart so I wouldn't be surprised that wasn't being picked up. I haven't read it but I read America was pretty bad. On the other hand Spider-Gwen and Gwenpool seemed to be pretty popular. I've read both and both are pretty fun.

...its worse than you think.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2P01Mt_JFmM
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: Upper_Krust on April 01, 2017, 08:17:13 PM
I don't think its giving enough information to really say no one wants diversity. I mean what titles weren't selling? No one seemed hyped for Ironheart so I wouldn't be surprised that wasn't being picked up. I haven't read it but I read America was pretty bad. On the other hand Spider-Gwen and Gwenpool seemed to be pretty popular. I've read both and both are pretty fun.

Issue #5 where unarmoured 15 year old RiRi beats up multiple armoured ninja robots with her fists, in a few seconds hacks Techno-Golem's armour a villain who defeated Iron Man + War Machine, and then one-shots the villain once she's out of her armour.

I believe that constitutes a 'Mary Sue'.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2fhRwmkOAI
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: AP on April 01, 2017, 08:24:25 PM
maybe this the SJW in me. But never saw an issue with that stuff, since they always seems temporary like Wearwolf Cap,  Frankencastle, Angel Punisher (damm Punisher had some tough runs)


or Jim Gordon batman, Dick Grayson Batman,  Arazel Batman, Deadbatman (damm been a couple of batmans)


Also black spiderman was in an alternate universe. And he was kind of popular.

Now stuff like Black firstorm I can get. Because that seem who they going with for the time being since the public regonize him as black now. Since they reaching a Jon stewart type situation at this point. Since he on the TV show and the games, and in the show they killed of the white one. So far he aint coming back

Or black Wally. since again he getting the most public eye balls. Or black Iris from flash (black Iris is also the name of a new drug hitting the streets)

You're missing my point.

With Miles Morales and Peter Parker around at the same time, Miles will always be just the black Spider-Man.  You pointing out how temporary it all is proves my stance even further that very few people are ever going to truly give a shit.

If Marvel wanted these characters to shine, they should have created original characters or focus on the minority characters they already have.

it wasnt termpary in the unverse it was in. He one of the few that may not be termpoary.  And he became popular. Girl thor..yea thats not tempoary. Jon Stewart was just the black green Lantern..but if they didnt suddenly introduce them you might not have that character. At one point he took over the title, then it was guy. I fucking love guy gardner as a character. Him and Gnort was kind of fun. Now he good character for writer to used. But you had to give a limelight for people to know this new guy.  You might not have She Hulk. Which was girl Hulk that was very quickly made because they didnt want TV to create the character. or Supergirl.  or Batgirl. That started as batwoman. Which was introduce to make sure people knew batman was down for the puss. All started as marketing..to get broaden the fan base. Robin was created for young boys to say "Hey i can hang with batman yippie" and for batman to explain expostion to. A gimmik. Sometime you got to force it. Some of those old minority character are forgotten for a reason. Appache Cheif not making a comeback. So at times you got to tossed shit at the wall and see what sticks. Most shit dont others come out well.


like imp said at one point in history you had Alan Scot get replace by Hal Jordan. Maybe if the net was around at the town people would bitch

my point is BECAUSE it tempary..like say your hydra cap they shouldnt really get that mad. It just testing character out. Like DC wanted to introduce majectic  in the DCU, that guy took over superman for a bit. Same with Mon-el. All character were new at one point

Yeah, you're still missing my point.
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: Dlbiininja on April 02, 2017, 05:26:10 PM
Or look at what they did with Falcon. Falcon's a character with a long history. He's one of Marvel's iconic black heroes. He recently debuted in the Marvel cinematic universe. He's got the kind of powerset that you can stick him in a wide variety of stories. So what do they do? Make a Falcon solo series, put a hotshot writer and artist team on it, sprinkle some well-written crossovers? No, they make him the new Captain America for some stupid fucking reason. Then when the series does poorly, blame it on fans rejecting "diversity." Don't they see they're disrespecting the character?

I don't know about that.  I mean even with his power set.  He's still a long time compatriot to cap and it kind of makes sense to hand over the title of cap to him as say Bucky.  Who was a Russian assassin And we saw how that worked out for him.  We even saw hawkeye cap.  You can say that the super soldier is also a direct connect to being blonde and blue eyed. Which of course was Hitler's dream.  But, it's suddenly a problem to give it to someone who isn't of that standard.  I think you can do just as much with him as Cap. Diving shield bombs of death from above.  Yes!
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: MTL76 on April 02, 2017, 05:40:22 PM
Giving the title of Captain America to anyone else is bullshit, unless it's part of a story that highlights the fact that it's bullshit, like when the US government gave it to Superpatriot.
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: Ramz on April 02, 2017, 05:54:12 PM
What percentage do you guys think diversity pays a role here? Initially I thought it was a good margin, but after reading a few posts, these other reasons for these comics failing tend to make more sense - not to say I don't think diversity does plays a role, just a lesser role in marvels failure.

Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: 80sBaby on April 02, 2017, 06:28:54 PM
Diversity isn't the problem. Yes, some fans dislike "shoehirning" new, sex/race changed characters into previously established roles. However, Marvel has a lot of other problems, like bloated events, too many events, "loose" continuity between books (particularly ones that share characters) and pushing certain franchises at the expense of others.
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: AP on April 02, 2017, 06:36:02 PM
Yeah, diversity isn't as issue.  It has more to do with poor management and a lack of insight.
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: therock on April 02, 2017, 06:38:23 PM
one thing is some of the new books arent just diveristy but just WEIRD and quirky types. Like Hipster hawkeye or batgirl. Kind of indie feel

Or off the radar picks, know your foolkilers, slapstick, solo

Then you got Gwen pool, spider Gwen, squirel girl. Which not sure consider SJW books. Do find Gwenpool funny and Slapstick though. Actully susbscribe to slapstick. Not sure how many of those books going to be around. Like is the Venom in Space book still out there, or the guardians of the Galaxy spin off books

Like most the book I get probally going away
Howard the Duck..and Later they put in Duck pool (deadpool + Howard)
Foolkiller
Slapstick

probally gone
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: Thanos6 on April 02, 2017, 09:05:55 PM
Giving the title of Captain America to anyone else is bullshit, unless it's part of a story that highlights the fact that it's bullshit, like when the US government gave it to Superpatriot.

I wouldn't say that the Super Patriot story showed that no one but Steve Rogers can be Cap, but that it has to be someone like Steve Rogers, and as such, as I would say Sam Wilson would be a fairly good choice.

That being said, I dropped Sam's Captain America book after the first storyarc, but that was because I didn't care for the story, not because of who had the title.
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: MTL76 on April 02, 2017, 10:07:15 PM
Diversity is great. Coupling diversity with "You racist, sexist nerds are going to hate this!" gets old fast.
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: AP on April 03, 2017, 12:11:32 AM
Diversity is great. Coupling diversity with "You racist, sexist nerds are going to hate this!" gets old fast.

Yeah, insulting the fan base isn't a good idea.  It didn't work well for the new Ghostbusters movie, either.  It's baffling that they thought that would work.
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: Upper_Krust on April 03, 2017, 11:48:58 AM
What percentage do you guys think diversity pays a role here? Initially I thought it was a good margin, but after reading a few posts, these other reasons for these comics failing tend to make more sense - not to say I don't think diversity does plays a role, just a lesser role in marvels failure.

Agree with pretty much everyone on this; Diversity is not a problem at all, but its FORCED implementation is. Various problems include:

...on Politics...

1. Replacing Characters with female knock-offs - I would have read a book about a female Thor BUT NOT at the expense of Thor. When almost the entire line is composed of female knock-offs you know they have lost the fucking plot.

2. The Political (Feminist) Agenda - Marvel are currently Anti-white and Anti-male. Just so happens the biggest comic market are white males and Marvel have been giving them the finger for some years now.

3. Mary Sue characters - Marvel's female heroes are totally boring because they are perfect (geniuses, who are better than their male counterparts at everything...and more powerful).

4. Emasculation of male characters - not content with building up all the female characters, Marvel have systematically been crapping on male characters at every opportunity.

...on Events...

5. Event Sequels - lazy, boring and uninspiring.

6. Hero vs. Hero events - lazy, boring and uninspiring.

7. Too many Events - when there are constant Events, then that becomes the status quo; its no longer an Event.

8. Delayed Events - totally destroys the momentum.

...on Comics themselves...

9. Decompression Destroys Comics - to be clear, decompression as a style works in longer format (graphic novels and trades) BUT it is the death knell of the shorter comic format.

10. Less pages, Less story, Less panels, Less Dialogue - Modern comics can be read in 5 minutes or less. They rarely seem like value for money anymore.

11. Overpriced Comics - not only do we get LESS, but they charge more for it. $4.99 for half of Marvel's books now its seems.

12. Renumbering Too Often - shows they no longer have a clue how to keep people interested in ongoing titles and its all about the quick buck.

13. Bad Action Scenes - No one at Marvel (or DC) seem to have a clue how to stage a good action scene anymore.

...on the Talent...

14. WAY too many Decompression Style SJW writers at Marvel right now - It basically seems that the way to get a job at Marvel now is criticize Trump on Twitter.

15. The Best Writers have left - I'm guessing but surely this is because of a combination of Editorial Interference on constant Events and Political Witch-hunting of non-SJWs.

16. Rotating Artists on Books (and yes DC do this too) - its a quick way to turn readers off a book. Plus here's a tip, if you are worried a book will be late, fucking get some issues in the bag before you advertise it - its not rocket science.

17. Crap Colours (and yes this is DC too) - I am sure this is not all Colour Artists but I have seen WAY TOO MANY badly coloured books recently and you have to wonder that either these people don't know what they are doing or are either just dialing it in or they are simply not being given enough time to work on the pages.

...on the Management/Staff...

18. Delusional - as we have seen from the interviews they still don't understand the problems.

19. Willing to blame everyone but themselves - again, totally in denial.

20. Insulting their fanbase - seen multiple interviews and twitter posts from staff at Marvel over the past year or two basically calling fans racist, sexist etc. That's only going to cause fans to resent them even more.
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: Eclipse on April 03, 2017, 01:19:13 PM
I also think there's something important that the writers or editors can easily forget: If you're going to replace a character, give the original a respectful, dignified send-off.

This.

I still think the idea of the "Old Guard" either retiring or moving on from frontline duty would work great. Steve Rogers is formally named the new Director of SHIELD, so he hands the Captain America title to Falcon ("Because the world still needs Captain America"). Thor is formally crowned the new king of Asgard, so he tasks Angela with protecting Earth in his place. Peter Parker decides to create Parker Corp. so he can use his scientific intellect to help people instead of just his fists, but mentors Miles Morales because New York still needs Spiderman. Its respectful to old guard, AND still allows them to show up as supporting cast or even headlining new series (e.g., a new SHIELD series w/ Steve as the main).

They're doing this with Iron Man and Iron Heart, so its confusing why that approach wasn't applied across the board. Instead, Marvel decided that the best way to "retire" the previous gen was to make them ineffectual and/or corrupted.
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: Snake-eyes on April 03, 2017, 01:35:37 PM
maybe this the SJW in me. But never saw an issue with that stuff, since they always seems temporary like Wearwolf Cap,  Frankencastle, Angel Punisher (damm Punisher had some tough runs)


or Jim Gordon batman, Dick Grayson Batman,  Arazel Batman, Deadbatman (damm been a couple of batmans)


Also black spiderman was in an alternate universe. And he was kind of popular.

Now stuff like Black firstorm I can get. Because that seem who they going with for the time being since the public regonize him as black now. Since they reaching a Jon stewart type situation at this point. Since he on the TV show and the games, and in the show they killed of the white one. So far he aint coming back

Or black Wally. since again he getting the most public eye balls. Or black Iris from flash (black Iris is also the name of a new drug hitting the streets)

You're missing my point.

With Miles Morales and Peter Parker around at the same time, Miles will always be just the black Spider-Man.  You pointing out how temporary it all is proves my stance even further that very few people are ever going to truly give a shit.

If Marvel wanted these characters to shine, they should have created original characters or focus on the minority characters they already have.

it wasnt termpary in the unverse it was in. He one of the few that may not be termpoary.  And he became popular. Girl thor..yea thats not tempoary. Jon Stewart was just the black green Lantern..but if they didnt suddenly introduce them you might not have that character. At one point he took over the title, then it was guy. I fucking love guy gardner as a character. Him and Gnort was kind of fun. Now he good character for writer to used. But you had to give a limelight for people to know this new guy.  You might not have She Hulk. Which was girl Hulk that was very quickly made because they didnt want TV to create the character. or Supergirl.  or Batgirl. That started as batwoman. Which was introduce to make sure people knew batman was down for the puss. All started as marketing..to get broaden the fan base. Robin was created for young boys to say "Hey i can hang with batman yippie" and for batman to explain expostion to. A gimmik. Sometime you got to force it. Some of those old minority character are forgotten for a reason. Appache Cheif not making a comeback. So at times you got to tossed shit at the wall and see what sticks. Most shit dont others come out well.


like imp said at one point in history you had Alan Scot get replace by Hal Jordan. Maybe if the net was around at the town people would bitch

my point is BECAUSE it tempary..like say your hydra cap they shouldnt really get that mad. It just testing character out. Like DC wanted to introduce majectic  in the DCU, that guy took over superman for a bit. Same with Mon-el. All character were new at one point

Yeah, you're still missing my point.

Are you surprised?
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: g-train on April 03, 2017, 02:28:18 PM
Or look at what they did with Falcon. Falcon's a character with a long history. He's one of Marvel's iconic black heroes. He recently debuted in the Marvel cinematic universe. He's got the kind of powerset that you can stick him in a wide variety of stories. So what do they do? Make a Falcon solo series, put a hotshot writer and artist team on it, sprinkle some well-written crossovers? No, they make him the new Captain America for some stupid fucking reason. Then when the series does poorly, blame it on fans rejecting "diversity." Don't they see they're disrespecting the character?

I don't know about that.  I mean even with his power set.  He's still a long time compatriot to cap and it kind of makes sense to hand over the title of cap to him as say Bucky.  Who was a Russian assassin And we saw how that worked out for him.  We even saw hawkeye cap.  You can say that the super soldier is also a direct connect to being blonde and blue eyed. Which of course was Hitler's dream.  But, it's suddenly a problem to give it to someone who isn't of that standard.  I think you can do just as much with him as Cap. Diving shield bombs of death from above.  Yes!

Eh....it does kind of go against prior established aspects of the character.  On the other hand; guy's worked with SHIELD, Cap etc....a pretty decent amount over the years.

It does seem like the concept of 'The Falcon" got some disrespect when he got his own version of The Falcon, series seemed to think that Falcon was Cap's side kick when he was intended to be a full on Partner/Equal.

Though over the years; whenever Cap get's replaced it almost always comes down to "Only Steve is the True Captain America".

Even had a issue once where a guy/elder of the unvierse tried to take him to the realm where "concepts" live or whatever so the dream of "Patriotism" would live on forever if I remember right.

It's kind of like RiRi over in Iron Man; if she's so much better than him at tech. etc.....why is she degrading herself by going by the name Iron Man and not just doing her own thing?

Admit-ably I've read almost nothing with her in it but still.

When you go out of your way to make a character so much better than the one they are replacing it does beg the question why downgrade yourself by naming yourself after an obsolete product?

Beyonce didn't call herself Madonna, Nikki Minaj didn't call herself Rihanna.  Or you know which ever of the two came first but you get my point.

With Falcon and Cap it at least makes sense, he's basically selected for a specific job or Position in the military that happens to be called "Captain America".

RiRi uses her own tech., can punch out techno-Ninja's and can make her own suits but chooses to call herself Iron-"Man"......how is that empowering females and not the exact opposite?  She couldn't have called herself Steel Woman or the Titanium Lady?

Metal Maiden?

Kind of saying that no matter how good you are, no matter how much you accomplish.....you still need to define yourself by men and it's better to be a man.

But I don't get that's the message they are intentionally trying to send.
Title: Re:"Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: 80sBaby on April 03, 2017, 03:34:24 PM
I also think there's something important that the writers or editors can easily forget: If you're going to replace a character, give the original a respectful, dignified send-off.

This.

I still think the idea of the "Old Guard" either retiring or moving on from frontline duty would work great. Steve Rogers is formally named the new Director of SHIELD, so he hands the Captain America title to Falcon ("Because the world still needs Captain America"). Thor is formally crowned the new king of Asgard, so he tasks Angela with protecting Earth in his place. Peter Parker decides to create Parker Corp. so he can use his scientific intellect to help people instead of just his fists, but mentors Miles Morales because New York still needs Spiderman. Its respectful to old guard, AND still allows them to show up as supporting cast or even headlining new series (e.g., a new SHIELD series w/ Steve as the main).

They're doing this with Iron Man and Iron Heart, so its confusing why that approach wasn't applied across the board. Instead, Marvel decided that the best way to "retire" the previous gen was to make them ineffectual and/or corrupted.

Your first 2 examples (Steve/Falcon & Peter/Miles) ARE what they did yet people still complain. It's not about "diversity." If it was, that'd be an easy fix.

Here's a good article from CBR about this: http://www.cbr.com/no-diversity-didnt-kill-marvels-comic-sales/
Title: Re:"Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: 80sBaby on April 03, 2017, 03:38:28 PM
Or look at what they did with Falcon. Falcon's a character with a long history. He's one of Marvel's iconic black heroes. He recently debuted in the Marvel cinematic universe. He's got the kind of powerset that you can stick him in a wide variety of stories. So what do they do? Make a Falcon solo series, put a hotshot writer and artist team on it, sprinkle some well-written crossovers? No, they make him the new Captain America for some stupid fucking reason. Then when the series does poorly, blame it on fans rejecting "diversity." Don't they see they're disrespecting the character?

I don't know about that.  I mean even with his power set.  He's still a long time compatriot to cap and it kind of makes sense to hand over the title of cap to him as say Bucky.  Who was a Russian assassin And we saw how that worked out for him.  We even saw hawkeye cap.  You can say that the super soldier is also a direct connect to being blonde and blue eyed. Which of course was Hitler's dream.  But, it's suddenly a problem to give it to someone who isn't of that standard.  I think you can do just as much with him as Cap. Diving shield bombs of death from above.  Yes!

Eh....it does kind of go against prior established aspects of the character.  On the other hand; guy's worked with SHIELD, Cap etc....a pretty decent amount over the years.

It does seem like the concept of 'The Falcon" got some disrespect when he got his own version of The Falcon, series seemed to think that Falcon was Cap's side kick when he was intended to be a full on Partner/Equal.

Though over the years; whenever Cap get's replaced it almost always comes down to "Only Steve is the True Captain America".

Even had a issue once where a guy/elder of the unvierse tried to take him to the realm where "concepts" live or whatever so the dream of "Patriotism" would live on forever if I remember right.

It's kind of like RiRi over in Iron Man; if she's so much better than him at tech. etc.....why is she degrading herself by going by the name Iron Man and not just doing her own thing?

Admit-ably I've read almost nothing with her in it but still.

When you go out of your way to make a character so much better than the one they are replacing it does beg the question why downgrade yourself by naming yourself after an obsolete product?

Beyonce didn't call herself Madonna, Nikki Minaj didn't call herself Rihanna.  Or you know which ever of the two came first but you get my point.

With Falcon and Cap it at least makes sense, he's basically selected for a specific job or Position in the military that happens to be called "Captain America".

RiRi uses her own tech., can punch out techno-Ninja's and can make her own suits but chooses to call herself Iron-"Man"......how is that empowering females and not the exact opposite?  She couldn't have called herself Steel Woman or the Titanium Lady?

Metal Maiden?

Kind of saying that no matter how good you are, no matter how much you accomplish.....you still need to define yourself by men and it's better to be a man.

But I don't get that's the message they are intentionally trying to send.

RiRi isn't going by "Ironman." She's "Iron Maiden."

As for why they swap names, that's a real world reason regarding fictional characters, so your Beyonce/Rhianna comparison doesn't really work. It's a part of marketing. A Falcon book simply isn't going to sell as much as a Sam-lead Captain America book.
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More"
Post by: Not BAMF on April 03, 2017, 03:59:39 PM
I'm of two minds on this issue, and I just this weekend gave my buddy on FB a large diatribe on the issue. I'm too lazy to repeat that here. Maybe when I'm home, I'll cut and paste large chunks of it. But my conflicting thoughts...

1) The whole "HURR SJWs HURR" population are morons, and I don't ever want to be associated with them. For instance, you have mouth breathers who say stuff like, oh,  "Marvel is anti-male and anti-white!", and my eyes roll like soccer balls. I don't have time to deal with people for whom developing Down Syndrome would radically increase their cognitive process.

2) But that said, Marvel was ridiculously obvious with their whole "EVERYONE YOU LOVE IS REPLACED WITH MINORITIES NOW. DEAL WITH IT" strategy. In the span of 5 years or so, they created pandering version of Spidey, Thor, Hulk, Captain Marvel, Captain America (TWICE!), Iron Man, etc. It wasn't even remotely subtle or nuanced. And when the VAST MAJORITY of your fan base are straight, white males... you're going to get some kickback from those people who think anything that isn't 100% aimed at them (like everything else in their lives always has been) is an assault on their being. And when just creating these characters isn't going to bring in new readers beyond maybe an introductory issue as a curiosity, you're likely to end up with a net loss in the short-term. As a LONG-TERM strategy, this could work, but you have to cultivate readers over time. You can't just say "WE GOT BLACK GIRLS NOW, EVERYONE!" and expect every young black woman in America to pick up a hobby they'd never considered before.

So yeah, I am not surprised that this movement has resulted in a deficit in sales. Coupled with all of Marvel's other problems, especially.
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More"
Post by: therock on April 03, 2017, 04:20:49 PM
I'm of two minds on this issue, and I just this weekend gave my buddy on FB a large diatribe on the issue. I'm too lazy to repeat that here. Maybe when I'm home, I'll cut and paste large chunks of it. But my conflicting thoughts...

1) The whole "HURR SJWs HURR" population are morons, and I don't ever want to be associated with them. For instance, you have mouth breathers who say stuff like, oh,  "Marvel is anti-male and anti-white!", and my eyes roll like soccer balls. I don't have time to deal with people for whom developing Down Syndrome would radically increase their cognitive process.

2) But that said, Marvel was ridiculously obvious with their whole "EVERYONE YOU LOVE IS REPLACED WITH MINORITIES NOW. DEAL WITH IT" strategy. In the span of 5 years or so, they created pandering version of Spidey, Thor, Hulk, Captain Marvel, Captain America (TWICE!), Iron Man, etc. It wasn't even remotely subtle or nuanced. And when the VAST MAJORITY of your fan base are straight, white males... you're going to get some kickback from those people who think anything that isn't 100% aimed at them (like everything else in their lives always has been) is an assault on their being. And when just creating these characters isn't going to bring in new readers beyond maybe an introductory issue as a curiosity, you're likely to end up with a net loss in the short-term. As a LONG-TERM strategy, this could work, but you have to cultivate readers over time. You can't just say "WE GOT BLACK GIRLS NOW, EVERYONE!" and expect every young black woman in America to pick up a hobby they'd never considered before.

So yeah, I am not surprised that this movement has resulted in a deficit in sales. Coupled with all of Marvel's other problems, especially.


Well think they though the movie doing well, would bring a lot of people into comic shops

when really it not. kids today got netflix,video games, Hulu, and if there reading a lot of them reading manga least girls are. With maybe some trades here and there.

But the people reading comic now are the same people reading it 20 years ago, they just got older and. And they never learn how to market in new ways. How about at the End of the CW, talk about a new trade.  Or new black character, put in an ebony magazine or KING. How a part of an of a cage comic book in a rap magazine with a code to a digital download

in fact ever marvel Blue should come with free credit for digital downloads..expand it that way. Like Antman movie here a code for antman. Buy Deadpool here a code for a bunch of classic deadpool books. Cost them damm near nothing

Hell legion a GREAT show..but dont know how many people know that Xmen

But if they cant, and there no new generations of DC and marvel readers, then comics might go even further down once we die off. Deffintly at the sales they used to be.
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: Panthergod on April 03, 2017, 07:51:43 PM
My niece loves Moongirl and Devil Dinosaur.
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: AP on April 03, 2017, 08:03:14 PM
Or look at what they did with Falcon. Falcon's a character with a long history. He's one of Marvel's iconic black heroes. He recently debuted in the Marvel cinematic universe. He's got the kind of powerset that you can stick him in a wide variety of stories. So what do they do? Make a Falcon solo series, put a hotshot writer and artist team on it, sprinkle some well-written crossovers? No, they make him the new Captain America for some stupid fucking reason. Then when the series does poorly, blame it on fans rejecting "diversity." Don't they see they're disrespecting the character?

I don't know about that.  I mean even with his power set.  He's still a long time compatriot to cap and it kind of makes sense to hand over the title of cap to him as say Bucky.  Who was a Russian assassin And we saw how that worked out for him.  We even saw hawkeye cap.  You can say that the super soldier is also a direct connect to being blonde and blue eyed. Which of course was Hitler's dream.  But, it's suddenly a problem to give it to someone who isn't of that standard.  I think you can do just as much with him as Cap. Diving shield bombs of death from above.  Yes!

Eh....it does kind of go against prior established aspects of the character.  On the other hand; guy's worked with SHIELD, Cap etc....a pretty decent amount over the years.

It does seem like the concept of 'The Falcon" got some disrespect when he got his own version of The Falcon, series seemed to think that Falcon was Cap's side kick when he was intended to be a full on Partner/Equal.

Though over the years; whenever Cap get's replaced it almost always comes down to "Only Steve is the True Captain America".

Even had a issue once where a guy/elder of the unvierse tried to take him to the realm where "concepts" live or whatever so the dream of "Patriotism" would live on forever if I remember right.

It's kind of like RiRi over in Iron Man; if she's so much better than him at tech. etc.....why is she degrading herself by going by the name Iron Man and not just doing her own thing?

Admit-ably I've read almost nothing with her in it but still.

When you go out of your way to make a character so much better than the one they are replacing it does beg the question why downgrade yourself by naming yourself after an obsolete product?

Beyonce didn't call herself Madonna, Nikki Minaj didn't call herself Rihanna.  Or you know which ever of the two came first but you get my point.

With Falcon and Cap it at least makes sense, he's basically selected for a specific job or Position in the military that happens to be called "Captain America".

RiRi uses her own tech., can punch out techno-Ninja's and can make her own suits but chooses to call herself Iron-"Man"......how is that empowering females and not the exact opposite?  She couldn't have called herself Steel Woman or the Titanium Lady?

Metal Maiden?

Kind of saying that no matter how good you are, no matter how much you accomplish.....you still need to define yourself by men and it's better to be a man.

But I don't get that's the message they are intentionally trying to send.

Exactly.

True empowerment would involve these characters coming into their own as opposed to just being the temporary replacement for more established white men.  I think Miles Morales would be better received if he were, I dunno, Web-Man... or something.
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: therock on April 03, 2017, 08:19:21 PM
if he was a web man he be long forgottne by now


No one would by Mile Morales called

Miles morales the "who gives a fuck"

Also isnt he pretty well received
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: AP on April 03, 2017, 08:32:51 PM
if he was a web man he be long forgottne by now


No one would by Mile Morales called

Miles morales the "who gives a fuck"

Also isnt he pretty well received

If they don't buy him as Spider-Man and they don't buy him as an original superhero identity, then he's a shit character.
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: therock on April 03, 2017, 08:43:12 PM

Well Guess

Hal Jordon- And any Green Lantern after him
White Wally West- And Any flash after him
supergirl
Batgirl- including barbra, Casandra Cain, Stephaie Brown
Tim Dark, Damien Wayne
Scot Lang Antman
she Hulk
New Blue Beetle
batwoman
Mary Marvel


all all pretty shitty character


are some shit characters

If they don't buy him as Spider-Man and they don't buy him as an original superhero identity, then he's a shit character.
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: MTL76 on April 03, 2017, 08:55:32 PM
You're missing the point, rock. Hal Jordan, Kyle Raynor, Wally West,  Tim Drake, Damian Wayne, etc. did sell well, and did develop large fan following, because writers wrote great stories with them.
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: JookDukem on April 03, 2017, 08:57:33 PM
The world has changed. Comic books haven't. Not in any meaningful sense. This SJW movement is a misguided farce and the comic book community seems to recognize it as such for the most part.

I dont understand why we still have to follow a convoluted path to get a clear picture on any given storyline or character. Character A appears in like, 4 different books so in order to get the full picture you have to spend the time, energy and money to do so. That's always going to turn people off IMO.

I think thats an overlooked issue. It's certainly large reason why my friends and I eventually stopped reading altogether.

Also, comics are inherently low stakes. Nothing really matters. Everything gets reset every 20 years or so, if not much much sooner than that.

There's infinite potential within the genre but the way things are currently handled make everything seem stale.

Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: MTL76 on April 03, 2017, 09:02:26 PM
I don't think Marvel hates its core fans. But I do think they went way overboard trying to capture the SJW zeitgeist, thinking it would translate into increased sales, and also to virtue signal to the world how progressive they are, a goal that often contradicts with a company's - or country's own best interests (*cough* Sweden *cough*)

What they didn't realize is that SJWs don't buy comics, and the only way to appease them is to jump through progressively narrower and more ridiculous hoops, which will serve to alienate the core fans who actually buy comics. And once you get on the appeasement train, there's no stopping it. If Marvel backs off for an instant, or tempers their message one iota, those same SJWs will publicly lambast you as if you never did anything for them in the first place. Which Marvel, among others (*cough* Sweden *cough*) is in the process of learning.

This is in addition to the other excellent points made by Upper Krust and others: event fatigue, hero vs. hero fatigue, constantly restarting series at #1, lack of overall editorial vision, getting writers with little to no comic book experience and letting them run wild, diluting brands with too many similar heroes (how many fucking versions of Spider-Man do we need?), and so on.
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: therock on April 03, 2017, 09:08:05 PM
You're missing the point, rock. Hal Jordan, Kyle Raynor, Wally West,  Tim Drake, Damian Wayne, etc. did sell well, and did develop large fan following, because writers wrote great stories with them.

Yea but when they were introduce it was abrupt

Damien was morrison saying

"Son of the Demon in continuty now. He has a son... oh yea and batman got RAPED. Was him just knocking the boots. Batman was date raped.  Batman has a rape baby. Deal with it"

Kyle happen out one of the most controversal out of nowhere stories out there

Tim Drak was brought out because Jason died in a voting gimmik


And as for selling. As much bitching as thor gets, turns out currenly She Thor selling well
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: MTL76 on April 03, 2017, 09:11:26 PM
Damian was a nod to past continuity, by one of the certified geniuses of the field. His dynamic with Nightwing was genius. That's why he sold.

Kyle was controversial but developed a strong following because of excellent writing. Ditto for Tim.  That's what Marvel lacks.

Marvel's stories have been shit.
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More"
Post by: Upper_Krust on April 03, 2017, 09:12:38 PM
I'm of two minds on this issue, and I just this weekend gave my buddy on FB a large diatribe on the issue. I'm too lazy to repeat that here. Maybe when I'm home, I'll cut and paste large chunks of it. But my conflicting thoughts...

I'd be interested in seeing it.

Quote
1) The whole "HURR SJWs HURR" population are morons, and I don't ever want to be associated with them. For instance, you have mouth breathers who say stuff like, oh,  "Marvel is anti-male and anti-white!", and my eyes roll like soccer balls. I don't have time to deal with people for whom developing Down Syndrome would radically increase their cognitive process.


Its too conveniently easy to dismiss people and call them stupid to avoid coming up with actual rebuttals. Next thing you know you'll be demonizing such people and condoning violence against them.

Marvel have categorically shown via interviews and twitter posts that the vast bulk of their staff are left wing SJWs. That's simply a statement of fact.

They have also shown nothing but contempt for most of their white male characters (and by extension white male readers). They have been pushing the feminist agenda at the expense of (mainly white) male characters.

Quote
2) But that said, Marvel was ridiculously obvious with their whole "EVERYONE YOU LOVE IS REPLACED WITH MINORITIES NOW. DEAL WITH IT" strategy. In the span of 5 years or so, they created pandering version of Spidey, Thor, Hulk, Captain Marvel, Captain America (TWICE!), Iron Man, etc. It wasn't even remotely subtle or nuanced. And when the VAST MAJORITY of your fan base are straight, white males... you're going to get some kickback from those people who think anything that isn't 100% aimed at them (like everything else in their lives always has been) is an assault on their being.

Lazy analogy.

I can only speak for myself on this but I never had a problem supporting female lead or PoC lead titles in the past because those titles never spoke down to me as a white male the way many Marvel comics are doing now. I always judged a comic on its own merits not on the identity politics of its lead character.

Quote
And when just creating these characters isn't going to bring in new readers beyond maybe an introductory issue as a curiosity, you're likely to end up with a net loss in the short-term.

By 'new readers' I assume you mean non-white male readers and females?

If so, Marvel had a great recipe for introducing new characters/titles years ago. What they would do is have a Big Event, then introduce a new character or team title (pivotal to the Event). Marvel did this for several years running in the early 2000s under Joe Q and it was a big success.

They could have done this for the current crop.

Example #1: Marvel release the "Holy War" Event, which brings Ms. Marvel (Kamela Khan) to prominence (shes a girl who wants an education but extremists try to kill her for it, only they can't because of her mutation) - her book starts off the back of that.

Example #2: Marvel releases the "Race War" Event, part of that story revolves around RiRi Williams getting shot (by War Machine) - as a result she needs an artificial heart* (created by Stark Tech) that allows her to interface with all sorts of technology - her book starts off the back of that and it would also be interesting to have a War Machine title start on the back of that.

*guess what we call her.

Example #3: Marvel releases the "Gender War" Event (involving the X-Men), this centre's around an accident involving Rogue who inadvertantly swops the powers of male and female mutants- this leads into two books; the XX-Men and the XY-Women. e.g. Wolverine gets the powers of Rogue, she gets his powers, etc. Swop the whole cast.

Quote
As a LONG-TERM strategy, this could work, but you have to cultivate readers over time. You can't just say "WE GOT BLACK GIRLS NOW, EVERYONE!" and expect every young black woman in America to pick up a hobby they'd never considered before.

So yeah, I am not surprised that this movement has resulted in a deficit in sales. Coupled with all of Marvel's other problems, especially.

I wonder did it ever occur to Marvel that girls/women are not as interested in comic books to the same degree as boys/men...in the same way that women are more interested in fashion magazines, romance novels and 'celeb' gossip than men.

Likewise men are generally more interested in cars/engineering, fishing/hunting and video games.

I have no problem with the idea of courting more female readers but if the market for it was out there, why weren't the EXISTING female titles in 2012 (like Wonder Woman, Batwoman, Ms. Marvel, She-Hulk etc.) all at the top of the sales charts?

The answer is that the market simply is not there.
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: Upper_Krust on April 03, 2017, 09:14:39 PM
if he was a web man he be long forgottne by now


No one would by Mile Morales called

Miles morales the "who gives a fuck"

Also isnt he pretty well received

How about Spider-boy, given he's only 14 years old. Let him grow into becoming Spider-man rather than just being entitled to the name because...
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: MTL76 on April 03, 2017, 09:15:59 PM
Quote
I wonder did it ever occur to Marvel that girls/women are not as interested in comic books to the same degree as boys/men...in the same way that women are more interested in fashion magazines, romance novels and 'celeb' gossip than men.

Everyone knows this but no one is allowed to say it.

Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: therock on April 03, 2017, 09:18:44 PM
Damian was a nod to past continuity, by one of the certified geniuses of the field. His dynamic with Nightwing was genius. That's why he sold.

Kyle was controversial but developed a strong following because of excellent writing. Ditto for Tim.  That's what Marvel lacks.

Marvel's stories have been shit.

Then it has nothing to do with SJW..it has to do with bad writing. Which a lot of books that DONT include that element have sucked in marvel with all there reboots and events

also was arguing against t the idea, they suck just because the spin off from another character

When that would mean a lot of character we like suck base on that alone


And if they badly written..well that a fault of being badly written an not some agenda. As the artcile points out..a lot of books drop in Sale that were your books with white male and could be deemed as SJW

Mile Moraels run pretty well written
Mary Marvel has a fan base. Gwenpool pretty funny. A comic books always been political. SJW..were the oringal social Justice warriors

I mean the Xmen book
Gold Loves man kills
wasnt exaclt Subtle in its commentary

I think marvel was just trying out new shit

giving Solo his book and thinking sales..no more less misguided them giving a book to any minorty.



if he was a web man he be long forgottne by now


No one would by Mile Morales called

Miles morales the "who gives a fuck"

Also isnt he pretty well received

How about Spider-boy, given he's only 14 years old. Let him grow into becoming Spider-man rather than just being entitled to the name because...

I think you would STILL have people screaming SJW

remember this was ULTIMATE spiderman. They kill mother fuckers in that universe all the time. So why not see a new spidey in that universe..when you still got OLD G spiderman

Again why couldnt Hal Jordon be called..the BLUE LANTERN before he was introduce

Why did Damien have to take the Robin name
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: Gree on April 03, 2017, 09:31:20 PM
I don't think Marvel hates its core fans. But I do think they went way overboard trying to capture the SJW zeitgeist, thinking it would translate into increased sales, and also to virtue signal to the world how progressive they are, a goal that often contradicts with a company's - or country's own best interests (*cough* Sweden *cough*)

What they didn't realize is that SJWs don't buy comics, and the only way to appease them is to jump through progressively narrower and more ridiculous hoops, which will serve to alienate the core fans who actually buy comics. And once you get on the appeasement train, there's no stopping it. If Marvel backs off for an instant, or tempers their message one iota, those same SJWs will publicly lambast you as if you never did anything for them in the first place. Which Marvel, among others (*cough* Sweden *cough*) is in the process of learning.

This is in addition to the other excellent points made by Upper Krust and others: event fatigue, hero vs. hero fatigue, constantly restarting series at #1, lack of overall editorial vision, getting writers with little to no comic book experience and letting them run wild, diluting brands with too many similar heroes (how many fucking versions of Spider-Man do we need?), and so on.

PreAch.

I'm Supes pro diversity, but create a new, interesting character instead of just shoehorning shit
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: AP on April 03, 2017, 09:33:36 PM

Well Guess

Hal Jordon- And any Green Lantern after him
White Wally West- And Any flash after him
supergirl
Batgirl- including barbra, Casandra Cain, Stephaie Brown
Tim Dark, Damien Wayne
Scot Lang Antman
she Hulk
New Blue Beetle
batwoman
Mary Marvel


all all pretty shitty character


are some shit characters

If they don't buy him as Spider-Man and they don't buy him as an original superhero identity, then he's a shit character.

Except, all those characters aren't shit.  They were good characters who sold well and most of the characters you listed are legacy characters who have had 2-3 others who came before them.

Besides the entire point of Miles Morales, Kamala Khan, etc. is to establish diversity.  You can't have diversity by taking minorities and women by giving them "hand-me-downs".
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: therock on April 03, 2017, 09:42:55 PM

Well Guess

Hal Jordon- And any Green Lantern after him
White Wally West- And Any flash after him
supergirl
Batgirl- including barbra, Casandra Cain, Stephaie Brown
Tim Dark, Damien Wayne
Scot Lang Antman
she Hulk
New Blue Beetle
batwoman
Mary Marvel


all all pretty shitty character


are some shit characters

If they don't buy him as Spider-Man and they don't buy him as an original superhero identity, then he's a shit character.

Except, all those characters aren't shit.  They were good characters who sold well and most of the characters you listed are legacy characters who have had 2-3 others who came before them.

Besides the entire point of Miles Morales, Kamala Khan, etc. is to establish diversity.  You can't have diversity by taking minorities and women by giving them "hand-me-downs".

Well you dont KNOW their shit till your introduce them

No one sets out to introduce a shit character

I would argue the female character was to get FEMALE readers at the time. To say "You can be superheros to"

Thus my examples
supgirl
She Hulk
Batman- A LESBIAN no less who dont want to be part of batman group. Want to be like most Sista..who doing it for herself


A new blue beetle..YEA they figure hey put a  latino. sure that was part of it

Same with Jon Stewart. Dont know if they wanted an Asian spefically for Casandra Cain or not
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: therock on April 03, 2017, 09:47:13 PM
hell batwoman lover was Renee Monya a lesbian..who latino was change into a gay character

sure it was some people screaming at first

But he story arc in Gotham PD..was really fucking good
So was batmwoman

Both I think written by known gender Traitor Rucka. So you dont know..till you try. Sometime you got to tossed shit out there.
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: AP on April 03, 2017, 09:48:35 PM
I would argue the female character was to get FEMALE readers at the time. To say "You can be superheros to"

Thus my examples
supgirl
She Hulk
Batman- A LESBIAN no less who dont want to be part of batman group. Want to be like most Sista..who doing it for herself

Those weren't replacements.  They were just female versions of established heroes.


Quote
A new blue beetle..YEA they figure hey put a  latino. sure that was part of it

He was the third or fourth character to adopt the Blue Beetle mantle.  Having a new BB is expected.

Quote
Same with Jon Stewart. Dont know if they wanted an Asian spefically for Casandra Cain or not

Jon Stewart was the fourth Green Lantern of Earth to be introduced.  On top of that, there are literally millions of GL's, so fans could expect another version popping up every now and then.

As for Batgirl, Barbara had been retired for decades before Cassandra was introduced.
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: therock on April 03, 2017, 09:56:01 PM
an  the NEW miss marvel not a replacment- Let people still bitch
Gweenpool, Spider Gwen arent replaments. Let people still bitch

miles from an alternate universe. Not replacing spiderman and people STILL bitch
The Riri chick goes by iron maiden

In fact most of the so called SJW books aint replace anyone

Moon Girl minding her own buisness with her dinasours


I am sure cho Hulk going to last about much as Hercules in roll. Just something to fuck around with like Gordon Batman
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: therock on April 03, 2017, 09:58:50 PM
also keep in mind people bitch about Blue Beetle and Batwoman at the time. Stuff about stuff lesbian agenda. Rember Gotham PD, had a captain that was a lesbiand I think as well. Renne montanya was team up with a black guy. Sure it probally was the most SJW'ish book out there.


But they stuck with it, kept writing. Luckly it was good. But you dont know it good till its introduce. Sure they were trying to spread diversity. Since Bettle think happen around the time as firestorm being replace
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: MTL76 on April 03, 2017, 10:04:45 PM
Well you dont KNOW their shit till your introduce them

No one sets out to introduce a shit character

I would argue the female character was to get FEMALE readers at the time. To say "You can be superheros to"

Thus my examples
supgirl
She Hulk
Batman- A LESBIAN no less who dont want to be part of batman group. Want to be like most Sista..who doing it for herself


A new blue beetle..YEA they figure hey put a  latino. sure that was part of it

Same with Jon Stewart. Dont know if they wanted an Asian spefically for Casandra Cain or not

You know what, rock? If you're in charge of a multi-billion dollar company, and have been in the comics business for decades, you're supposed to have a pretty decent idea of whether or not a character is shit. You certainly shouldn't be putting out shit character after shit character.

The examples you give are all good examples of increasing diversity organically without sacrificing good storytelling or character development. Increasing diversity without making that the primary objective, which should always be good storytelling, not pandering. Contrast them to what Marvel has done recently.

Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: AP on April 03, 2017, 10:15:06 PM
an  the NEW miss marvel not a replacment- Let people still bitch

She is the replacement for Ms Marvel.  Carol became Captain Marvel.  I haven't seen too many complaints about her, though.  If people do complain, it's along the lines of "why can't she just be herself instead of being just another Marvel?".  Otherwise, I just don't think people care, thus she doesn't sell.

Quote
Gweenpool, Spider Gwen arent replaments. Let people still bitch

I haven't seen any bitching.  If they do, it's probably because people don't want alternate reality Gwens running around, I'm guessing.

Quote
miles from an alternate universe. Not replacing spiderman and people STILL bitch

They want to see a black superhero who is original.  That is the complaint you keep missing.  The rest of the comic readers probably just don't care, thus, he doesn't sell.

Quote
The Riri chick goes by iron maiden

I know.  People just don't care about her, thus, she doesn't sell.

Quote
Moon Girl minding her own buisness with her dinasours

No one bitches about her.  She just doesn't sell because... wait for it... no one cares.

If people were simply pissed that people of color were running around, then Luke Cage, Black Panther, Shang-Chi, etc. would never have become popular.
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: therock on April 03, 2017, 10:43:41 PM
an  the NEW miss marvel not a replacment- Let people still bitch

She is the replacement for Ms Marvel.  Carol became Captain Marvel.  I haven't seen too many complaints about her, though.  If people do complain, it's along the lines of "why can't she just be herself instead of being just another Marvel?".  Otherwise, I just don't think people care, thus she doesn't sell.

Quote
Gweenpool, Spider Gwen arent replaments. Let people still bitch

I haven't seen any bitching.  If they do, it's probably because people don't want alternate reality Gwens running around, I'm guessing.

Quote
miles from an alternate universe. Not replacing spiderman and people STILL bitch

They want to see a black superhero who is original.  That is the complaint you keep missing.  The rest of the comic readers probably just don't care, thus, he doesn't sell.

Quote
The Riri chick goes by iron maiden

I know.  People just don't care about her, thus, she doesn't sell.

Quote
Moon Girl minding her own buisness with her dinasours

No one bitches about her.  She just doesn't sell because... wait for it... no one cares.

If people were simply pissed that people of color were running around, then Luke Cage, Black Panther, Shang-Chi, etc. would never have become popular.

none of those last guys mention accept for panther sale well either

tons of people bitch about riri. he'll remember hearing people bitch here

and tons bitch about me marvel. also their actually sales well. moon girl sales great in trades apparently enough to keep her

also tons of non ethnic staring  books aren't making money at marvel not sure if show gets the blame

also against mikes pretty popular
and Thor like one if there top selling books

any new character black or white need to be connected to a name to sale

Well you dont KNOW their shit till your introduce them

No one sets out to introduce a shit character

I would argue the female character was to get FEMALE readers at the time. To say "You can be superheros to"

Thus my examples
supgirl
She Hulk
Batman- A LESBIAN no less who dont want to be part of batman group. Want to be like most Sista..who doing it for herself


A new blue beetle..YEA they figure hey put a  latino. sure that was part of it

Same with Jon Stewart. Dont know if they wanted an Asian spefically for Casandra Cain or not

You know what, rock? If you're in charge of a multi-billion dollar company, and have been in the comics business for decades, you're supposed to have a pretty decent idea of whether or not a character is shit. You certainly shouldn't be putting out shit character after shit character.

The examples you give are all good examples of increasing diversity organically without sacrificing good storytelling or character development. Increasing diversity without making that the primary objective, which should always be good storytelling, not pandering. Contrast them to what Marvel has done recently.



and at the time people were pissed at some if those moves

most new books fail. the few that don't is who we render

most t.v. shows fail those that make it is who we remember

all if there huge companies that had stuff shit the bed. Empire a top seller while other black shows didnt

blue beetle made the Asian male atom didn't

Batwoman made it. bathing didnt

Kyle was forced in. they turn the last green lantern into a murderer. you had the normal complaint and threats to leave

blue beetle got shot in the head

none of that shit was gradual

Batwoman people complain about gay agendas

people forget how much of a shit storm these were
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: MTL76 on April 03, 2017, 10:45:48 PM
Rock, I'm not sure what your point is anymore.

Marvel's current strategy isn't working. That isn't an opinion, it's a fact that they admit.

Why do YOU think it isn't working?
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: therock on April 03, 2017, 10:56:41 PM
Rock, I'm not sure what your point is anymore.

Marvel's current strategy isn't working. That isn't an opinion, it's a fact that they admit.

Why do YOU think it isn't working?

don't think it can be blame on she since so many white male books shitting the bed

and Thor doing well and as in the link 80s baby post the figures don't back sJw as a cause. it and easy scape goat

and from fans afraid of change or what something to rage  against

anti she can be as easy triggered as sJw

sJw is the new hipster. a term that that tossed around to much. same people who bitch when batwoman first shown her live for the snatch

by them saying it diversity it makes them thing. shit all we have to do is keep it white and not change anything else  ever

shit gets stagnant and boring

it showing the writers a bad lesson
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: MTL76 on April 03, 2017, 10:59:16 PM
So basically you agree with Marvel execs who are saying it's because fans hate change and diversity?
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: Gree on April 03, 2017, 11:03:14 PM
I do not understand how anyone could be this dense
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: therock on April 03, 2017, 11:09:46 PM
So basically you agree with Marvel execs who are saying it's because fans hate change and diversity?

no just the loudest one

they fail due to event fatigue
to many restarts
fucking over down and fantastic 4 to pissed of fox
to me books spinning if from dead pool and guardians
bad writing

saying it because of diversity don't match the numbere
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: MTL76 on April 03, 2017, 11:14:06 PM
Do you think replacing or mimicking so many well-established, well-liked flagship characters in a very short period of time may have had something to do with it?
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: therock on April 03, 2017, 11:32:18 PM
Do you think replacing or mimicking so many well-established, well-liked flagship characters in a very short period of time may have had something to do with it?

Sure for some. America deffintly a bullshit comic. But given most of the mainstream regular white male characters also shitting the bed not sure you can blame diversity. I mean Solo not exacly setting the world on fire. So not sure you can say if not for a black Spiderman Marvel would be selling like hotcake. No it multiple things like Trying to make Inhumans your new Xmen just because your having  catfight with Fox

Let you dont see many articles about that. It "OH DAMM sjw..PUSHING comics diversity down our throats". Those peole are always around.  And again MOST of new character not replacing the flag ships.  And the highest example on one doing Thor..is actully one of thier top selling comics. The mighty thor..an example use is the among thier TOP SELLING COMIC. The pure emotionless numbers just not with the argument that being made

Dont know if you can DIVERSITY when the sale figures dont match the argument

By saying "its diversity that the issue"

They may just continue with the same shit. Sometimes you got to introduce new guys and go through a shit storm to do it.
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: therock on April 03, 2017, 11:36:05 PM
Also sure introducing 103 new comic titles that relaunche or new didnt help either
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: g-train on April 03, 2017, 11:37:35 PM
if he was a web man he be long forgottne by now


No one would by Mile Morales called

Miles morales the "who gives a fuck"

Also isnt he pretty well received

How about Spider-boy, given he's only 14 years old. Let him grow into becoming Spider-man rather than just being entitled to the name because...

Well Parker called himself that back in the day; Spider-Man i mean and he was what?  15 when he started out?

Though Miles could call himself "Arachnos" or something I guess.
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: therock on April 03, 2017, 11:43:26 PM
also while new diverse reads may not be buying single books as much, they are buying trade


moongirl
All new wolverine
Thor
iron man doing well

probally somebody look. Hey cute little black girl with a dinosaur..that cute. I will get it. Guy takes it home to the kid and says here

kid says

"is this the one about the cave demons"

"No it something else"


in fact on single issue the new iron man series actully does pretty well
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: g-train on April 04, 2017, 12:20:39 AM
also while new diverse reads may not be buying single books as much, they are buying trade


moongirl
All new wolverine
Thor
iron man doing well

probally somebody look. Hey cute little black girl with a dinosaur..that cute. I will get it. Guy takes it home to the kid and says here

kid says

"is this the one about the cave demons"

"No it something else"


in fact on single issue the new iron man series actully does pretty well

Yeah; looked for stuff online before about Moongirl, decently written series but it's also aimed at a younger audience than most of the comics out nowadays.

Might be taking a hit from that.
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: Strawman Abridged on April 04, 2017, 12:26:44 AM
It just means red dinosaurs and sentient hammers are the kind of diversity fans are truly clamoring for.
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: JookDukem on April 04, 2017, 02:06:53 AM
I forget, does Rock have a legitimate reason for typing this way?

Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: therock on April 04, 2017, 02:52:03 AM
I forget, does Rock have a legitimate reason for typing this way?

gypsy curse
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: 80sBaby on April 04, 2017, 06:04:37 AM
Why are people using Ms. Marvel as an example of failure? Her book actually sells very well and she's one of the most popular new characters created in the last few years.
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: Snake-eyes on April 04, 2017, 08:31:18 AM
I do not understand how anyone could be this dense

It's rock, he always believes whatever talking points he hears first. just look at some of the debates he got into with guys like issue on the debate board.
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More
Post by: Hulkster on April 04, 2017, 09:31:07 AM
I forget, does Rock have a legitimate reason for typing this way?

Dyslexia

http://herochat.com/index.php?topic=6884.msg137035#msg137035
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: scourge on April 04, 2017, 09:45:50 AM
Most fucked up thing about this thread is how Project Corn Dog and Riv in a non-joking way righteously declared they can't consume any media that features Muslims in a positive light.

Guys what about your own groups? Think about it Riv, back when you were black you would have taken issue with someone saying something shitty like that about not wanting to see any Black People featured positively, right?

And ProjectCornDog, it feels like society is just beginning to accept homosexuals, and as soon as you get a step up you use it to piss all over the next group that is dealing with ostracism.

C'mon guys, open your hearts.
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’
Post by: Hulkster on April 04, 2017, 09:50:12 AM
Do you think replacing or mimicking so many well-established, well-liked flagship characters in a very short period of time may have had something to do with it?

Sure for some. America deffintly a bullshit comic. But given most of the mainstream regular white male characters also shitting the bed not sure you can blame diversity. I mean Solo not exacly setting the world on fire. So not sure you can say if not for a black Spiderman Marvel would be selling like hotcake. No it multiple things like Trying to make Inhumans your new Xmen just because your having  catfight with Fox

Let you dont see many articles about that. It "OH DAMM sjw..PUSHING comics diversity down our throats". Those peole are always around.  And again MOST of new character not replacing the flag ships.  And the highest example on one doing Thor..is actully one of thier top selling comics. The mighty thor..an example use is the among thier TOP SELLING COMIC. The pure emotionless numbers just not with the argument that being made

Dont know if you can DIVERSITY when the sale figures dont match the argument

By saying "its diversity that the issue"

They may just continue with the same shit. Sometimes you got to introduce new guys and go through a shit storm to do it.

America is not replacing an flagship character and has had only one issue out and we don't know the sale figures of it.  It is a bit shitty though IMO.
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’
Post by: therock on April 04, 2017, 11:09:35 AM
Do you think replacing or mimicking so many well-established, well-liked flagship characters in a very short period of time may have had something to do with it?

Sure for some. America deffintly a bullshit comic. But given most of the mainstream regular white male characters also shitting the bed not sure you can blame diversity. I mean Solo not exacly setting the world on fire. So not sure you can say if not for a black Spiderman Marvel would be selling like hotcake. No it multiple things like Trying to make Inhumans your new Xmen just because your having  catfight with Fox

Let you dont see many articles about that. It "OH DAMM sjw..PUSHING comics diversity down our throats". Those peole are always around.  And again MOST of new character not replacing the flag ships.  And the highest example on one doing Thor..is actully one of thier top selling comics. The mighty thor..an example use is the among thier TOP SELLING COMIC. The pure emotionless numbers just not with the argument that being made

Dont know if you can DIVERSITY when the sale figures dont match the argument

By saying "its diversity that the issue"

They may just continue with the same shit. Sometimes you got to introduce new guys and go through a shit storm to do it.

America is not replacing an flagship character and has had only one issue out and we don't know the sale figures of it.  It is a bit shitty though IMO.

a lot of the character people complaining about aren't replacing either
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: Snake-eyes on April 04, 2017, 11:22:43 AM
Everyone's point
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therock
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: therock on April 04, 2017, 11:28:34 AM
I do not understand how anyone could be this dense

It's rock, he always believes whatever talking points he hears first. just look at some of the debates he got into with guys like issue on the debate board.

Naaa I believe sales figures.

mighty thor is the no 2 best selling comics. Let me repeated. Might thor that people scream as an example..is the second best selling book at marvel. Even though she a so called replacment. There are the numbers these are the facts.
ms marvel sells well. Ms marvel again someone use as an example of SJW, replacing a hero. Sells Wells
all new wolverine making them money
Iron maiden doing ok and trade doing great

Meanwhile a lot of books with your normal while male penis having lead failing. But no one goes "shit guess fans dont like books about white people"
To me that confirmation bias



Everyone's point
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therock

That would make sense and be a vicious..vicious burn if it wasnt just me arguing this in this topic
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’
Post by: Hulkster on April 04, 2017, 11:37:58 AM
Do you think replacing or mimicking so many well-established, well-liked flagship characters in a very short period of time may have had something to do with it?

Sure for some. America deffintly a bullshit comic. But given most of the mainstream regular white male characters also shitting the bed not sure you can blame diversity. I mean Solo not exacly setting the world on fire. So not sure you can say if not for a black Spiderman Marvel would be selling like hotcake. No it multiple things like Trying to make Inhumans your new Xmen just because your having  catfight with Fox

Let you dont see many articles about that. It "OH DAMM sjw..PUSHING comics diversity down our throats". Those peole are always around.  And again MOST of new character not replacing the flag ships.  And the highest example on one doing Thor..is actully one of thier top selling comics. The mighty thor..an example use is the among thier TOP SELLING COMIC. The pure emotionless numbers just not with the argument that being made

Dont know if you can DIVERSITY when the sale figures dont match the argument

By saying "its diversity that the issue"

They may just continue with the same shit. Sometimes you got to introduce new guys and go through a shit storm to do it.

America is not replacing an flagship character and has had only one issue out and we don't know the sale figures of it.  It is a bit shitty though IMO.

a lot of the character people complaining about aren't replacing either

Sure.  They are complaining about it being an agenda filled book.    People like the character as previously portrayed in Teen Brigade, Young Avengers and currently in Ultimates.  Just like with Angela, they are potentially messing up the character by giving her to a writer who is writing specifically for a lesbian audience as opposed to simply writing good stories about a character who is lesbian.  Plus, the new Quasar is lesbian, so it appears that this is being shoved down everyone's throat. 
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: Kallor on April 04, 2017, 12:07:40 PM

Naaa I believe sales figures.

mighty thor is the no 2 best selling comics. Let me repeated. Might thor that people scream as an example..is the second best selling book at marvel. Even though she a so called replacment. There are the numbers these are the facts.

Unworthy Thor outsold Mighty Thor consistently throughout its run

http://www.comichron.com/monthlycomicssales/2016/2016-11.html

http://www.comichron.com/monthlycomicssales/2016/2016-12.html

http://www.comichron.com/monthlycomicssales/2017/2017-01.html

http://www.comichron.com/monthlycomicssales/2017/2017-02.html

I can't find March's sales.
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: shadowknight on April 04, 2017, 12:22:23 PM
The problem is ALL NEW ALL DIFFERENT, shouldn't mean same writer, same artist but we start everything back at number 1. Can someone tell me on all these "new comics" were was a new creative team answer Black Panther 1 of the few new writer and different tatake on BP. In a quest of " diversity" did anyone in Marvel ever ask  why do you have to willy nilly denagrate, demonize establish characters? Why was Iceman turned gay? What purpose did it serve?  Why is Falcon Cap America? What purpose did it serve? if you want to  promote gay chAracters here's an idea highlight the ones who wered gay from jump street instead of retroactively create a gay character when he was never gay. Northstar is gay why isn't  there a comic  with him in it? Want to highlight a positive Black superhero, here's an idea instead of killing off, putting into a coma or demoninizing a while male ( Cap America, Tony Stark)  uses your established characters ( Blue Marvel, Photon)
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’
Post by: therock on April 04, 2017, 12:24:30 PM
Do you think replacing or mimicking so many well-established, well-liked flagship characters in a very short period of time may have had something to do with it?

Sure for some. America deffintly a bullshit comic. But given most of the mainstream regular white male characters also shitting the bed not sure you can blame diversity. I mean Solo not exacly setting the world on fire. So not sure you can say if not for a black Spiderman Marvel would be selling like hotcake. No it multiple things like Trying to make Inhumans your new Xmen just because your having  catfight with Fox

Let you dont see many articles about that. It "OH DAMM sjw..PUSHING comics diversity down our throats". Those peole are always around.  And again MOST of new character not replacing the flag ships.  And the highest example on one doing Thor..is actully one of thier top selling comics. The mighty thor..an example use is the among thier TOP SELLING COMIC. The pure emotionless numbers just not with the argument that being made

Dont know if you can DIVERSITY when the sale figures dont match the argument

By saying "its diversity that the issue"

They may just continue with the same shit. Sometimes you got to introduce new guys and go through a shit storm to do it.

America is not replacing an flagship character and has had only one issue out and we don't know the sale figures of it.  It is a bit shitty though IMO.

a lot of the character people complaining about aren't replacing either

Sure.  They are complaining about it being an agenda filled book.    People like the character as previously portrayed in Teen Brigade, Young Avengers and currently in Ultimates.  Just like with Angela, they are potentially messing up the character by giving her to a writer who is writing specifically for a lesbian audience as opposed to simply writing good stories about a character who is lesbian.  Plus, the new Quasar is lesbian, so it appears that this is being shoved down everyone's throat.

Are you refering to Ms Marvel or other books. Again she seem to be still pretty popular

my point is some of the idea that there replacing male character not really true..because of the exampels people losing

Some of the examples people used of SJW books being the reason why marvel failing arent good examples becuase those book doing pretty well

Now are they some that force it. Yea. Quasar thing seems weird, America seem awfull, but some of the exampels people are using are terible exampels



Naaa I believe sales figures.

mighty thor is the no 2 best selling comics. Let me repeated. Might thor that people scream as an example..is the second best selling book at marvel. Even though she a so called replacment. There are the numbers these are the facts.

Unworthy Thor outsold Mighty Thor consistently throughout its run

http://www.comichron.com/monthlycomicssales/2016/2016-11.html

http://www.comichron.com/monthlycomicssales/2016/2016-12.html

http://www.comichron.com/monthlycomicssales/2017/2017-01.html

http://www.comichron.com/monthlycomicssales/2017/2017-02.html

I can't find March's sales.

accoriding to the link it been there no 2 recently

http://www.cbr.com/no-diversity-didnt-kill-marvels-comic-sales/
http://www.comichron.com/monthlycomicssales/2017/2017-02.html

"n February 2017, Marvel published only two ongoing superhero series that sold above 40,000 single issues: “The Amazing Spider-Man” (61,953) and “The Mighty Thor” (40,175). "


And in Jan..they been pretty damm close

http://www.comichron.com/monthlycomicssales/2017/2017-01.html


So Might Thor cant be blame for Marvel shitty sales
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: Upper_Krust on April 04, 2017, 12:59:41 PM
Naaa I believe sales figures.

mighty thor is the no 2 best selling comics. Let me repeated. Might thor that people scream as an example..is the second best selling book at marvel. Even though she a so called replacment. There are the numbers these are the facts.

Thor is indeed Marvels #2 selling (non-Event) superhero book. But its ranked #41 selling Comic of February. Its not 'a success' by any stretch its simply that the other Marvel books are selling EVEN LESS. Marvel's overall sales are down MASSIVELY.

Why is Thor still comparatively good compared to the rest? I can think of several factors. Firstly its one of the few titles with really good art. Secondly its basically the 'poster girl' for the female replacement characters and garnered a lot of media attention. Thirdly, Aaron comes up with good ideas (ie. Shi'ar-Asgard War) even if he always lets the reader down with the pay off.

Quote
ms marvel sells well. Ms marvel again someone use as an example of SJW, replacing a hero. Sells Wells

Ms Marvel #15, ranked #109th best selling comic of February. 19,870 sales est.

About 7-8 years ago I remember the Incredible Hercules title was cancelled because of poor sales...it was selling 24-27,000 copies/month (in its last 6 months). Marvel comics currently has DOZENS of titles selling below that threshold - Captain Marvel, Ms. Marvel, Hawkeye (female replacement), Totally Awesome Hulk, US Avengers, Nova, Black Widow, Uncanny Inhumans, Gwenpool, Karnak, Silk...and about another 20 I won't bother typing out.

...but as you say, its all about the sales figures.

I just happened to notice that back in 2009

Thor #603, ranked #16th in sales, selling over 65,000 copies.
Ms Marvel #45; ranked 79th in sales was selling over 30,000 copies.

Quote
all new wolverine making them money

Monthly ranking #80, 29,000 sales est.

...well below Old Man Logan DESPITE stealing Wolverine's name.

Quote
Iron maiden doing ok and trade doing great

Issue #4*, monthly ranking #56, 36,600 sales est.

*almost time for a new #1 you could say.

Quote
Meanwhile a lot of books with your normal while male penis having lead failing. But no one goes "shit guess fans dont like books about white people"

To me that confirmation bias

...couldn't be maybe they are writing their male characters like spineless, emo-cucks...could it?

...and even then Unworthy Thor outsold the Mighty Feminist.

Even in the books without female replacement characters their politics shine through - doesn't Jean Grey scold Angel for saving her life in the current X-book because she's a woman and doesn't need the help of a man. LOL.

We have a situation at Marvel where either:
1. Women replace male characters and generally steal their name/title (Thor, Hulk, Wolverine, Hawkeye, Iron Man, Ghost Rider)
2. Boys replace actual Men (Spider-man, Nova, Cho-Hulk, Cyclops)
3. Remaining White Men are further emasculated and/or killed (Logan - aged, Cap - aged; then made a Nazi, Thor - disabled and inadequate, Banner replaced then killed anyway, Tony 'killed' then replaced then made subservient A.I., Parker aged then routinely upstaged by wife and daughter)
Title: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: 80sBaby on April 04, 2017, 01:22:50 PM
The problem is ALL NEW ALL DIFFERENT, shouldn't mean same writer, same artist but we start everything back at number 1. Can someone tell me on all these "new comics" were was a new creative team answer Black Panther 1 of the few new writer and different tatake on BP. In a quest of " diversity" did anyone in Marvel ever ask  why do you have to willy nilly denagrate, demonize establish characters? Why was Iceman turned gay? What purpose did it serve?  Why is Falcon Cap America? What purpose did it serve? if you want to  promote gay chAracters here's an idea highlight the ones who wered gay from jump street instead of retroactively create a gay character when he was never gay. Northstar is gay why isn't  there a comic  with him in it? Want to highlight a positive Black superhero, here's an idea instead of killing off, putting into a coma or demoninizing a while male ( Cap America, Tony Stark)  uses your established characters ( Blue Marvel, Photon)

Falcon becoming Cap makes perfect sense. Steve was aged and could not be Captain America any longer so passed the mantle to his long-time friend/partner. Not much different than what happened with Bucky or Dick, for that matter. Not sure what the problem is now, all of a sudden?

Tony has also been replaced before so, again, what's the big deal? Because RiRi is new? Well, as stated above, Falcon isn't new and that still seems to be an issue. And they do promote minorities in other ways than replacing established heroes. This is just another way to do so and get a storyline/plot out of it. Hell, I'm not even convinced half the complainers were actually reading the previous Ironman run.
Title: Re:"Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: 80sBaby on April 04, 2017, 01:24:42 PM
Regarding sales figures (specifically Ms. Marvel), you also have to factor in digital sales, which I've been told Kamala does very well in.
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: therock on April 04, 2017, 02:04:10 PM
Naaa I believe sales figures.

mighty thor is the no 2 best selling comics. Let me repeated. Might thor that people scream as an example..is the second best selling book at marvel. Even though she a so called replacment. There are the numbers these are the facts.

Thor is indeed Marvels #2 selling (non-Event) superhero book. But its ranked #41 selling Comic of February. Its not 'a success' by any stretch its simply that the other Marvel books are selling EVEN LESS. Marvel's overall sales are down MASSIVELY.

Why is Thor still comparatively good compared to the rest? I can think of several factors. Firstly its one of the few titles with really good art. Secondly its basically the 'poster girl' for the female replacement characters and garnered a lot of media attention. Thirdly, Aaron comes up with good ideas (ie. Shi'ar-Asgard War) even if he always lets the reader down with the pay off.

Quote
ms marvel sells well. Ms marvel again someone use as an example of SJW, replacing a hero. Sells Wells

Ms Marvel #15, ranked #109th best selling comic of February. 19,870 sales est.

About 7-8 years ago I remember the Incredible Hercules title was cancelled because of poor sales...it was selling 24-27,000 copies/month (in its last 6 months). Marvel comics currently has DOZENS of titles selling below that threshold - Captain Marvel, Ms. Marvel, Hawkeye (female replacement), Totally Awesome Hulk, US Avengers, Nova, Black Widow, Uncanny Inhumans, Gwenpool, Karnak, Silk...and about another 20 I won't bother typing out.

...but as you say, its all about the sales figures.

I just happened to notice that back in 2009

Thor #603, ranked #16th in sales, selling over 65,000 copies.
Ms Marvel #45; ranked 79th in sales was selling over 30,000 copies.

Quote
all new wolverine making them money

Monthly ranking #80, 29,000 sales est.

...well below Old Man Logan DESPITE stealing Wolverine's name.

Quote
Iron maiden doing ok and trade doing great

Issue #4*, monthly ranking #56, 36,600 sales est.

*almost time for a new #1 you could say.

Quote
Meanwhile a lot of books with your normal while male penis having lead failing. But no one goes "shit guess fans dont like books about white people"

To me that confirmation bias

...couldn't be maybe they are writing their male characters like spineless, emo-cucks...could it?

...and even then Unworthy Thor outsold the Mighty Feminist.

Even in the books without female replacement characters their politics shine through - doesn't Jean Grey scold Angel for saving her life in the current X-book because she's a woman and doesn't need the help of a man. LOL.

We have a situation at Marvel where either:
1. Women replace male characters and generally steal their name/title (Thor, Hulk, Wolverine, Hawkeye, Iron Man, Ghost Rider)
2. Boys replace actual Men (Spider-man, Nova, Cho-Hulk, Cyclops)
3. Remaining White Men are further emasculated and/or killed (Logan - aged, Cap - aged; then made a Nazi, Thor - disabled and inadequate, Banner replaced then killed anyway, Tony 'killed' then replaced then made subservient A.I., Parker aged then routinely upstaged by wife and daughter)

if Thor the flagship feminist shouldn't it be the worst selling book. since she the excuse used for low selling books. and 41 good if all the other marvel books lower. least shows it not the cause of your companies problems

lot of the changes not she reason

some due to not wanting to help fox
old man Logan not emasculated Logan. that a spin off from a top storyline

cap only hydra due to cosmic cube part of the storyline is getting him back

iron man been a dick sense civil war
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: JookDukem on April 04, 2017, 02:11:59 PM
Just my opinion as a non-comic fan that was formerly into both Marvel and DC pretty hard....

RiRi is a stupid idea. So is female Thor. So is Asian Hulk. So is black Wally West. That's pandering to specific audiences.

No creativity. That shit is ridiculous.

It's not like there's a limit to imaginative thought.

It's entirely possible to create new characters, with good stories that make people care about them. There's no need to turn an existing character into someone else. Seems like lazy creativity at it's finest.

I hear support for these ideas yet not a single good argument on why they couldn't make each of these characters unique, separate and wholly their own.

Sure, you accept it. Okay. But why are you sitting there and not acknowledging that human beings have a near limitless imagination that could create new characters that stand on their own merit completely removed from established heroes?

Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: Upper_Krust on April 04, 2017, 02:59:05 PM
if Thor the flagship feminist shouldn't it be the worst selling book.

The sales have fallen 40% on the Mighty Thor in the past year.

As I mentioned in one of my opening posts of this thread, comic fans are SLOW to give up a book on characters they love. What we are seeing is the systematic abandoning of Marvel titles by fed up fans. But its a slow but constant decline.

We could argue all day on why (fem) Thor is doing as well as it is (comparatively to other Marvel books). Maybe its because its simply a better book than most of the others. I think Aaron is a good writer (politics and decompression aside) with good ideas and he has been consistently backed by good artists. Plus he started his run extremely strongly with the God Butcher arc - so that likely built him up a lot of good will.

Quote
since she the excuse used for low selling books. and 41 good if all the other marvel books lower. least shows it not the cause of your companies problems

On the contrary it shows how far Marvel sales have fallen.

But what does it say about Marvel's female characters that they have no original female leads in the top 100 selling books...that women are only valid if they pretend to be men and man-like?

Quote
lot of the changes not she reason

some due to not wanting to help fox
old man Logan not emasculated Logan. that a spin off from a top storyline.

cap only hydra due to cosmic cube part of the storyline is getting him back

iron man been a dick sense civil war

Turning white male characters from heroic figures to emasculated, aged, villainous, emo-cucks is the flip-side of the Feminist Agenda strategy.

1. Step One - build women up to be superior to men (in morality, intellect and power).
2. Step Two - simultaneously weaken and emasculate male characters at every opportunity.
Title: Re:"Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: 80sBaby on April 04, 2017, 03:02:09 PM
Just my opinion as a non-comic fan that was formerly into both Marvel and DC pretty hard....

RiRi is a stupid idea. So is female Thor. So is Asian Hulk. So is black Wally West. That's pandering to specific audiences.

No creativity. That shit is ridiculous.

It's not like there's a limit to imaginative thought.

It's entirely possible to create new characters, with good stories that make people care about them. There's no need to turn an existing character into someone else. Seems like lazy creativity at it's finest.

I hear support for these ideas yet not a single good argument on why they couldn't make each of these characters unique, separate and wholly their own.

Sure, you accept it. Okay. But why are you sitting there and not acknowledging that human beings have a near limitless imagination that could create new characters that stand on their own merit completely removed from established heroes?

I can't speak for others but, for me, I'm unbothered because:

A. It's only temporary. It's not like the original versions of these characters are going to be gone for good.

B. I understand how marketing works. A completely original character isn't going to sell as well as using the preexisting good-will that a "known" property has built up over the decades. As I said before, a Falcon book isn't going to sell as much as a Captain America book.

C. There's literally nothing that is truly "original" in fiction at this point. You can tweak things here and there but everything is derivative of something else.

D. It's happened before to all of these characters. It's not new so why are people suddenly up in arms? I don't recall all this furor over Bucky taking over for Captain America or Dick for Bruce. It wasn't called "pandering" or anything close to it. Why is that, I wonder?
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: Upper_Krust on April 04, 2017, 03:03:00 PM
I hear support for these ideas yet not a single good argument on why they couldn't make each of these characters unique, separate and wholly their own.

The reason is that would take imagination and effort. Whereas replacing characters with a female knock-off (or whatever) takes no imagination and no effort in character building, you just leech off the original character and hope their fans stick around long enough.
Title: Re:"Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: JookDukem on April 04, 2017, 04:03:48 PM
Just my opinion as a non-comic fan that was formerly into both Marvel and DC pretty hard....

RiRi is a stupid idea. So is female Thor. So is Asian Hulk. So is black Wally West. That's pandering to specific audiences.

No creativity. That shit is ridiculous.

It's not like there's a limit to imaginative thought.

It's entirely possible to create new characters, with good stories that make people care about them. There's no need to turn an existing character into someone else. Seems like lazy creativity at it's finest.

I hear support for these ideas yet not a single good argument on why they couldn't make each of these characters unique, separate and wholly their own.

Sure, you accept it. Okay. But why are you sitting there and not acknowledging that human beings have a near limitless imagination that could create new characters that stand on their own merit completely removed from established heroes?

I can't speak for others but, for me, I'm unbothered because:

A. It's only temporary. It's not like the original versions of these characters are going to be gone for good.

B. I understand how marketing works. A completely original character isn't going to sell as well as using the preexisting good-will that a "known" property has built up over the decades. As I said before, a Falcon book isn't going to sell as much as a Captain America book.

C. There's literally nothing that is truly "original" in fiction at this point. You can tweak things here and there but everything is derivative of something else.

D. It's happened before to all of these characters. It's not new so why are people suddenly up in arms? I don't recall all this furor over Bucky taking over for Captain America or Dick for Bruce. It wasn't called "pandering" or anything close to it. Why is that, I wonder?

A. That's part of the problem. Why even change them in the first place?

B. I completely disagree. Invincible was a fresh character. Who was written well and had a great story. Unique.

C. Agreed to a certain extent. However, you're simply downplaying the uniqueness of these new creations by calling them tweaks. Those changes to established archetypes serve to differentiate these new creations from established archetypes enough to garner a whole new fan base.

 Invincible is flying brick yes, but he and his universe are different enough to gain a whole slew of rabid fans. This could be done with RiRi as well. Jane too. Falcon too. I don't think there's any deny this. It takes hard work to do so. Many failures. I don't think you can honestly say Marvel or DC regularly out in the necessary effort in these departments.

D. Bucky becoming Cap was dumb. So was Nightwing becoming Batman. Just because it was done before doesn't mean it was a good decision.  That's lazy writing and creativity.
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: NeoGreenLantern on April 04, 2017, 04:43:20 PM
http://www.newsarama.com/33886-marvel-says-no-more-major-events-for-at-least-18-months-after-secret-empire.html

Seems like Marvel is aware of the actual problem but decided to blame in on diversity.
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: MTL76 on April 04, 2017, 04:58:06 PM
The best part will be when SJWs turn on Marvel like an angry, obese woman who gets to the ice cream store five minutes after closing.
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: Upper_Krust on April 04, 2017, 05:02:23 PM
The best part will be when SJWs turn on Marvel like an angry, obese woman who gets to the ice cream store five minutes after closing.

They already turned on Marvel and called for a boycott when it was revealed Ike Perlmutter donated $1 million* to Trump's veterans charity.

*of his own money no less
Title: Re:"Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: Hulkster on April 04, 2017, 05:12:55 PM
I can't speak for others but, for me, I'm unbothered because:

A. It's only temporary. It's not like the original versions of these characters are going to be gone for good.:

That's true, though that may not be true for one actual overlooked original version.  Iron Man will be back, yet James Rhodes is dead.  I don't think that it's coincidental that the first trade of Pak's run on War Machine is entitled "Iron Heart".  Rhodes is probably gone for good, yet Tony still will have a black protégé/sidekick along with the addition of a female protégé/sidekick.  Two birds with one stone.

A. That's part of the problem. Why even change them in the first place?


Those characters aren't going anywhere.  They will be around in some form or fashion after the originals are back with the added benefit of having gained a great amount of exposure they would not have gotten otherwise.

Quote
B. I completely disagree. Invincible was a fresh character. Who was written well and had a great story. Unique.

Invincible sold less than 12,000 copies in February and was ranked 174.   All characters have followers, but it's about sales and the sales standards of the big 2 would not have allowed Invincible to survive in those companies.

The sales have fallen 40% on the Mighty Thor in the past year.

As I mentioned in one of my opening posts of this thread, comic fans are SLOW to give up a book on characters they love. What we are seeing is the systematic abandoning of Marvel titles by fed up fans. But its a slow but constant decline.

Mighty Thor has dropped from a very high point and is current selling around Odinson's decent level.  Note that Unworthy Thor is a mini-series and people tend to finish those through.

Quote
We could argue all day on why (fem) Thor is doing as well as it is (comparatively to other Marvel books). Maybe its because its simply a better book than most of the others. I think Aaron is a good writer (politics and decompression aside) with good ideas and he has been consistently backed by good artists. Plus he started his run extremely strongly with the God Butcher arc - so that likely built him up a lot of good will.

Agreed.

Quote
But what does it say about Marvel's female characters that they have no original female leads in the top 100 selling books...that women are only valid if they pretend to be men and man-like?

It probably shows that female characters sell less, just like non-white characters.  Is there any real reason why Storm sells so poorly?  She's a unique character created by pretty much a comicbook legend and she has a following.  She can't maintain an ongoing for anything.

Quote
Turning white male characters from heroic figures to emasculated, aged, villainous, emo-cucks is the flip-side of the Feminist Agenda strategy.

1. Step One - build women up to be superior to men (in morality, intellect and power).
2. Step Two - simultaneously weaken and emasculate male characters at every opportunity.

It's not all about white males.  You simply don't have enough well established non-white lead characters to swap.  All you have is Panther really and he has actually been swapped twice.  Talk about emasculation:

(https://worldofblackheroes.files.wordpress.com/2011/06/queen-shuri.jpg)

And Kevin Cole is biracial:

(http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/marveldatabase/images/6/61/Black_Panther_Vol_3_54.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20080727220329)

Even Cage has gotten a taste of it:

(https://i1.wp.com/www.majorspoilers.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/IM2.jpg)
Title: Re:"Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: Upper_Krust on April 04, 2017, 05:20:13 PM
I can't speak for others but, for me, I'm unbothered because:

The problem with that approach is that if you keep paying for crap they'll keep feeding it to you.

Do you think for one second Marvel would have changed things back had sales not been steadily declining.

Quote
A. It's only temporary. It's not like the original versions of these characters are going to be gone for good.

Only because the sales are tanking. Had sales even been on a par then they would have kept the replacements and abandoned the legacy characters in the name of feminism/diversity.

Quote
B. I understand how marketing works. A completely original character isn't going to sell as well as using the preexisting good-will that a "known" property has built up over the decades. As I said before, a Falcon book isn't going to sell as much as a Captain America book.

Then how can something like Saga sell better than 90% of Marvel books?

I agree with you its harder for a new character to become popular, but its not impossible.

Personally I can see a good Falcon title selling better than the current (lefty, virtue signalling) Captain America Sam Wilson book. BUT here's the thing, if a book isn't good enough or interesting enough THEN IT WON'T SELL. Characters don't have a god-given right to have titles.

Quote
C. There's literally nothing that is truly "original" in fiction at this point. You can tweak things here and there but everything is derivative of something else.

'Original' is a subjective term.

All we know is that Marvel are not even trying to be original at this point.

Quote
D. It's happened before to all of these characters. It's not new so why are people suddenly up in arms?


...um, because its happening to 80% of Marvel superhero comics ALL AT ONCE.

Quote
I don't recall all this furor over Bucky taking over for Captain America or Dick for Bruce. It wasn't called "pandering" or anything close to it. Why is that, I wonder?

...because when its an isolated case its not pandering.

When its line-wide...then its pandering. Plus we know Marvel are doing this to tea-bag the mainstream media for brownie-points (no pun intended).
Title: Re:"Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: therock on April 04, 2017, 05:21:10 PM
Just my opinion as a non-comic fan that was formerly into both Marvel and DC pretty hard....

RiRi is a stupid idea. So is female Thor. So is Asian Hulk. So is black Wally West. That's pandering to specific audiences.

No creativity. That shit is ridiculous.

It's not like there's a limit to imaginative thought.

It's entirely possible to create new characters, with good stories that make people care about them. There's no need to turn an existing character into someone else. Seems like lazy creativity at it's finest.

I hear support for these ideas yet not a single good argument on why they couldn't make each of these characters unique, separate and wholly their own.

Sure, you accept it. Okay. But why are you sitting there and not acknowledging that human beings have a near limitless imagination that could create new characters that stand on their own merit completely removed from established heroes?

I can't speak for others but, for me, I'm unbothered because:

A. It's only temporary. It's not like the original versions of these characters are going to be gone for good.

B. I understand how marketing works. A completely original character isn't going to sell as well as using the preexisting good-will that a "known" property has built up over the decades. As I said before, a Falcon book isn't going to sell as much as a Captain America book.

C. There's literally nothing that is truly "original" in fiction at this point. You can tweak things here and there but everything is derivative of something else.

D. It's happened before to all of these characters. It's not new so why are people suddenly up in arms? I don't recall all this furor over Bucky taking over for Captain America or Dick for Bruce. It wasn't called "pandering" or anything close to it. Why is that, I wonder?

A. That's part of the problem. Why even change them in the first place?

B. I completely disagree. Invincible was a fresh character. Who was written well and had a great story. Unique.

C. Agreed to a certain extent. However, you're simply downplaying the uniqueness of these new creations by calling them tweaks. Those changes to established archetypes serve to differentiate these new creations from established archetypes enough to garner a whole new fan base.

 Invincible is flying brick yes, but he and his universe are different enough to gain a whole slew of rabid fans. This could be done with RiRi as well. Jane too. Falcon too. I don't think there's any deny this. It takes hard work to do so. Many failures. I don't think you can honestly say Marvel or DC regularly out in the necessary effort in these departments.

D. Bucky becoming Cap was dumb. So was Nightwing becoming Batman. Just because it was done before doesn't mean it was a good decision.  That's lazy writing and creativity.


With B, it always exception to ever rule. But it generly MUCH..MUCH harder. And that does Well by Image standards..not sure the sale figures of that compared to marvel and DC. And that not even factoring in Race, and trying to sale a character that not the standard white dude.


point with D..heard a lot less people bitching

As For Cap...that clear part of a storyline.  Just like when Superman died so they intrudce 4 new character, 3 of which had some long staying power
It like people havnet read comics. The story and driving force will be changing Cap back. it equilvian of Don betraying the team in the fast and furious movie, or Optimus turning bad in the transformer movie

or teen titans fight a possed JLA.  It like people havent read comics before.



if Thor the flagship feminist shouldn't it be the worst selling book.

The sales have fallen 40% on the Mighty Thor in the past year.

As I mentioned in one of my opening posts of this thread, comic fans are SLOW to give up a book on characters they love. What we are seeing is the systematic abandoning of Marvel titles by fed up fans. But its a slow but constant decline.

We could argue all day on why (fem) Thor is doing as well as it is (comparatively to other Marvel books). Maybe its because its simply a better book than most of the others. I think Aaron is a good writer (politics and decompression aside) with good ideas and he has been consistently backed by good artists. Plus he started his run extremely strongly with the God Butcher arc - so that likely built him up a lot of good will.

Quote
since she the excuse used for low selling books. and 41 good if all the other marvel books lower. least shows it not the cause of your companies problems

On the contrary it shows how far Marvel sales have fallen.

But what does it say about Marvel's female characters that they have no original female leads in the top 100 selling books...that women are only valid if they pretend to be men and man-like?

Quote
lot of the changes not she reason

some due to not wanting to help fox
old man Logan not emasculated Logan. that a spin off from a top storyline.

cap only hydra due to cosmic cube part of the storyline is getting him back

iron man been a dick sense civil war

Turning white male characters from heroic figures to emasculated, aged, villainous, emo-cucks is the flip-side of the Feminist Agenda strategy.

1. Step One - build women up to be superior to men (in morality, intellect and power).
2. Step Two - simultaneously weaken and emasculate male characters at every opportunity.


But here the thing. MOST marvel books have dropped. Including straight white ones. Blaming it all on diversity is wrong. it only fits if all your books with your standard white male straight hero..did gangbuster and only diverse books shit the bed. And wouldnt bring up thor as an example if people didnt bringing it as a example of sjw failing.  if there that shitty, pick another example

As for what new books have an orginal character. Most original character in mavel shit the bed. As I said Fool killer and Solo aint setting the world on fire. In fact people complain about the new ms marvel...

1) Ms Marvel still around..fact she has a the word CAP in her name doesnt change
2) I bet a lot of people bitching havent read a ms marvel comic in years..and probally give two shits about them

As for making people cucks and feminsit agneda. Most of that overplayed. Yea Ice man being gay was dumb.  But people are way to affraid of becoming cucks. Old man Logan pretty fucking bad ass. Hell it inspired the best Wolverine movie..maybe the best Xmen movie


http://www.newsarama.com/33886-marvel-says-no-more-major-events-for-at-least-18-months-after-secret-empire.html

Seems like Marvel is aware of the actual problem but decided to blame in on diversity.

Well they know how to play the internet.
Title: Re:"Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: Hulkster on April 04, 2017, 05:36:19 PM
Then how can something like Saga sell better than 90% of Marvel books?

I agree with you its harder for a new character to become popular, but its not impossible.

Personally I can see a good Falcon title selling better than the current (lefty, virtue signalling) Captain America Sam Wilson book. BUT here's the thing, if a book isn't good enough or interesting enough THEN IT WON'T SELL. Characters don't have a god-given right to have titles.

Saga is not a superhero comic.  By that token, Star Wars Darth Maul is outselling everyone and it's put out by Marvel.  I don't think that you are being honest with yourself regarding a Falcon title.  When Falcon was co-titled with Captain America a few years ago, it didn't even last a year.  Minority characters and female characters don't sell regardless of quality.
Title: Re:"Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: Upper_Krust on April 04, 2017, 06:00:30 PM
Invincible sold less than 12,000 copies in February and was ranked 174.   All characters have followers, but it's about sales and the sales standards of the big 2 would not have allowed Invincible to survive in those companies.

In February Invincible outsold:

Scarlet Witch, Prowler, Great Lakes Avengers, Moon Girl and Devil Dinosaur and Mosaic from Marvel.

If Invincible was set in either the Marvel Universe or DCU it would easily be selling x3-5 more copies. Also you could argue Invincible has dropped a little since the Viltrumite war, although at best it was selling 15-20k/month.

Anything over 10k is great for an Image book.

Quote
Mighty Thor has dropped from a very high point and is current selling around Odinson's decent level.  Note that Unworthy Thor is a mini-series and people tend to finish those through.

By 'very high point' I assume you mean from the TWO #1's for female Thor so far.

Quote
Quote
But what does it say about Marvel's female characters that they have no original female leads in the top 100 selling books...that women are only valid if they pretend to be men and man-like?

It probably shows that female characters sell less, just like non-white characters.


The female comic market (outside of manga*) is 10% or less of the total Market. That's why, historically, female lead titles comprised about 10% of the comics. Unlike now at Marvel where female leads are about 50% (of single character titles).

*which is a bit more emo.

Quote
Is there any real reason why Storm sells so poorly?  She's a unique character created by pretty much a comicbook legend and she has a following.  She can't maintain an ongoing for anything.

I'm not a big X-Men fan at all, so I don't really know what makes Storm unique beyond being a white-haired black woman.

But the easy way to do a Storm book is make her pivotal to an Event then spin her solo title off the back of a big Event. Give her some strong new villains and try to give the book a unique slant or two, plus build-up to something personal happening at the end of the first year to kickstart interest in year 2.

That said, has ANY X-character outside of Wolverine EVER held a consistent solo series?

Quote
Quote
Turning white male characters from heroic figures to emasculated, aged, villainous, emo-cucks is the flip-side of the Feminist Agenda strategy.

1. Step One - build women up to be superior to men (in morality, intellect and power).
2. Step Two - simultaneously weaken and emasculate male characters at every opportunity.

It's not all about white males.  You simply don't have enough well established non-white lead characters to swap.  All you have is Panther really and he has actually been swapped twice.  Talk about emasculation:

I jokingly mentioned to someone a few days ago they'll come for the non-white male characters once all the white men are eradicated and he pointed out they already gender-swopped Black Panther a few years ago.

I understand its not simply white male characters but that's who the Feminist Agenda targets first...in the name of diversity of course.
Title: Re:"Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: Upper_Krust on April 04, 2017, 06:30:40 PM
Saga is not a superhero comic.  By that token, Star Wars Darth Maul is outselling everyone and it's put out by Marvel.
 

Why does a book set in a Superhero Universe need to be about superheroes?

Is Swamp Thing not a horror comic? Is Punisher not a Crime Drama? Was Annihilation not Sci-fi?

Just because a story exists in the MCU doesn't mean it has to be about Superheroes.

Personally I think that is where Marvel are going wrong. They have about 30 female titles and they all seem to hinge on identity politics. The CLASSIC core titles all had a U.S.P.

- Spiderman was about Growing Up/Teen Troubles
- Captain America was about Patriotism
- Fantastic Four was about Family...and to a lesser extent Science Fiction
- Thor was about Masculinity/being a Man (but could also have tackled Religion)
- X-Men was about Minorities
- Hulk was about Psychology/Anger Issues
- Daredevil was about Crime and Punishment
- Doctor Strange was about Mysticism
- Avengers was about Friendships/Relationships

What are Marvel's female titles about now?

A. Women being tougher than men (America, Captain Marvel, Thor, Hulk/Jen)
B. Women being smarter than men (Iron Man/RiRi, Wasp, Moon Girl)
C. Women being perfect (every title it seems*)
D. Some sort of Lesbian angle**

*an exaggeration I'm sure.
**don't have a problem with such a character but if women comprise at best 10% of the comics market and Lesbians are 2% of women who exactly are you marketing this title 'AT' with such a focus...the 0.2% of the market comprised of lesbian comic readers?

Quote
I don't think that you are being honest with yourself regarding a Falcon title.


I can't say as I wasn't reading it. But then I've never bought a Captain America comic either.

Quote
When Falcon was co-titled with Captain America a few years ago, it didn't even last a year.  Minority characters and female characters don't sell regardless of quality.

Then the thing to do, much like the movies, is to have minority and female characters as supporting cast members OR part of team books.
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: MTL76 on April 04, 2017, 06:35:33 PM
Another thing that really pisses me off about SJWs was their reaction to the casting of the Iron Fist series. They made it sound like Marvel was starting another Opium War. They say the entire Iron Fist mythology is "problematic" because of cultural appropriation, and at the same time they claim to be "long time" fans of the Iron Fist comic.
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: ProjectCornDog on April 04, 2017, 06:43:40 PM
Another thing that really pisses me off about SJWs was their reaction to the casting of the Iron Fist series. They made it sound like Marvel was starting another Opium War. They say the entire Iron Fist mythology is "problematic" because of cultural appropriation, and at the same time they claim to be "long time" fans of the Iron Fist comic.

The whole point of Iron Fist is that it's an outsider who came in, took the mantle, and then left again Makes it harder to believe if he also like them (in this case, asian) I'm glad the audience score is solid on RT
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: scourge on April 04, 2017, 06:53:57 PM
I was also unhappy about people feeling him being white was an issue when he's a white character in literally every single media portrayal to date but now he shouldn't be?
I mean fine if they want to experiment with that, I don't care, but if they don't want to I also don't see itas a problem. Not everyone trained in the martial arts in fiction has to be Asian in fiction, do they?
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: MTL76 on April 04, 2017, 07:16:50 PM
They keep saying Iron Fist is "problematic." They don't see that Iron Fist isn't a story of exploiting Asian culture, but venerating it. Danny gave himself to K'un L'un and it saved his life.

Also, why is his back story such a problem now? He's been around for decades. But it's only once his show is announced that he becomes "problematic." Why? Because they didn't even know who the fuck Iron Fist was until his show was announced, and then they rushed to Wikipedia. It only reinforces the obvious, that these SJWs don't read comics and aren't comic book fans.

Until Marvel made this recent announcement, I was fully expecting Iron Fist to be the next character to be replaced. It's like Invasion of the Body Snatchers up in this bitch!
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: Ramz on April 04, 2017, 07:47:12 PM
wow this shit exploded. Too get back to my issue on page 3, I think to say diversity isn't AT ALL a problem is pretty out right ignorant imo. I'm not saying a comic about a tranny hero struggling with his/her identity can't be an amazing story or anything, I'm simply saying that it's much more difficult to sell the idea when your target is 30 plus white males. You would definitely lose your audience earlier on with minor missteps than you would say, a conventional male hero.

It might not be the main problem, but it is a problem.
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: MTL76 on April 04, 2017, 08:04:55 PM
Let's be honest, a tranny hero would make the Herochat banner in a heartbeat.
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: therock on April 04, 2017, 08:48:31 PM
wow this shit exploded. Too get back to my issue on page 3, I think to say diversity isn't AT ALL a problem is pretty out right ignorant imo. I'm not saying a comic about a tranny hero struggling with his/her identity can't be an amazing story or anything, I'm simply saying that it's much more difficult to sell the idea when your target is 30 plus white males. You would definitely lose your audience earlier on with minor missteps than you would say, a conventional male hero.

It might not be the main problem, but it is a problem.

Well it more that its the promblem that seem to be given 99.9999999999 percent of the blame with people scraming about being Cuck, and SJW runinging everything. With a rare...ok maybe the bi monthly event..and renumber it 1000 times might have SOMETHING to do with it

sure ice man thing was dumb, America comic suck.  And the iron fist controversy also dumb as shit. No one disputing that.

It just the SJW stuff over exagerrated due to its an easy scapegoat. and people own persoanl hang ups
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: NeoGreenLantern on April 04, 2017, 11:45:47 PM
wow this shit exploded. Too get back to my issue on page 3, I think to say diversity isn't AT ALL a problem is pretty out right ignorant imo. I'm not saying a comic about a tranny hero struggling with his/her identity can't be an amazing story or anything, I'm simply saying that it's much more difficult to sell the idea when your target is 30 plus white males. You would definitely lose your audience earlier on with minor missteps than you would say, a conventional male hero.

It might not be the main problem, but it is a problem.

There is some over saturation going on but a lot of the titles were doing well. Ms. Marvel has actually done pretty good same with Miles Morales. Spider-Gwen and Gwenpool have both been top 100 titles. A lot of these titles number dip during and after events though.
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: ProjectCornDog on April 05, 2017, 07:30:48 AM
wow this shit exploded. Too get back to my issue on page 3, I think to say diversity isn't AT ALL

Agreed, who is itching to read about a Muslim Super hero?  Just what people want to read, women who wear oppressive clothing and follow violent prophets. How do these characters not boost sales!?
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: 80sBaby on April 05, 2017, 07:47:36 AM
wow this shit exploded. Too get back to my issue on page 3, I think to say diversity isn't AT ALL

Agreed, who is itching to read about a Muslim Super hero?  Just what people want to read, women who wear oppressive clothing and follow violent prophets. How do these characters not boost sales!?

Considering Kamala's popularity, apparently a lot of people want to read about a Muslim hero. You should be more open minded.
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: ProjectCornDog on April 05, 2017, 08:30:16 AM
wow this shit exploded. Too get back to my issue on page 3, I think to say diversity isn't AT ALL

Agreed, who is itching to read about a Muslim Super hero?  Just what people want to read, women who wear oppressive clothing and follow violent prophets. How do these characters not boost sales!?

Considering Kamala's popularity, apparently a lot of people want to read about a Muslim hero. You should be more open minded.


Popularity where? Unless that book stands out, this topic is about how these decisions are resulting in DROPPING of sales.

And open-minded to what? A barbaric religion? Chastity clothing?
Title: Re:"Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: 80sBaby on April 05, 2017, 08:51:29 AM


Popularity where? Unless that book stands out, this topic is about how these decisions are resulting in DROPPING of sales.

And open-minded to what? A barbaric religion? Chastity clothing?

If you actually followed talk on multiple forums, as well as the aforementioned digital sales, you'd see her popularity is pretty high amongst fans and critics.

And open minded to the idea that the book isn't about what you're describing. You sound ignorant.
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’
Post by: Hulkster on April 05, 2017, 09:06:22 AM
What is "chastity clothing"?  Underwear?
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: Upper_Krust on April 05, 2017, 12:32:47 PM
While I am not on the side of the 'progressives' but OF ALL the Marvel choices over the past few years I actually think Kamela Khan is a very positive role model.

Women and especially young girls are denied many rights and even education in the middle east (and elsewhere) and I think its a bold step in the right direction.

However, a few things of note. I only have a peripheral interest in her Marvel appearances but what limited exposure I did have didn't exactly inspire me with confidence. I mean there was a book recently where the villains were the American soldiers (or something along those lines). So rather than tackle the real issues and problems of the middle east through the lens of her stories they still played the SJW game with 'whitey' being the bad guy. Now it could be that was a one-off story and the rest of the time they do address the actual problems facing girls in the middle east, but I'd be willing to bet that, given the author, they generally don't.

So two steps forward from Marvel and one step back on this front.
Title: Re:"Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: Hulkster on April 05, 2017, 12:38:08 PM
Then the thing to do, much like the movies, is to have minority and female characters as supporting cast members OR part of team books.

Tossing minorities the crumbs or tokenism is nothing new.  That would just be maintaining the status quo.  I disagree that the movies do this.  The movies are significantly more successful with minority and female lead roles.  It's why a Blade movie could be successful enough to have two sequels while a Blade comic can barely last a few issues.  Heck, Blade is the first of Marvel's modern day slate of theatrical releases.

This really goes to show how different the Marvel movie audience is compared to the traditional comicbook audience.  Comicbook fanboys are pretty set in their ways.
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: NeoGreenLantern on April 05, 2017, 01:33:21 PM
wow this shit exploded. Too get back to my issue on page 3, I think to say diversity isn't AT ALL

Agreed, who is itching to read about a Muslim Super hero?  Just what people want to read, women who wear oppressive clothing and follow violent prophets. How do these characters not boost sales!?

Considering Kamala's popularity, apparently a lot of people want to read about a Muslim hero. You should be more open minded.


Popularity where? Unless that book stands out, this topic is about how these decisions are resulting in DROPPING of sales.

And open-minded to what? A barbaric religion? Chastity clothing?

Ms  Marvel was doing just as good as Wonder Woman for a while until they decided to put her on The Avengers and even then she was still doing better than most of Marvel titles.
Title: Re:"Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: ProjectCornDog on April 05, 2017, 02:08:52 PM


Popularity where? Unless that book stands out, this topic is about how these decisions are resulting in DROPPING of sales.

And open-minded to what? A barbaric religion? Chastity clothing?

If you actually followed talk on multiple forums, as well as the aforementioned digital sales, you'd see her popularity is pretty high amongst fans and critics.

And open minded to the idea that the book isn't about what you're describing. You sound ignorant.

I never said the book is about that, you sound ignorant. I wouldn't care if she was Arab, actually I'd welcome it because I don't think Arabs are painted in good light but to make her a Muslim? And make it obvious? No, bad.
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: NeoGreenLantern on April 05, 2017, 02:25:41 PM
yes yes we get it. The idea of moderate Muslims in America offense you.
Title: Re:"Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: 80sBaby on April 05, 2017, 02:41:41 PM


Popularity where? Unless that book stands out, this topic is about how these decisions are resulting in DROPPING of sales.

And open-minded to what? A barbaric religion? Chastity clothing?

If you actually followed talk on multiple forums, as well as the aforementioned digital sales, you'd see her popularity is pretty high amongst fans and critics.

And open minded to the idea that the book isn't about what you're describing. You sound ignorant.

I never said the book is about that, you sound ignorant. I wouldn't care if she was Arab, actually I'd welcome it because I don't think Arabs are painted in good light but to make her a Muslim? And make it obvious? No, bad.

You specifically did infer that was what the book is about. And since I've actually read the book in question, I'm speaking from a place of knowledge. You haven't, which is literal ignorance of the subject matter.

yes yes we get it. The idea of moderate Muslims in America offense you.

Exactly.
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: JookDukem on April 05, 2017, 02:47:40 PM
Yeah. Kinda odd that you're okay with the idea of an Arab woman but aren't okay with an Arab Muslim.
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: NeoGreenLantern on April 05, 2017, 03:39:11 PM
Listen a Muslim American from Jersey City should never have any representation in a positive light.
Title: Re:"Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: Upper_Krust on April 05, 2017, 06:16:18 PM
Tossing minorities the crumbs or tokenism is nothing new. 
That would just be maintaining the status quo.

So what? If the Market isn't there to sustain one or more black lead titles you can't magically expand the market out of your ass. Your best bet is to try and get white male readers to buy it.

If its a minority market, then there are less people within the core demographic you are targeting.

I was watching BBC world news or some similar show last night and they were reporting from South Africa and in the background was a billboard for what looked like a tv cop show and as it happened all the four characters on the billboard were black. My point is, South Africa probably has lots of shows with primarily only Black Actors or at least Black leads, despite the 9% white population, because THERE white folks are the MINORITY.

Quote
I disagree that the movies do this.  The movies are significantly more successful with minority and female lead roles.  It's why a Blade movie could be successful enough to have two sequels while a Blade comic can barely last a few issues.  Heck, Blade is the first of Marvel's modern day slate of theatrical releases.

The first Blade movie only JUST made money at the box office (in fact arguably it didn't make money until dvd sales). Same for Blade 2. Blade Trinity LOST money at the box office.

If a typical white male hero comic sells 40,000 in the US to the 105 million or so white men who comprise its predominant audience.
Then what should a black male hero comic sell to the 15 million or so black men who make up its predominant target audience?

Incidentally 1/8th of 40k is 5000.

Now YES we both understand you don't need to be the same colour or gender to enjoy a comic or movie or anything.

But by demographics alone the Market can probably sustain one black lead title for every 8 white leads. I'd estimate the same number of female lead titles could be sustained (about 1:8 ). Beyond that, you need to make the white male readers interested in the character/book for it to be sustainable.

If anything its the Hispanic community in the US that is vastly underrepresented in comics...its just a pity the America book is a complete SJ-fest.

Quote
This really goes to show how different the Marvel movie audience is compared to the traditional comicbook audience.  Comicbook fanboys are pretty set in their ways.

Not sure I agree with this; you understand of course that EVERY SINGLE Female lead title or non-white lead title has been (for its duration) sustained primarily by white male readers.

Exactly what more do you want white male readers to do...abandon reading titles with white male characters to prop up the sales of minority and female lead books? You could argue Marvel have tried to make that decision for them by replacing white male characters. Not working out great though is it.
Title: Re:"Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: ProjectCornDog on April 05, 2017, 08:17:47 PM
You specifically did infer that was what the book is about. And since I've actually read the book in question, I'm speaking from a place of knowledge. You haven't, which is literal ignorance of the subject matter.

Quote me then. Tell me when I explained the story of the book.

yes yes we get it. The idea of moderate Muslims in America offense you.

I know thats how many liberals react to things they don't approve of, they get offended, but Islam doesn't offend me. What am I to be offended about?

Yeah. Kinda odd that you're okay with the idea of an Arab woman but aren't okay with an Arab Muslim.

I'm shocked a fellow minority doesn't see the difference between a race and a religion.
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: JookDukem on April 05, 2017, 08:49:14 PM
You seem to be confused. Why is an Arab woman being Muslim "no, bad"?
Title: Re:"Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: NeoGreenLantern on April 05, 2017, 08:51:41 PM
I never said the book is about that, you sound ignorant. I wouldn't care if she was Arab, actually I'd welcome it because I don't think Arabs are painted in good light but to make her a Muslim? And make it obvious? No, bad.

Right there. It sounds like you are offended by the idea of a Muslim superhero in general.

Also, if you are not offended by Islam then why do feel so passionate about their not being a Muslim superhero?

Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: JookDukem on April 05, 2017, 08:53:04 PM
Hence the confusion.
Title: Re:"Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: therock on April 05, 2017, 09:18:45 PM
Tossing minorities the crumbs or tokenism is nothing new. 
That would just be maintaining the status quo.

So what? If the Market isn't there to sustain one or more black lead titles you can't magically expand the market out of your ass. Your best bet is to try and get white male readers to buy it.

If its a minority market, then there are less people within the core demographic you are targeting.

I was watching BBC world news or some similar show last night and they were reporting from South Africa and in the background was a billboard for what looked like a tv cop show and as it happened all the four characters on the billboard were black. My point is, South Africa probably has lots of shows with primarily only Black Actors or at least Black leads, despite the 9% white population, because THERE white folks are the MINORITY.

Quote
I disagree that the movies do this.  The movies are significantly more successful with minority and female lead roles.  It's why a Blade movie could be successful enough to have two sequels while a Blade comic can barely last a few issues.  Heck, Blade is the first of Marvel's modern day slate of theatrical releases.

The first Blade movie only JUST made money at the box office (in fact arguably it didn't make money until dvd sales). Same for Blade 2. Blade Trinity LOST money at the box office.

If a typical white male hero comic sells 40,000 in the US to the 105 million or so white men who comprise its predominant audience.
Then what should a black male hero comic sell to the 15 million or so black men who make up its predominant target audience?

Incidentally 1/8th of 40k is 5000.

Now YES we both understand you don't need to be the same colour or gender to enjoy a comic or movie or anything.

But by demographics alone the Market can probably sustain one black lead title for every 8 white leads. I'd estimate the same number of female lead titles could be sustained (about 1:8 ). Beyond that, you need to make the white male readers interested in the character/book for it to be sustainable.

If anything its the Hispanic community in the US that is vastly underrepresented in comics...its just a pity the America book is a complete SJ-fest.

Quote
This really goes to show how different the Marvel movie audience is compared to the traditional comicbook audience.  Comicbook fanboys are pretty set in their ways.

Not sure I agree with this; you understand of course that EVERY SINGLE Female lead title or non-white lead title has been (for its duration) sustained primarily by white male readers.

Exactly what more do you want white male readers to do...abandon reading titles with white male characters to prop up the sales of minority and female lead books? You could argue Marvel have tried to make that decision for them by replacing white male characters. Not working out great though is it.

http://www.boxofficemojo.com/search/?q=Blade

Wouldnt Say Blade squeak by making money

it had a 17 million opening weeknd..was was pretty good at the time for the movie of its type since people were making a billion a week at times. Namely given its was R rate, about a not well known charcter

Blade 3 had a 30 million opening weeknd

And trinity 3 sucked because it was a nightstalkers movie and not a blade. If the logic stands that its a black movie that brings it down, adding that many white people should of made MORE money

Not to mention Fast and Furious a VERY multie cultural movie. Adding diversity doesnt mean white people case to exist

A no one saying they have to abandon white titles.  Hey if a story that happen to have a NON white male in a title is good...then its a good book. Read it base on that. There still plenty of white male titles. MOST of them are white male titles. Including a lot of the failing ones. Not to mention all the resident evil and underworlds make money..that why they keep making them

different is when one of those comics, or movie shit the bed they dont go "Shit guess people dont want to see movies with white people"

Can understand white male comics reader may want to see a character that they can idenify with. But as a black guy if every character was a black guy coming from the black perspective, in all of media..I would eventully get bored

Not Asian..but I love manga, and Anime

Not in the mob, not from their culture but Love mob movies. Not from the hood (a wack us nerd) but love NWA.  Wasn't raise in the man man era, or the 50's but love Happy Days and Mad men. I dont have to be a latino lesbian to like Montaya in the Gotham Central books.  Or love Lucha underground,  and the EL Mariachi trilogy

These things bring different perspective that could bring an interersting story with them. It brings a differen ideas, outlooks and style

You dont have to raise in the east to enjoy a bruce Lee, Jet Li, or Jackie Chan movie
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: Ramz on April 05, 2017, 09:22:33 PM
I guess I didn't really read conventional comics for the stories, I read them more like a fantasy when I was younger. If it happened to be a good story, great, if not, I still loved the art and pretending I was Hulk or Superman, or some shit.

Very likely why I don't care for stories about spiderman in High school, or muslim girls identity crisis.

That being said, perhaps its not about diversity and more about personal preference - but again, I can't get around the idea that I was the only kid  who read comics focusing primarily on art and sick biceps.
Title: Re:"Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: 80sBaby on April 05, 2017, 09:35:42 PM
You specifically did infer that was what the book is about. And since I've actually read the book in question, I'm speaking from a place of knowledge. You haven't, which is literal ignorance of the subject matter.

Quote me then. Tell me when I explained the story of the book.[/]

I said you 'inferred' not that you 'explained.'
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: therock on April 05, 2017, 09:39:11 PM
I guess I didn't really read conventional comics for the stories, I read them more like a fantasy when I was younger. If it happened to be a good story, great, if not, I still loved the art and pretending I was Hulk or Superman, or some shit.

Very likely why I don't care for stories about spiderman in High school, or muslim girls identity crisis.

That being said, perhaps its not about diversity and more about personal preference - but again, I can't get around the idea that I was the only kid  who read comics focusing primarily on art and sick biceps.

Well guess it depends on your ability to put yourself in other people shoes

I am not from highschool but I been to it. Not a mutant but think we all can understand the idea of being an outcast no matter what your race is.. I never been raped. But can understna Jessica Jones Anger on Killgraven and when ever she felt powerless

And not because I am that emphantetic the normal reader. It depends on how you write it. I mean a lot of people dont know what it like be into slavery..or you to have to say and who you marry. But they cheered when Calesia in Games a Throne but the hell out of those horse rider dudes. Sure there a lot of people who enjoed DJango fucking shit up
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: NeoGreenLantern on April 05, 2017, 09:46:24 PM
I guess I didn't really read conventional comics for the stories, I read them more like a fantasy when I was younger. If it happened to be a good story, great, if not, I still loved the art and pretending I was Hulk or Superman, or some shit.

Very likely why I don't care for stories about spiderman in High school, or muslim girls identity crisis.

That being said, perhaps its not about diversity and more about personal preference - but again, I can't get around the idea that I was the only kid  who read comics focusing primarily on art and sick biceps.

I did too but I also like real world focus stuff. The only types of stories, and not just comics but entertainment in general, I rarely get into are Westerns and War movies but occasionally even those stories are fun.

Title: Re:"Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: ProjectCornDog on April 05, 2017, 10:41:48 PM
I never said the book is about that, you sound ignorant. I wouldn't care if she was Arab, actually I'd welcome it because I don't think Arabs are painted in good light but to make her a Muslim? And make it obvious? No, bad.

Right there. It sounds like you are offended by the idea of a Muslim superhero in general.

Also, if you are not offended by Islam then why do feel so passionate about their not being a Muslim superhero?

There's just no reason for it. Comic heroes TEND to steer away from religion (we have a few side characters like Nightcrawler) but it adds little to nothing to any story. In a time when Islam is being criticized, and rightfully so, there has been a counter push to shove Islamic acceptance down our throats. I don't know how people like 80sBaby doesn't understand the propaganda undertones. Why do you think the character has been used in pro-islam campaigns and has been used in political events?

Backward ideas should not be promoted.
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: MTL76 on April 05, 2017, 10:47:51 PM
Isn't promoting a character that represents a liberal, modern, American style of Islam a good thing?
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: ProjectCornDog on April 05, 2017, 10:57:14 PM
Isn't promoting a character that represents a liberal, modern, American style of Islam a good thing?

I understand your point but no I don't think so. I don't think it's a good thing for Muslims to feel empowered for their religious cause. The world would be a better place without that religion, bad ideas should be discussed not sympathized with. With that said, I do have empathy for all Arabs (muslims included obviously) in the Middle East who have to deal with the shit they have to. I am probably more anti-war then most people on this board and talk about unintended consequences constantly. I just don't see the point of glorifying a cult because people are responding incorrectly to them.
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: Ramz on April 05, 2017, 11:05:33 PM
Isn't promoting a character that represents a liberal, modern, American style of Islam a good thing?

Americanized Islam is the only real good vs fundamentalists. So I'd say thee yes
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: therock on April 05, 2017, 11:23:50 PM
Isn't promoting a character that represents a liberal, modern, American style of Islam a good thing?

I understand your point but no I don't think so. I don't think it's a good thing for Muslims to feel empowered for their religious cause. The world would be a better place without that religion, bad ideas should be discussed not sympathized with. With that said, I do have empathy for all Arabs (muslims included obviously) in the Middle East who have to deal with the shit they have to. I am probably more anti-war then most people on this board and talk about unintended consequences constantly. I just don't see the point of glorifying a cult because people are responding incorrectly to them.

So are you against a hero talking about their relegious values if there not muslim..like Catholic

Which kind of a big part of matt murdock
Or Constantine putting in relegious mytholgy
or character mention Judisim
Or Budisht
Title: Re:"Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: NeoGreenLantern on April 05, 2017, 11:34:11 PM
I never said the book is about that, you sound ignorant. I wouldn't care if she was Arab, actually I'd welcome it because I don't think Arabs are painted in good light but to make her a Muslim? And make it obvious? No, bad.

Right there. It sounds like you are offended by the idea of a Muslim superhero in general.

Also, if you are not offended by Islam then why do feel so passionate about their not being a Muslim superhero?

There's just no reason for it. Comic heroes TEND to steer away from religion (we have a few side characters like Nightcrawler) but it adds little to nothing to any story. In a time when Islam is being criticized, and rightfully so, there has been a counter push to shove Islamic acceptance down our throats. I don't know how people like 80sBaby doesn't understand the propaganda undertones. Why do you think the character has been used in pro-islam campaigns and has been used in political events?

Backward ideas should not be promoted.

Comics don't steer away from religion. A good majority of characters don't focus on religion but their has been plenty of character who have religious undertons. Nightcrawler like you mentioned, then you got Magneto, Daredevil, Shadowcat. Zaurel is a literal biblical angel. I would say Magneto being Jewish adds a lot to his story.
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: Hulkster on April 05, 2017, 11:44:51 PM
The studies addressed in the article say a lot abou American Muslims.  Much of The Right's angst against Muslims is based on an irrational us vs them mentality more so than an actual threat.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-bier/muslim-americans-violence_b_8812234.html
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: ProjectCornDog on April 06, 2017, 06:32:11 AM
Magneto was persecuted for being a jew but not once did he read the Torah or some shit.

Daredevil yes, a cafeteria Catholic. The X-men are so big they have a few side characters like Husk and Nightcrawler. And characters like Daredevil were not meant or created to paint the religion in a positive light.

To answer the question about religion, I'd rather not see it really at all but especially the lesser (scientology, Mormonism, Islam, etc).
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: NeoGreenLantern on April 06, 2017, 08:45:49 AM
What do you think goes on the Ms Marvel comic? She tells everyone we wouldn't have super villains if we had Sharia Law? Every other page she stops crime fighting to pray towards Mecca?
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: Red Exodus on April 06, 2017, 09:01:06 AM
To answer the question about religion, I'd rather not see it really at all but especially the lesser (scientology, Mormonism, Islam, etc).

I can't tell if you're extremely prejudiced towards other religions and people who practice them, or just extremely atheist.
Title: Re:"Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: Hulkster on April 06, 2017, 11:25:09 AM
So what? If the Market isn't there to sustain one or more black lead titles you can't magically expand the market out of your ass. Your best bet is to try and get white male readers to buy it.

If its a minority market, then there are less people within the core demographic you are targeting.

I was watching BBC world news or some similar show last night and they were reporting from South Africa and in the background was a billboard for what looked like a tv cop show and as it happened all the four characters on the billboard were black. My point is, South Africa probably has lots of shows with primarily only Black Actors or at least Black leads, despite the 9% white population, because THERE white folks are the MINORITY.

There is the idea of expanding your market so as to make more money in the long run.

I took a look at the list of top 50 South African original television shows on IMDB.  I focused on the top 20 and found that half of that top 20 have predominantly white casts.  So 9% of the population being predominate in half of the top 20 television shows seems to contradict your point.

Also, below is an interesting article on the tendency of black comicbook buyers to purchase books with white lead characters.  Blacks and non-whites have been so indoctrinated over the decades to see superheroes as white males that it is deeply ingrained.

https://www.bleedingcool.com/2015/09/29/asking-why-black-fans-avoid-black-creators-at-comic-cons-the-pros-speak/

Just look at the site.  Superman is the epitome and originator of the white male superhero template and his two most obsessed fans are African American and Indian.  Heck, Wonder Woman's biggest fan here is Black.  Hulk is my favorite.  Why must individuals only read books with characters of their own race?  Non-whites read white characters.  Why can't the reverse be done?  Below shows how black customers are appearing to frequent comicbook shops more now after the current push:

https://www.bleedingcool.com/2016/12/10/comic-store-stories-a-new-black-audience-for-new-black-superhero-comics/

And how shops won't even give brand new black leads a chance:

https://www.bleedingcool.com/2016/11/17/retailers-admit-to-not-ordering-any-motor-crush-1-because-it-has-a-black-female-lead/

Which is why they are using the names of established characters to promote instead of trying to be original.

And the first time blacks set something aside such as BET, Miss Black America or some type of comicbook company that produces books featuring only black characters, a vocal group of mostly white conservatives cry "reverse racism".   

Quote
The first Blade movie only JUST made money at the box office (in fact arguably it didn't make money until dvd sales). Same for Blade 2. Blade Trinity LOST money at the box office.

Rock addressed this above.  Blade made 70 million on a 45 million budget, not including dvd sales.  It's considered a success.  The general movie audience is more open minded than the comicbook audience. 

https://www.comicbookmovie.com/blade/blade-the-first-successful-marvel-movie-a85078

Quote
Exactly what more do you want white male readers to do...abandon reading titles with white male characters to prop up the sales of minority and female lead books? You could argue Marvel have tried to make that decision for them by replacing white male characters. Not working out great though is it.

How about reading books based on quality instead of race?  And your point on "not working out great" is questionable:

http://www.cbr.com/no-diversity-didnt-kill-marvels-comic-sales/

But if take your stance, if the companies see value in swapping white male characters with non-white male characters, then "SO WHAT?".  Crying daily on multiple comicbook sites won't change it.  Just read what is offered and accept the necessity of expanding your market.
Title: Re:"Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: Upper_Krust on April 06, 2017, 12:51:45 PM
http://www.boxofficemojo.com/search/?q=Blade

Wouldnt Say Blade squeak by making money

it had a 17 million opening weeknd..was was pretty good at the time for the movie of its type since people were making a billion a week at times. Namely given its was R rate, about a not well known charcter

Blade 3 had a 30 million opening weeknd

You understand of course that the studio only NETS around 50% of the gross (its a tad more complicated than that but the 50% is the easiest rule of thumb).

Blade production costs $45 million
Blade gross $131 million

So the studio probably netted around $65 million BUT that doesn't take into account the Marketing budget for these movies, which is, in many cases in and around as big as the Production costs.

Quote
And trinity 3 sucked because it was a nightstalkers movie and not a blade. If the logic stands that its a black movie that brings it down, adding that many white people should of made MORE money

It sucked because it was idiotic crap. They had Jess Biel dominating trained men in tac armour and helmets WITH HER FISTS while listening to her MP3 on full blast - because what you want to do is take away your hearing when fighting multiple assailants.

It made sense when Blade was kicking the ass of trained humans in tac armour because he's super-strong, but not Jess Biel.

...and no it doesn't make sense on shows like Arrow either.

Quote
Not to mention Fast and Furious a VERY multie cultural movie. Adding diversity doesnt mean white people case to exist.

Its a good franchise (albeit #4 was shite and they had to bring in the Rock to reinvigorate the franchise) with TWO BIG movie stars (Diesel & the Rock); now THREE with Statham.

Note that with the untimely death of Paul Walker, Fast #8 still saw the need to have a white male (Statham) in one of the more prominent roles.

Quote
A no one saying they have to abandon white titles.
 

Marvel don't need to say it...they just do it...also technically its a Feminist Agenda not a Diversity agenda that is the problem.

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Hey if a story that happen to have a NON white male in a title is good...then its a good book. Read it base on that. There still plenty of white male titles. MOST of them are white male titles. Including a lot of the failing ones.


I like books about Elite Top Tier+ characters, skin colour or gender doesn't concern me. But at the same time I'm not going to buy some pandering SJW-fest that is talking down to me.

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Not to mention all the resident evil and underworlds make money..that why they keep making them.

In fairness though the original movies in both franchises were pretty good movies.

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different is when one of those comics, or movie shit the bed they dont go "Shit guess people dont want to see movies with white people"

The big difference is that comics are more of a male hobby, in the same way romance novels are more of a female one.

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Can understand white male comics reader may want to see a character that they can idenify with. But as a black guy if every character was a black guy coming from the black perspective, in all of media..I would eventully get bored.

I don't think you understand my position at all.

Years ago I was reading multiple Marvel titles and skin colour/gender wasn't a problem because those titles didn't shove their politics (and identity politics) down my throat. My issue here is NOT that I don't want to see more diversity in comics and expand the comics market - I do. My problem is how they are doing it (replacing white male characters with lazy gender or diversity swopped knock-offs) and the politics behind it constantly being rammed down my throat in both the comics and from the creators in interviews and on social media.

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Not Asian..but I love manga, and Anime

I like Anime too, could never get into manga though - I prefer colour in my comics (no pun intended). ;)

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Not in the mob, not from their culture but Love mob movies. Not from the hood (a wack us nerd) but love NWA.  Wasn't raise in the man man era, or the 50's but love Happy Days and Mad men. I dont have to be a latino lesbian to like Montaya in the Gotham Central books.  Or love Lucha underground,  and the EL Mariachi trilogy

These things bring different perspective that could bring an interersting story with them. It brings a differen ideas, outlooks and style

You dont have to raise in the east to enjoy a bruce Lee, Jet Li, or Jackie Chan movie

I've seen every Bruce Lee, Jet Li and Jackie Chan movie. Never once thought classic Hong Kong movies needed more Diversity to be enjoyable.

Last night watched a Korean movie "The Man From Nowhere" on Netflix; great movie, like a Korean John Wick homage (I actually thought the movie much better than John Wick in all honesty). Again, it didn't need added 'Diversity' to make it interesting and entertaining.
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: Upper_Krust on April 06, 2017, 01:01:28 PM
The studies addressed in the article say a lot abou American Muslims.  Much of The Right's angst against Muslims is based on an irrational us vs them mentality more so than an actual threat.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-bier/muslim-americans-violence_b_8812234.html

All the muslims I know personally are great people so I agree there is an element of irrationality to the whole us vs. them thing. BUT at the same time, that ideology clearly has MASSIVE problems and the longer the mainstream media and politicians pander to it the worse its going to be in the long term. I mean the stuff going on in Europe right now that the mainstream media is not reporting is unbelievable.
Title: Re:"Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: therock on April 06, 2017, 02:06:43 PM
http://www.boxofficemojo.com/search/?q=Blade

Wouldnt Say Blade squeak by making money

it had a 17 million opening weeknd..was was pretty good at the time for the movie of its type since people were making a billion a week at times. Namely given its was R rate, about a not well known charcter

Blade 3 had a 30 million opening weeknd

You understand of course that the studio only NETS around 50% of the gross (its a tad more complicated than that but the 50% is the easiest rule of thumb).

Blade production costs $45 million
Blade gross $131 million

So the studio probably netted around $65 million BUT that doesn't take into account the Marketing budget for these movies, which is, in many cases in and around as big as the Production costs.

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And trinity 3 sucked because it was a nightstalkers movie and not a blade. If the logic stands that its a black movie that brings it down, adding that many white people should of made MORE money

It sucked because it was idiotic crap. They had Jess Biel dominating trained men in tac armour and helmets WITH HER FISTS while listening to her MP3 on full blast - because what you want to do is take away your hearing when fighting multiple assailants.

It made sense when Blade was kicking the ass of trained humans in tac armour because he's super-strong, but not Jess Biel.

...and no it doesn't make sense on shows like Arrow either.

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Not to mention Fast and Furious a VERY multie cultural movie. Adding diversity doesnt mean white people case to exist.

Its a good franchise (albeit #4 was shite and they had to bring in the Rock to reinvigorate the franchise) with TWO BIG movie stars (Diesel & the Rock); now THREE with Statham.

Note that with the untimely death of Paul Walker, Fast #8 still saw the need to have a white male (Statham) in one of the more prominent roles.

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A no one saying they have to abandon white titles.
 

Marvel don't need to say it...they just do it...also technically its a Feminist Agenda not a Diversity agenda that is the problem.

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Hey if a story that happen to have a NON white male in a title is good...then its a good book. Read it base on that. There still plenty of white male titles. MOST of them are white male titles. Including a lot of the failing ones.


I like books about Elite Top Tier+ characters, skin colour or gender doesn't concern me. But at the same time I'm not going to buy some pandering SJW-fest that is talking down to me.

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Not to mention all the resident evil and underworlds make money..that why they keep making them.

In fairness though the original movies in both franchises were pretty good movies.

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different is when one of those comics, or movie shit the bed they dont go "Shit guess people dont want to see movies with white people"

The big difference is that comics are more of a male hobby, in the same way romance novels are more of a female one.

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Can understand white male comics reader may want to see a character that they can idenify with. But as a black guy if every character was a black guy coming from the black perspective, in all of media..I would eventully get bored.

I don't think you understand my position at all.

Years ago I was reading multiple Marvel titles and skin colour/gender wasn't a problem because those titles didn't shove their politics (and identity politics) down my throat. My issue here is NOT that I don't want to see more diversity in comics and expand the comics market - I do. My problem is how they are doing it (replacing white male characters with lazy gender or diversity swopped knock-offs) and the politics behind it constantly being rammed down my throat in both the comics and from the creators in interviews and on social media.

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Not Asian..but I love manga, and Anime

I like Anime too, could never get into manga though - I prefer colour in my comics (no pun intended). ;)

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Not in the mob, not from their culture but Love mob movies. Not from the hood (a wack us nerd) but love NWA.  Wasn't raise in the man man era, or the 50's but love Happy Days and Mad men. I dont have to be a latino lesbian to like Montaya in the Gotham Central books.  Or love Lucha underground,  and the EL Mariachi trilogy

These things bring different perspective that could bring an interersting story with them. It brings a differen ideas, outlooks and style

You dont have to raise in the east to enjoy a bruce Lee, Jet Li, or Jackie Chan movie

I've seen every Bruce Lee, Jet Li and Jackie Chan movie. Never once thought classic Hong Kong movies needed more Diversity to be enjoyable.

Last night watched a Korean movie "The Man From Nowhere" on Netflix; great movie, like a Korean John Wick homage (I actually thought the movie much better than John Wick in all honesty). Again, it didn't need added 'Diversity' to make it interesting and entertaining.


Actully the marketing budget maybe at half at most..unless its a giant TIM BURTON batman type pushed. And Blade simply wasnt that huge of a push. It was a dark horse so to speak before superheros dominated everything.  It actully probally wouldnt be an XMEN fanracise if Blade didnt do that well


Yes suck because of idiotic crap. NOT because it had a black guy in it. As For Jessica biel. Yes some people complain about a woman kicking ass. Lot of people complain about the ATOMIC BLOND trailer. That it was unrealistc. But these the same people who love the fast and the furious movies where The Rock FLEXES through a broken arm, and skate boards on a missle. Or jon Wicked. A dude who got hit by a car I think twice, and got up because it aint shit. Or what ever superheroic shit tom cruise does in his impossible movie. 

Vin disel wasnt a  big star when the fast and furious movie came out. Most of them werent. Rock is interccial..and he was the hugest stars out there. As for having a white guy, talking about diverity..not black ONLY. ethnic people ok if a white guy in it

And dont see how going from 90 percent of all titles being white makes to 75 percent if ABANDONING white people. If people think that they may be being over sensative and paranoid

Yes but a Jet Li and Asian movie..shows people CAN enjoy a movie without a person of thier race. That a diversity of differnt colors.  AMC has a great show called Enter the badlands. That people love. That has a mixture of races but star an Asian lead. Diveristy is not just black vs white. If you can enjoy an ASIAN actiong flick. or Anime..what wrong with a non white superhero in marvel or DC.  Is it the idea of them mixing is wrong


and people keep saying it shoving things down your throat. How is  Ms marvel shovings thing down your throat. The other marvel still around. How is moongirl and Devil Dinsouar shoving things down your throat. Dont like it, dont read it. She very easy to avoid. It not like she spents pages explaining the value of Jihad.

Miles was in a altenrate universe. And when he came here Peter Parker was still around. Read that. Sure some have. Ice man thing seem a little force.  American still sucks. But the other example people are using. Dont see it being force.  The Thor with a penis still around

And yes comics a male hobby. But dont get not be able to read non white guys. My favorite hero is batman. Let I am a black guy with two parents. My Question dont people get bored of the same shit form the same perspective. Love Cage..dont want every hero to be luke Cage. And it makes marketing sense to try to expand the comics BEYOND that.  Adding few extra books that not white straight make is not abadoning whites

They see superoes in the mainstream and trying to translate that into comics.  It may not work but I respect the effort. And sometimes its a testing ground for what will put in movies.  The black version of firestorm was later put into the TV show. They trying out black lighting show. Static started in the comic but later had a nice series in the cartoon

Also when a white male comic or movie fails..they dont say it because its a white male comic.  When a non white male property fails they act like it the ONLY reason why they fail.  When those happen to be  a success (like your underworld, resident Evil, Lucy, Mighty Thor, Blade, Etc) they used any other reason as why it was success beside the diverity..to not give it credit.

Title: Re:"Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: Upper_Krust on April 06, 2017, 02:30:27 PM
There is the idea of expanding your market so as to make more money in the long run.

Of course and I fully support that. I support more female characters and more characters of different races.

The question is do we allow the market to expand organically or do we FORCE diversity and politics onto people.

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I took a look at the list of top 50 South African original television shows on IMDB.  I focused on the top 20 and found that half of that top 20 have predominantly white casts.  So 9% of the population being predominate in half of the top 20 television shows seems to contradict your point.

It totally does, that's very interesting indeed. We could make a number of presumptions off the back of that but it will be interesting to see what happens in a few years time given the white population of that country is shrinking.

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Also, below is an interesting article on the tendency of black comicbook buyers to purchase books with white lead characters.  Blacks and non-whites have been so indoctrinated over the decades to see superheroes as white males that it is deeply ingrained.

https://www.bleedingcool.com/2015/09/29/asking-why-black-fans-avoid-black-creators-at-comic-cons-the-pros-speak/

That article was interesting, but every other creator seemed to give a different reason. Certainly I think there is an element of familiarity in why people will buy books with white lead characters. But I still think the market needs to evolve organically, rather than be forced.

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Just look at the site.  Superman is the epitome and originator of the white male superhero template and his two most obsessed fans are African American and Indian.  Heck, Wonder Woman's biggest fan here is Black.  Hulk is my favorite.  Why must individuals only read books with characters of their own race?  Non-whites read white characters.  Why can't the reverse be done?


No one is saying they can't.

Personally I'd love to be reading a Blue Marvel title right now - sadly I refuse to support Marvel because of their political agenda right now but hopefully a year or two from now that will all subside.

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Below shows how black customers are appearing to frequent comicbook shops more now after the current push:

https://www.bleedingcool.com/2016/12/10/comic-store-stories-a-new-black-audience-for-new-black-superhero-comics/

Anecdotal reporting of course, but I just noticed a comment under that article which parallels my views on the matter (albeit the posters language is a tad more abrupt than I would use):

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"If blacks support a title with their $ enough to keep the title going, then they deserve to have that title. Same with gays: if they support it, fine. Where I draw the line is expecting me to support it, and then calling me out when I don't. Supporting a title with your $ is basic capitalism, and I have no issue with it at all."

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And how shops won't even give brand new black leads a chance:

https://www.bleedingcool.com/2016/11/17/retailers-admit-to-not-ordering-any-motor-crush-1-because-it-has-a-black-female-lead/


That's very disappointing, especially given the issues were returnable. That said, I presume they didn't stop people from actually ordering the comic itself.

Looking at Motor Crush and I really like the art and use of lettering (I know that's a weird aspect to like). Storywise its not really my thing though.

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Which is why they are using the names of established characters to promote instead of trying to be original.

To me though that's less about reaching out though and more about forwarding a feminist agenda.

I want to read good books, not have Marvels left wing politics shoved down my throat.

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And the first time blacks set something aside such as BET, Miss Black America or some type of comicbook company that produces books featuring only black characters, a vocal group of mostly white conservatives cry "reverse racism".

There are idiots on both sides of the argument and there always will be.

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The first Blade movie only JUST made money at the box office (in fact arguably it didn't make money until dvd sales). Same for Blade 2. Blade Trinity LOST money at the box office.

Rock addressed this above.  Blade made 70 million on a 45 million budget, not including dvd sales.  It's considered a success.  The general movie audience is more open minded than the comicbook audience.

I addressed Rock's points in my previous post.

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Exactly what more do you want white male readers to do...abandon reading titles with white male characters to prop up the sales of minority and female lead books? You could argue Marvel have tried to make that decision for them by replacing white male characters. Not working out great though is it.

How about reading books based on quality instead of race? 

So (to play devil's advocate here) the white majority (of the US) need to read books based on quality and not race, but racial minorities must be pandered to because to them its all about race and not about quality. Is that the double standard we are going with now?

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And your point on "not working out great" is questionable:

http://www.cbr.com/no-diversity-didnt-kill-marvels-comic-sales/

I've seen that article and others like it and I could refute it but at the end of the day you can make statistics say whatever you want.

Here's the bottom line - MARVEL's OWN hierarchy have now acknowledged what they are hearing is that fans want less diversity - of course the news articles spun that nicely so that it was Marvel readers want 'NO MORE' diversity; but we know they would always try to paint the readers as racist to kick that white-guilt into overdrive.

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But if take your stance, if the companies see value in swapping white male characters with non-white male characters, then "SO WHAT?".  Crying daily on multiple comicbook sites won't change it.  Just read what is offered and accept the necessity of expanding your market.

I vote with my $$. If books are going to preach SJW-politics or creators talk down to me, they won't get my money.

Its not simply about the swopping of characters, its about HOW they are swopping them (mostly with self-entitled Mary Sues), WHY they are swopping them (identity politics) and the EXTENT they are swopping them (virtually line wide).

- Falcon as Captain America I'm fine with because he EARNED IT (although I never bought a Cap book so that's not my thing) - but I wouldn't support that comic's clear political agenda.
- The concept of a female 'Thor' I am fine with (assuming she isn't called Thor), but again they forced in the political agenda; shoehorned in a self-entitled Mary Sue who was NEVER worthy and emasculated Thor in the process.
- She-Hulk I used to love, but now she's the 'Hulk' apparently and its a total SJW snoozefest.
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: ProjectCornDog on April 06, 2017, 03:07:56 PM
What do you think goes on the Ms Marvel comic? She tells everyone we wouldn't have super villains if we had Sharia Law? Every other page she stops crime fighting to pray towards Mecca?

Obviously not.

To answer the question about religion, I'd rather not see it really at all but especially the lesser (scientology, Mormonism, Islam, etc).

I can't tell if you're extremely prejudiced towards other religions and people who practice them, or just extremely atheist.

I'm against religions whose original leaders are violent. Most major religions had reformations that radically changed their 'church' so their followers wouldn't interpret their books literally (or branched off), but I don't think that would help Islam much. How could it? Muhammad was an evil man and they worship him so much that they will kill you if you draw him. Wouldn't admitting Muhammad wasn't a good person defeat the purpose of following his religion?

The Old Testament had a really douchey God and I question people who can't acknowledge that. At least Jesus was a really peaceful hippie. Yeah he'd get a misdemeanor for that time he flipped over tables but aside from that he certainly wasn't starting any wars. However, I think many problems in this country are due to people being stubborn, largely due to religions like Catholicism. Like who could argue that the country would be better off if the Bible Belt didn't live up to it's name? Not to mention all the preconceived notions people have because of their interpretation of some passages in a several thousand year old book that was originally orally told and then written down and then translated over and over again.

Religions like Mormonism and Scientology worry me largely due to their inception. Joseph Smith was a known con man and Ron Hubbard was an actual science fiction writer and managed to get people to join his cult in a modern era. I think blind faith is a dangerous path and sets a dangerous precedent to encourage or ignore.

And for the record, I'm not an atheist.
Title: Re:"Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: Upper_Krust on April 06, 2017, 03:11:44 PM
Actully the marketing budget maybe at half at most..unless its a giant TIM BURTON batman type pushed. And Blade simply wasnt that huge of a push. It was a dark horse so to speak before superheros dominated everything.  It actully probally wouldnt be an XMEN fanracise if Blade didnt do that well.

I'd agree with you the marketing budget on Blade was probably only half...in which case it didn't turn a profit at the box office - as I initially suggested. Of course it was still profitable once we factor in DVDs and merchandising.

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Yes suck because of idiotic crap. NOT because it had a black guy in it.

Totally agree - again as I pointed out.

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As For Jessica biel. Yes some people complain about a woman kicking ass. Lot of people complain about the ATOMIC BLOND trailer. That it was unrealistc. But these the same people who love the fast and the furious movies where The Rock FLEXES through a broken arm, and skate boards on a missle. Or jon Wicked. A dude who got hit by a car I think twice, and got up because it aint shit. Or what ever superheroic shit tom cruise does in his impossible movie.


I agree and I think you can take things too far even with experienced male chartacters, but the Biel stuff in Trinity was fucking preposterous - although it wasn't the only bad thing in that movie.

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Vin disel wasnt a  big star when the fast and furious movie came out. Most of them werent.


He wasn't a big star then but he IS now and the movies have grown more and more successful (especially since the fifth).

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Rock is interccial..and he was the hugest stars out there. As for having a white guy, talking about diverity..not black ONLY. ethnic people ok if a white guy in it

I would say the Rock is arguably the biggest star in Hollywood right now...goes and checks and YES the Rock is the highest paid actor in Hollywood as of 2016.

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And dont see how going from 90 percent of all titles being white makes to 75 percent if ABANDONING white people. If people think that they may be being over sensative and paranoid

I don't think the titles have been 90% white male for years. Again my problem is never the percentage of white male leads, its about forcing identity politics into comics and changing legacy characters for political reasons.

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Yes but a Jet Li and Asian movie..shows people CAN enjoy a movie without a person of thier race. That a diversity of differnt colors.  AMC has a great show called Enter the badlands. That people love. That has a mixture of races but star an Asian lead. Diveristy is not just black vs white. If you can enjoy an ASIAN actiong flick. or Anime..what wrong with a non white superhero in marvel or DC.  Is it the idea of them mixing is wrong

I don't have a problem with characters of any race. I recently asked people on the DC Drones forum whether the New (Chinese) Superman title was good because I was thinking about buying it and the general response was it was crap and they were going to cancel it soon.

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and people keep saying it shoving things down your throat. How is  Ms marvel shovings thing down your throat. The other marvel still around.

I think Kamela Khan is a positive role model, but from my limited exposure to her comics, there is a lot of SJW-ing going on; where (in one example) American soldiers in the middle east are the villains.  ::)

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How is moongirl and Devil Dinsouar shoving things down your throat.

Again I am all for positive role models and supporting children's comics, but do they need to make every young female character the smartest person in the world now, LOL? Reed and Tony sort of earned their 'very smart' taglines over the years because of what they did, not simply because someone just said it.

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Dont like it, dont read it. She very easy to avoid. It not like she spents pages explaining the value of Jihad.

I don't buy it - though I do keep abreast of a number of Marvel titles via reviews.

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Miles was in a altenrate universe. And when he came here Peter Parker was still around. Read that. Sure some have. Ice man thing seem a little force.  American still sucks. But the other example people are using. Dont see it being force.
 

Miles "I don't want to be known as the Black Spiderman" Morales

1. Didn't have to call himself Spiderman
2. He's 14; he isn't a man by any barometer

That said, I think Miles would make a good Spiderman had he 'paid his dues' as Spiderboy or somesuch.

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The Thor with a penis still around

Incorrect. You mean the emasculated, disabled, emo-cuck Odinson is around...although he doesn't have his own comic.

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And yes comics a male hobby. But dont get not be able to read non white guys. My favorite hero is batman. Let I am a black guy with two parents. My Question dont people get bored of the same shit form the same perspective. Love Cage..dont want every hero to be luke Cage. And it makes marketing sense to try to expand the comics BEYOND that.  Adding few extra books that not white straight make is not abadoning whites

I'd say my favourite Marvel character of the moment was Blue Marvel.

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They see superoes in the mainstream and trying to translate that into comics.  It may not work but I respect the effort. And sometimes its a testing ground for what will put in movies.  The black version of firestorm was later put into the TV show. They trying out black lighting show. Static started in the comic but later had a nice series in the cartoon

Good luck with all that, I really like Wally West's character on the Flash. Obviously the Firestorm change was due to the Legends tv show. Will be interesting to see how Black Lightning does. I really enjoyed the Luke Cage show on Netflix (although the latter half of the series faltered when they just brought in bullets that could hurt a bulletproof man...bit lazy of them).

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Also when a white male comic or movie fails..they dont say it because its a white male comic.

Generally they don't because the US has a white majority. Of course THEY DID criticise Gods of Egypt for 'whitewashing'.

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When a non white male property fails they act like it the ONLY reason why they fail. 

...unless its Gods of Egypt.

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When those happen to be  a success (like your underworld, resident Evil, Lucy, Mighty Thor, Blade, Etc) they used any other reason as why it was success beside the diverity..to not give it credit.

Who ever said Blade wasn't good because it has a black lead, not me? Blade was a great film, I'm a big Wesley Snipes fan. I simply said it wasn't a big financial success at the box office (after you claimed it was).
Title: Re:"Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: Thanos6 on April 06, 2017, 03:14:58 PM
Miles "I don't want to be known as the Black Spiderman" Morales

1. Didn't have to call himself Spiderman
2. He's 14; he isn't a man by any barometer

That said, I think Miles would make a good Spiderman had he 'paid his dues' as Spiderboy or somesuch.

Peter Parker was only 15 when he started called himself Spider-Man.
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: Thanos6 on April 06, 2017, 03:16:15 PM
At least Jesus was a really peaceful hippie. Yeah he'd get a misdemeanor for that time he flipped over tables but aside from that he certainly wasn't starting any wars.

Matthew 10:34.  "Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword."
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: ProjectCornDog on April 06, 2017, 03:24:46 PM
At least Jesus was a really peaceful hippie. Yeah he'd get a misdemeanor for that time he flipped over tables but aside from that he certainly wasn't starting any wars.

Matthew 10:34.  "Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword."

Thank you for pointing out another flaw with their book, vastly inconsistent. Granted, Jesus spoke in parables a lot and never did things like slicing dude's necks. But his sloppy language (or the sloppiness of those who scribed his words) led to people committing violence in his name, so how great did that work out for him?
Title: Re:"Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: therock on April 06, 2017, 04:10:42 PM
Actully the marketing budget maybe at half at most..unless its a giant TIM BURTON batman type pushed. And Blade simply wasnt that huge of a push. It was a dark horse so to speak before superheros dominated everything.  It actully probally wouldnt be an XMEN fanracise if Blade didnt do that well.

I'd agree with you the marketing budget on Blade was probably only half...in which case it didn't turn a profit at the box office - as I initially suggested. Of course it was still profitable once we factor in DVDs and merchandising.

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Yes suck because of idiotic crap. NOT because it had a black guy in it.

Totally agree - again as I pointed out.

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As For Jessica biel. Yes some people complain about a woman kicking ass. Lot of people complain about the ATOMIC BLOND trailer. That it was unrealistc. But these the same people who love the fast and the furious movies where The Rock FLEXES through a broken arm, and skate boards on a missle. Or jon Wicked. A dude who got hit by a car I think twice, and got up because it aint shit. Or what ever superheroic shit tom cruise does in his impossible movie.


I agree and I think you can take things too far even with experienced male chartacters, but the Biel stuff in Trinity was fucking preposterous - although it wasn't the only bad thing in that movie.

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Vin disel wasnt a  big star when the fast and furious movie came out. Most of them werent.


He wasn't a big star then but he IS now and the movies have grown more and more successful (especially since the fifth).

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Rock is interccial..and he was the hugest stars out there. As for having a white guy, talking about diverity..not black ONLY. ethnic people ok if a white guy in it

I would say the Rock is arguably the biggest star in Hollywood right now...goes and checks and YES the Rock is the highest paid actor in Hollywood as of 2016.

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And dont see how going from 90 percent of all titles being white makes to 75 percent if ABANDONING white people. If people think that they may be being over sensative and paranoid

I don't think the titles have been 90% white male for years. Again my problem is never the percentage of white male leads, its about forcing identity politics into comics and changing legacy characters for political reasons.

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Yes but a Jet Li and Asian movie..shows people CAN enjoy a movie without a person of thier race. That a diversity of differnt colors.  AMC has a great show called Enter the badlands. That people love. That has a mixture of races but star an Asian lead. Diveristy is not just black vs white. If you can enjoy an ASIAN actiong flick. or Anime..what wrong with a non white superhero in marvel or DC.  Is it the idea of them mixing is wrong

I don't have a problem with characters of any race. I recently asked people on the DC Drones forum whether the New (Chinese) Superman title was good because I was thinking about buying it and the general response was it was crap and they were going to cancel it soon.

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and people keep saying it shoving things down your throat. How is  Ms marvel shovings thing down your throat. The other marvel still around.

I think Kamela Khan is a positive role model, but from my limited exposure to her comics, there is a lot of SJW-ing going on; where (in one example) American soldiers in the middle east are the villains.  ::)

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How is moongirl and Devil Dinsouar shoving things down your throat.

Again I am all for positive role models and supporting children's comics, but do they need to make every young female character the smartest person in the world now, LOL? Reed and Tony sort of earned their 'very smart' taglines over the years because of what they did, not simply because someone just said it.

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Dont like it, dont read it. She very easy to avoid. It not like she spents pages explaining the value of Jihad.

I don't buy it - though I do keep abreast of a number of Marvel titles via reviews.

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Miles was in a altenrate universe. And when he came here Peter Parker was still around. Read that. Sure some have. Ice man thing seem a little force.  American still sucks. But the other example people are using. Dont see it being force.
 

Miles "I don't want to be known as the Black Spiderman" Morales

1. Didn't have to call himself Spiderman
2. He's 14; he isn't a man by any barometer

That said, I think Miles would make a good Spiderman had he 'paid his dues' as Spiderboy or somesuch.

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The Thor with a penis still around

Incorrect. You mean the emasculated, disabled, emo-cuck Odinson is around...although he doesn't have his own comic.

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And yes comics a male hobby. But dont get not be able to read non white guys. My favorite hero is batman. Let I am a black guy with two parents. My Question dont people get bored of the same shit form the same perspective. Love Cage..dont want every hero to be luke Cage. And it makes marketing sense to try to expand the comics BEYOND that.  Adding few extra books that not white straight make is not abadoning whites

I'd say my favourite Marvel character of the moment was Blue Marvel.

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They see superoes in the mainstream and trying to translate that into comics.  It may not work but I respect the effort. And sometimes its a testing ground for what will put in movies.  The black version of firestorm was later put into the TV show. They trying out black lighting show. Static started in the comic but later had a nice series in the cartoon

Good luck with all that, I really like Wally West's character on the Flash. Obviously the Firestorm change was due to the Legends tv show. Will be interesting to see how Black Lightning does. I really enjoyed the Luke Cage show on Netflix (although the latter half of the series faltered when they just brought in bullets that could hurt a bulletproof man...bit lazy of them).

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Also when a white male comic or movie fails..they dont say it because its a white male comic.

Generally they don't because the US has a white majority. Of course THEY DID criticise Gods of Egypt for 'whitewashing'.

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When a non white male property fails they act like it the ONLY reason why they fail. 

...unless its Gods of Egypt.

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When those happen to be  a success (like your underworld, resident Evil, Lucy, Mighty Thor, Blade, Etc) they used any other reason as why it was success beside the diverity..to not give it credit.

Who ever said Blade wasn't good because it has a black lead, not me? Blade was a great film, I'm a big Wesley Snipes fan. I simply said it wasn't a big financial success at the box office (after you claimed it was).


Even if your factor the budget. The budge was 45. Adding in half the budget it was 68 all together. That 131 million world wide. Not even factoring DVD. it was success. it was a succest where they made 2 movies. Th second movie made even more

So you can take it to far in realism. Not sure a woman kicking a man ass is taking it far and half the the shit vin disel pulls on a regular basis in his movies not

Yes vin disel wasnt a big star then. But someone decided to put him a movie when it wasnt and people still saw it. Enough for him to BECOME a  big star.  But you got to first try it. They tried making the movies have a diverse cast. If they had to worry about "I dont know is putting a non white guy kikcing someone butt is us making white guys into cuck"  you will never get a vin disel..or a rock. Someone got to try.. A thus they spread out thier market base. WWE tried for a lot of mexican fighter thus got a lot of latino people watching wrestle. Eddie was HUGE before he died. If one to assume ONLY white guy sale movie then you would never get the francise viagra that is Dwayne Johnson. Or your Denzels. Or you Jet Li, Donnie Wong and such

You wouldnt get a scarlet Johansan Lucy. Or Hunger Games. Movie have learn this. Comics slowly getting their feet wet with it

You said your familarly with Kamelia is limited. So where you getting this idea she shoving SJW down your throat.  Or pushing some wild muslim agenda..if you havent read it. Your assuming that she doing that. From what other people saying she is not

Moongirl is one of the many character who claim to be the smartesy or the best. They pop up every now and then it part of comics. Casandra was the best fighter for a while..she popped up. But to me that wanting to make a character for girls that are Awesome. Not WHITE MALES ARE DUMB.  Its targeting kids.  They want a hero that awesome.  And it seem to be working for trade sales.  It not there to piss off white people. If they do that them being to easly triggered


you keep saying in SJW shoved down your throat but some of the examples you either havent read, or when press you kind of admit not SJW. As for the spiderman thing, Thanson kind of showed spiderman was 15 when he stared and called himself spiderman

You said you enjoyed luke Cage. But Luke Cage when they first created was them openly trying to get a diverse character. It was more in your face then anything now. It a blackexplation character. And the show has shade of that. So sometimes you got to force it. Because they wanted defenders to be a mixture of people. You got a chick who main villain is a RAPE ALLLEGORY...in an interacial relationship.  Cage deals with black issues but still well enough to almost crash netflix. Sure it doesnt pop out as SJW to you because you grew up when he was already there. But someone at some point had to go "I want a strong black character..so I putting it in this comic"

with Xmen..someone at some point had to go "You know want to make an alegory for the civil rights. Prof X is mlk, and magento going malcom X. And you know what lets put in a powerfull woman from Africa" Storm was made a leader. If the internet was around sure you have people "Oh make an AFRICAN WOMAN a leader of the Xmen...it called the XMEN..or make Jean Grey the most powefull Xmen...FUCKING CUck"

clamermont was all about uber powerfull chicks

I never said YOU said blade failed because it a black lead. But you DID say Trinity failed becuase of BIEL girl power. and you did argue black leads generaly cant support a movie..and I argue depends on the lead

Differnce is when a non white male lead movie fails..they only factor in its not being a non white male lead for it success

And when it SUCCEED..they factor in everything else, so it wont be included as a exanple of one succeeding with a non white male lead
Title: Re:"Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: Upper_Krust on April 06, 2017, 05:37:30 PM
Peter Parker was only 15 when he started called himself Spider-Man.

True and I would have slagged him off about it just the same. Of course he didn't copy the name of another hero and then whinge when they referred to him as something different.
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’
Post by: Hulkster on April 06, 2017, 05:46:39 PM
Blade also had a live action television series based on the films.  The series was crap and lasted a very short time, but the fact that they would actually make Blade television series based on the movie is a testament of the movie's popularity.  And I see where it made 131 million on a 40 million budget.

Hancock made 624 million on a 150 million dollar budget.  It's a theatre original character, but fall within the super hero movie category.
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: scourge on April 06, 2017, 07:01:41 PM
I think this analysis will provide a better take on the issue, but I didn't read more than a quarter of it:

https://icv2.com/articles/columns/view/37177/marvels-problem-isnt-diversity-its-much-bigger-and-its-not-just-marvels-problem#.WOUKxaW_sa8.facebook

Might get back to it but for now I turn it over to you for consideration
Title: Re:"Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: Upper_Krust on April 06, 2017, 07:20:59 PM
Even if your factor the budget. The budge was 45. Adding in half the budget it was 68 all together. That 131 million world wide. Not even factoring DVD. it was success. it was a succest where they made 2 movies. Th second movie made even more

You could always read my posts before replying you know.

I already explained that the studio only gets about 50% of the gross amount. So if the Gross amount was $131 million, they only netted about $65.5 million.

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So you can take it to far in realism. Not sure a woman kicking a man ass is taking it far and half the the shit vin disel pulls on a regular basis in his movies not

A woman kicking the ass of multiple men in tactical armour and helmets while listening to her MP3 is taking it TOO FAR in my opinion.

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Yes vin disel wasnt a big star then. But someone decided to put him a movie when it wasnt and people still saw it. Enough for him to BECOME a  big star.  But you got to first try it. They tried making the movies have a diverse cast. If they had to worry about "I dont know is putting a non white guy kikcing someone butt is us making white guys into cuck"  you will never get a vin disel..or a rock. Someone got to try.. A thus they spread out thier market base.


If they explain and show why a woman can beat up multiple men in tac. armour then I might be okay with it. I loved Cynthia Rothrock movies back in the day. But not only was she a brilliant martial artist they always explain her skill in some way (like she's a martial arts teacher or champion or somesuch). In Daredevil we know Elektra has been training since she was little so we can understand her beating up a man or two - and even then they generally have her use the Sai rather than her fists.

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WWE tried for a lot of mexican fighter thus got a lot of latino people watching wrestle. Eddie was HUGE before he died. If one to assume ONLY white guy sale movie then you would never get the francise viagra that is Dwayne Johnson. Or your Denzels. Or you Jet Li, Donnie Wong and such.

Luckily no one is saying lets have white guy only movies (or comics) so I don't know what you are going on about.

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You wouldnt get a scarlet Johansan Lucy. Or Hunger Games. Movie have learn this. Comics slowly getting their feet wet with it

Lucy was of course a Mary Sue on a Rey/every current Marvel female level.

The Hunger Games were good though. But they didn't start Katniss as a badass, she's good with a bow (because she needed to be to feed her family - ie. its explained) and that's it. The rest she earns along the way.

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You said your familarly with Kamelia is limited. So where you getting this idea she shoving SJW down your throat.  Or pushing some wild muslim agenda..if you havent read it. Your assuming that she doing that. From what other people saying she is not

I never said Ms. Marvel was doing that consistently - I simply pointed out that I have seen a comic (with her) where they made the (white) American Soldiers the villains. Added to which her writer is consistently posting SJW stuff on twitter.

Never said anything about any Muslim Agenda - more made up statements from you. You should start responding to my actual comments.

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Moongirl is one of the many character who claim to be the smartesy or the best. They pop up every now and then it part of comics. Casandra was the best fighter for a while..she popped up. But to me that wanting to make a character for girls that are Awesome. Not WHITE MALES ARE DUMB.  Its targeting kids.  They want a hero that awesome.  And it seem to be working for trade sales.  It not there to piss off white people. If they do that them being to easly triggered.

I don't necessarily think its to do with white people per se. I think its more to do with a Feminist Agenda (hence they also replaced Black Panther with a woman a while back).

It seems to me that the comics are going out of their way to tell us women are smarter, better and stronger than their male counterparts. Its part and parcel of creating Mary Sues and bad stories.

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you keep saying in SJW shoved down your throat but some of the examples you either havent read, or when press you kind of admit not SJW.

The backbone of whats going on at Marvel is the Feminist Agenda/Identity Politics/SJW...call it what you will. Within the space of a few years most of the white male legacy characters have either:

A. Been replaced by Female knock-offs.
B. Been replaced by Diversified knock offs.
C. Aged or in some other way emasculated.
D. Made into little boys.

That to me is the main reason Marvels sales are suffering. Its not the only reason, but it is the biggest one in my opinion.

While I disagree with the political leanings within the comics of Kamela Khan and America Chavez I do applaud those characters for being original (if we overlook the Ms. Marvel name shuffling) minority characters.

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As for the spiderman thing, Thanson kind of showed spiderman was 15 when he stared and called himself spiderman.

I already replied to him.

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You said you enjoyed luke Cage. But Luke Cage when they first created was them openly trying to get a diverse character. It was more in your face then anything now. It a blackexplation character. And the show has shade of that. So sometimes you got to force it. Because they wanted defenders to be a mixture of people. You got a chick who main villain is a RAPE ALLLEGORY...in an interacial relationship.  Cage deals with black issues but still well enough to almost crash netflix. Sure it doesnt pop out as SJW to you because you grew up when he was already there. But someone at some point had to go "I want a strong black character..so I putting it in this comic"

Not exactly sure what you are getting at here.

Black Panther was certainly born out of the Civil Rights era. Luke Cage was created in the era of Blaxploitation movies (just as Iron Fist and Shang-Chi were created in the wave of HK martial arts movies of the same period). In both cases Marvel tapped the zeitgeist of what was popular/noteworthy at the time to appeal to readers. Same with Dazzler on the crest of the Disco era.

Note that all the above were original characters though, not simply rip-offs.

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with Xmen..someone at some point had to go "You know want to make an alegory for the civil rights. Prof X is mlk, and magento going malcom X. And you know what lets put in a powerfull woman from Africa" Storm was made a leader. If the internet was around sure you have people "Oh make an AFRICAN WOMAN a leader of the Xmen...it called the XMEN..or make Jean Grey the most powefull Xmen...FUCKING CUck"

clamermont was all about uber powerfull chicks

Never had a problem with Storm (unique character) or Jean Grey* (unique character). They created their own personalities and never piggybacked on anyone else.

*Though she does go all SJW in the latest X-Men book where she shouts at Angel for saving her life because she doesn't need a man's help.

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I never said YOU said blade failed because it a black lead. But you DID say Trinity failed becuase of BIEL girl power.

I said it failed because the movie was crap - one of the reasons being her beating up multiple guys in tac. armour with her fists while listening to music.

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and you did argue black leads generaly cant support a movie..and I argue depends on the lead.

No I never said anything of the sort.

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Differnce is when a non white male lead movie fails..they only factor in its not being a non white male lead for it success

And when it SUCCEED..they factor in everything else, so it wont be included as a exanple of one succeeding with a non white male lead

I think that's nonsense. I think African Americans are represented in the movies consistent with their demographic - as was proven last year when we had that "Oscars So White" bullshit (where they studied the past decade and they had been nominated in 12% of categories), which I think has subsequently tarnished all future black Oscar winners.

If anything I'd say Hispanic-Americans are under-represented in movies and comics though.
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: Upper_Krust on April 06, 2017, 07:53:49 PM
I think this analysis will provide a better take on the issue, but I didn't read more than a quarter of it:

https://icv2.com/articles/columns/view/37177/marvels-problem-isnt-diversity-its-much-bigger-and-its-not-just-marvels-problem#.WOUKxaW_sa8.facebook

Might get back to it but for now I turn it over to you for consideration

Interesting article. I certainly understand their point about the splitting market. That said I think the (comic book) format is always going to favour the direct market because those are the invested fans. But its possible you could make just as much money tapping the digital market for less with some subscription based system (which I know they already have in place).

I also agree that the (Direct Market) sales slump is not about diversity but, (IMO) mainly about too much politics.

Another good point it raises is that the Direct Market has 'walled itself off' to expansion and what we have are simply MORE 'players' asking for a slice of the same size market there has been for the past 30+ years. So comic sales overall are probably the same but simply there are more comics out there each month.

It also points out that its outside the Direct Market that companies can try more diversity and it might have merits in growing the market.

One of the final points it raises is:

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and a mass dilution of the core fan market to accommodate the larger potential audience (which has already happened, but no one wants to acknowledge).

This was likely happening anyway because of more comic book choice on the shelves.

We are sort of at that period where we (to use a tv analogy) have hundreds of channels to watch.

The next step might be the boom of the subscription style format - that is only practical on a digital level though.
Title: Re:"Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: therock on April 06, 2017, 08:20:25 PM
Even if your factor the budget. The budge was 45. Adding in half the budget it was 68 all together. That 131 million world wide. Not even factoring DVD. it was success. it was a succest where they made 2 movies. Th second movie made even more

You could always read my posts before replying you know.

I already explained that the studio only gets about 50% of the gross amount. So if the Gross amount was $131 million, they only netted about $65.5 million.

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So you can take it to far in realism. Not sure a woman kicking a man ass is taking it far and half the the shit vin disel pulls on a regular basis in his movies not

A woman kicking the ass of multiple men in tactical armour and helmets while listening to her MP3 is taking it TOO FAR in my opinion.

Quote
Yes vin disel wasnt a big star then. But someone decided to put him a movie when it wasnt and people still saw it. Enough for him to BECOME a  big star.  But you got to first try it. They tried making the movies have a diverse cast. If they had to worry about "I dont know is putting a non white guy kikcing someone butt is us making white guys into cuck"  you will never get a vin disel..or a rock. Someone got to try.. A thus they spread out thier market base.


If they explain and show why a woman can beat up multiple men in tac. armour then I might be okay with it. I loved Cynthia Rothrock movies back in the day. But not only was she a brilliant martial artist they always explain her skill in some way (like she's a martial arts teacher or champion or somesuch). In Daredevil we know Elektra has been training since she was little so we can understand her beating up a man or two - and even then they generally have her use the Sai rather than her fists.

Quote
WWE tried for a lot of mexican fighter thus got a lot of latino people watching wrestle. Eddie was HUGE before he died. If one to assume ONLY white guy sale movie then you would never get the francise viagra that is Dwayne Johnson. Or your Denzels. Or you Jet Li, Donnie Wong and such.

Luckily no one is saying lets have white guy only movies (or comics) so I don't know what you are going on about.

Quote
You wouldnt get a scarlet Johansan Lucy. Or Hunger Games. Movie have learn this. Comics slowly getting their feet wet with it

Lucy was of course a Mary Sue on a Rey/every current Marvel female level.

The Hunger Games were good though. But they didn't start Katniss as a badass, she's good with a bow (because she needed to be to feed her family - ie. its explained) and that's it. The rest she earns along the way.

Quote
You said your familarly with Kamelia is limited. So where you getting this idea she shoving SJW down your throat.  Or pushing some wild muslim agenda..if you havent read it. Your assuming that she doing that. From what other people saying she is not

I never said Ms. Marvel was doing that consistently - I simply pointed out that I have seen a comic (with her) where they made the (white) American Soldiers the villains. Added to which her writer is consistently posting SJW stuff on twitter.

Never said anything about any Muslim Agenda - more made up statements from you. You should start responding to my actual comments.

Quote
Moongirl is one of the many character who claim to be the smartesy or the best. They pop up every now and then it part of comics. Casandra was the best fighter for a while..she popped up. But to me that wanting to make a character for girls that are Awesome. Not WHITE MALES ARE DUMB.  Its targeting kids.  They want a hero that awesome.  And it seem to be working for trade sales.  It not there to piss off white people. If they do that them being to easly triggered.

I don't necessarily think its to do with white people per se. I think its more to do with a Feminist Agenda (hence they also replaced Black Panther with a woman a while back).

It seems to me that the comics are going out of their way to tell us women are smarter, better and stronger than their male counterparts. Its part and parcel of creating Mary Sues and bad stories.

Quote
you keep saying in SJW shoved down your throat but some of the examples you either havent read, or when press you kind of admit not SJW.

The backbone of whats going on at Marvel is the Feminist Agenda/Identity Politics/SJW...call it what you will. Within the space of a few years most of the white male legacy characters have either:

A. Been replaced by Female knock-offs.
B. Been replaced by Diversified knock offs.
C. Aged or in some other way emasculated.
D. Made into little boys.

That to me is the main reason Marvels sales are suffering. Its not the only reason, but it is the biggest one in my opinion.

While I disagree with the political leanings within the comics of Kamela Khan and America Chavez I do applaud those characters for being original (if we overlook the Ms. Marvel name shuffling) minority characters.

Quote
As for the spiderman thing, Thanson kind of showed spiderman was 15 when he stared and called himself spiderman.

I already replied to him.

Quote
You said you enjoyed luke Cage. But Luke Cage when they first created was them openly trying to get a diverse character. It was more in your face then anything now. It a blackexplation character. And the show has shade of that. So sometimes you got to force it. Because they wanted defenders to be a mixture of people. You got a chick who main villain is a RAPE ALLLEGORY...in an interacial relationship.  Cage deals with black issues but still well enough to almost crash netflix. Sure it doesnt pop out as SJW to you because you grew up when he was already there. But someone at some point had to go "I want a strong black character..so I putting it in this comic"

Not exactly sure what you are getting at here.

Black Panther was certainly born out of the Civil Rights era. Luke Cage was created in the era of Blaxploitation movies (just as Iron Fist and Shang-Chi were created in the wave of HK martial arts movies of the same period). In both cases Marvel tapped the zeitgeist of what was popular/noteworthy at the time to appeal to readers. Same with Dazzler on the crest of the Disco era.

Note that all the above were original characters though, not simply rip-offs.

Quote
with Xmen..someone at some point had to go "You know want to make an alegory for the civil rights. Prof X is mlk, and magento going malcom X. And you know what lets put in a powerfull woman from Africa" Storm was made a leader. If the internet was around sure you have people "Oh make an AFRICAN WOMAN a leader of the Xmen...it called the XMEN..or make Jean Grey the most powefull Xmen...FUCKING CUck"

clamermont was all about uber powerfull chicks

Never had a problem with Storm (unique character) or Jean Grey* (unique character). They created their own personalities and never piggybacked on anyone else.

*Though she does go all SJW in the latest X-Men book where she shouts at Angel for saving her life because she doesn't need a man's help.

Quote
I never said YOU said blade failed because it a black lead. But you DID say Trinity failed becuase of BIEL girl power.

I said it failed because the movie was crap - one of the reasons being her beating up multiple guys in tac. armour with her fists while listening to music.

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and you did argue black leads generaly cant support a movie..and I argue depends on the lead.

No I never said anything of the sort.

Quote
Differnce is when a non white male lead movie fails..they only factor in its not being a non white male lead for it success

And when it SUCCEED..they factor in everything else, so it wont be included as a exanple of one succeeding with a non white male lead

I think that's nonsense. I think African Americans are represented in the movies consistent with their demographic - as was proven last year when we had that "Oscars So White" bullshit (where they studied the past decade and they had been nominated in 12% of categories), which I think has subsequently tarnished all future black Oscar winners.

If anything I'd say Hispanic-Americans are under-represented in movies and comics though.


and 65 PURE PROFIT, not counting DVD sales is a good profit for an R rated superhero movie at that time. Most superheo movies werent make that level of cash..let alone R rated movies. it was enough apparent to lanch 2 more sequels, a TV series and maybe got them to do Xmen

So women kicking butt is to far, but Tom cruise hanging from a plane and outrunning a sand storm not. That seem and odd line to draw. In most movie where women kikcing butt they do show it they have martia arts skill.  In comics, trainied with another martia artist..guy or girl you become an expert martial artist pretty quickly.

Well you kind of are saying lets have white guys. If a few diverse books considering ABANDOING white people.  Because so far, MOST of the books still white guys.  If a handfull of books consider SJW..then it send out a message..making any books that dont have white males as a star just to much of a hassle because people might lose it

Call Lucy a mary sue if you want...shit made money. Most BAD ASS action stars are are mary drues. That what bad ass action stars do. They kick people asses in increasinly unrealistic ways. Also Lucy had an explantion for her power. Which as you said makes that ok. she had super powers, So if that not a good enough explantion dont know what is. She got given a drug that increase giving her powers.  It was limitless with a anime influence. Hell it more of an explantion then a lot of the male heroes people ok with. No one explain how a bunch of car theives suddnely super spys who know kung fu in the fast and furious movies. They just do. People go with it because fuck it, its a movie



Agree hispnaics unrepsented. That why i say DIVERSITY is good. Not just more blacks is good. I wouldnt mind seieng more hispnaics, and more other races. That kind of what marvel was trying to do it


Again how are there new comic emasaculting heroes.  How is ms marvel emasculating anyone. She has a name of another woman for crying out loud. How is moongirl replacing anyone



As you list of exampels...no one was made into a little boy. Spiderman first started as a kid..and the grown spiderman still around.
The only ones that a replacement that pops to mind

Thor- selling well
Spiderman- From an altnerate universe adn really popular
Spider Gwen- Alternate universe..and spiderman sitll around and pretyty popular
x-23- Wolverine still around. And X-23 actully been around for a while. She was made of the Xmen evoliuton televions seris in 2003.  Later in nyx in 2004.  She her own character. Enough to put her in one of the best Xmen movies out there. So she went the path people say you should go. Slowly building up her character and being introduce in different books. That over 13 years. If that stuffing things down your throat, then that the most gentle throat stuffing ever

Let me ask the issue of ms marvel you refering to..have you actully read that iddur or did you just read people talk about it



Title: Re:"Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: g-train on April 06, 2017, 10:22:22 PM
Tossing minorities the crumbs or tokenism is nothing new. 
That would just be maintaining the status quo.

So what? If the Market isn't there to sustain one or more black lead titles you can't magically expand the market out of your ass. Your best bet is to try and get white male readers to buy it.

If its a minority market, then there are less people within the core demographic you are targeting.

I was watching BBC world news or some similar show last night and they were reporting from South Africa and in the background was a billboard for what looked like a tv cop show and as it happened all the four characters on the billboard were black. My point is, South Africa probably has lots of shows with primarily only Black Actors or at least Black leads, despite the 9% white population, because THERE white folks are the MINORITY.

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I disagree that the movies do this.  The movies are significantly more successful with minority and female lead roles.  It's why a Blade movie could be successful enough to have two sequels while a Blade comic can barely last a few issues.  Heck, Blade is the first of Marvel's modern day slate of theatrical releases.

The first Blade movie only JUST made money at the box office (in fact arguably it didn't make money until dvd sales). Same for Blade 2. Blade Trinity LOST money at the box office.

If a typical white male hero comic sells 40,000 in the US to the 105 million or so white men who comprise its predominant audience.
Then what should a black male hero comic sell to the 15 million or so black men who make up its predominant target audience?

Incidentally 1/8th of 40k is 5000.

Now YES we both understand you don't need to be the same colour or gender to enjoy a comic or movie or anything.

But by demographics alone the Market can probably sustain one black lead title for every 8 white leads. I'd estimate the same number of female lead titles could be sustained (about 1:8 ). Beyond that, you need to make the white male readers interested in the character/book for it to be sustainable.

If anything its the Hispanic community in the US that is vastly underrepresented in comics...its just a pity the America book is a complete SJ-fest.

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This really goes to show how different the Marvel movie audience is compared to the traditional comicbook audience.  Comicbook fanboys are pretty set in their ways.

Not sure I agree with this; you understand of course that EVERY SINGLE Female lead title or non-white lead title has been (for its duration) sustained primarily by white male readers.

Exactly what more do you want white male readers to do...abandon reading titles with white male characters to prop up the sales of minority and female lead books? You could argue Marvel have tried to make that decision for them by replacing white male characters. Not working out great though is it.

http://www.boxofficemojo.com/search/?q=Blade

Wouldnt Say Blade squeak by making money

it had a 17 million opening weeknd..was was pretty good at the time for the movie of its type since people were making a billion a week at times. Namely given its was R rate, about a not well known charcter

Blade 3 had a 30 million opening weeknd

And trinity 3 sucked because it was a nightstalkers movie and not a blade. If the logic stands that its a black movie that brings it down, adding that many white people should of made MORE money

Not to mention Fast and Furious a VERY multie cultural movie. Adding diversity doesnt mean white people case to exist

A no one saying they have to abandon white titles.  Hey if a story that happen to have a NON white male in a title is good...then its a good book. Read it base on that. There still plenty of white male titles. MOST of them are white male titles. Including a lot of the failing ones. Not to mention all the resident evil and underworlds make money..that why they keep making them

different is when one of those comics, or movie shit the bed they dont go "Shit guess people dont want to see movies with white people"

Can understand white male comics reader may want to see a character that they can idenify with. But as a black guy if every character was a black guy coming from the black perspective, in all of media..I would eventully get bored

Not Asian..but I love manga, and Anime

Not in the mob, not from their culture but Love mob movies. Not from the hood (a wack us nerd) but love NWA.  Wasn't raise in the man man era, or the 50's but love Happy Days and Mad men. I dont have to be a latino lesbian to like Montaya in the Gotham Central books.  Or love Lucha underground,  and the EL Mariachi trilogy

These things bring different perspective that could bring an interersting story with them. It brings a differen ideas, outlooks and style

You dont have to raise in the east to enjoy a bruce Lee, Jet Li, or Jackie Chan movie

Ghost in a Shell only made what 19 million it's opening week?  And that's with a white powerhouse actress as the lead.  And inflation making it look better.

Who knows maybe having some diversity and an asian in the lead role would have helped it a little.
Title: Re:"Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: therock on April 06, 2017, 10:40:33 PM
Tossing minorities the crumbs or tokenism is nothing new. 
That would just be maintaining the status quo.

So what? If the Market isn't there to sustain one or more black lead titles you can't magically expand the market out of your ass. Your best bet is to try and get white male readers to buy it.

If its a minority market, then there are less people within the core demographic you are targeting.

I was watching BBC world news or some similar show last night and they were reporting from South Africa and in the background was a billboard for what looked like a tv cop show and as it happened all the four characters on the billboard were black. My point is, South Africa probably has lots of shows with primarily only Black Actors or at least Black leads, despite the 9% white population, because THERE white folks are the MINORITY.

Quote
I disagree that the movies do this.  The movies are significantly more successful with minority and female lead roles.  It's why a Blade movie could be successful enough to have two sequels while a Blade comic can barely last a few issues.  Heck, Blade is the first of Marvel's modern day slate of theatrical releases.

The first Blade movie only JUST made money at the box office (in fact arguably it didn't make money until dvd sales). Same for Blade 2. Blade Trinity LOST money at the box office.

If a typical white male hero comic sells 40,000 in the US to the 105 million or so white men who comprise its predominant audience.
Then what should a black male hero comic sell to the 15 million or so black men who make up its predominant target audience?

Incidentally 1/8th of 40k is 5000.

Now YES we both understand you don't need to be the same colour or gender to enjoy a comic or movie or anything.

But by demographics alone the Market can probably sustain one black lead title for every 8 white leads. I'd estimate the same number of female lead titles could be sustained (about 1:8 ). Beyond that, you need to make the white male readers interested in the character/book for it to be sustainable.

If anything its the Hispanic community in the US that is vastly underrepresented in comics...its just a pity the America book is a complete SJ-fest.

Quote
This really goes to show how different the Marvel movie audience is compared to the traditional comicbook audience.  Comicbook fanboys are pretty set in their ways.

Not sure I agree with this; you understand of course that EVERY SINGLE Female lead title or non-white lead title has been (for its duration) sustained primarily by white male readers.

Exactly what more do you want white male readers to do...abandon reading titles with white male characters to prop up the sales of minority and female lead books? You could argue Marvel have tried to make that decision for them by replacing white male characters. Not working out great though is it.

http://www.boxofficemojo.com/search/?q=Blade

Wouldnt Say Blade squeak by making money

it had a 17 million opening weeknd..was was pretty good at the time for the movie of its type since people were making a billion a week at times. Namely given its was R rate, about a not well known charcter

Blade 3 had a 30 million opening weeknd

And trinity 3 sucked because it was a nightstalkers movie and not a blade. If the logic stands that its a black movie that brings it down, adding that many white people should of made MORE money

Not to mention Fast and Furious a VERY multie cultural movie. Adding diversity doesnt mean white people case to exist

A no one saying they have to abandon white titles.  Hey if a story that happen to have a NON white male in a title is good...then its a good book. Read it base on that. There still plenty of white male titles. MOST of them are white male titles. Including a lot of the failing ones. Not to mention all the resident evil and underworlds make money..that why they keep making them

different is when one of those comics, or movie shit the bed they dont go "Shit guess people dont want to see movies with white people"

Can understand white male comics reader may want to see a character that they can idenify with. But as a black guy if every character was a black guy coming from the black perspective, in all of media..I would eventully get bored

Not Asian..but I love manga, and Anime

Not in the mob, not from their culture but Love mob movies. Not from the hood (a wack us nerd) but love NWA.  Wasn't raise in the man man era, or the 50's but love Happy Days and Mad men. I dont have to be a latino lesbian to like Montaya in the Gotham Central books.  Or love Lucha underground,  and the EL Mariachi trilogy

These things bring different perspective that could bring an interersting story with them. It brings a differen ideas, outlooks and style

You dont have to raise in the east to enjoy a bruce Lee, Jet Li, or Jackie Chan movie

Ghost in a Shell only made what 19 million it's opening week?  And that's with a white powerhouse actress as the lead.  And inflation making it look better.

Who knows maybe having some diversity and an asian in the lead role would have helped it a little.

YOU DAMM SJW

Title: Re:"Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: g-train on April 06, 2017, 10:45:52 PM
Tossing minorities the crumbs or tokenism is nothing new. 
That would just be maintaining the status quo.

So what? If the Market isn't there to sustain one or more black lead titles you can't magically expand the market out of your ass. Your best bet is to try and get white male readers to buy it.

If its a minority market, then there are less people within the core demographic you are targeting.

I was watching BBC world news or some similar show last night and they were reporting from South Africa and in the background was a billboard for what looked like a tv cop show and as it happened all the four characters on the billboard were black. My point is, South Africa probably has lots of shows with primarily only Black Actors or at least Black leads, despite the 9% white population, because THERE white folks are the MINORITY.

Quote
I disagree that the movies do this.  The movies are significantly more successful with minority and female lead roles.  It's why a Blade movie could be successful enough to have two sequels while a Blade comic can barely last a few issues.  Heck, Blade is the first of Marvel's modern day slate of theatrical releases.

The first Blade movie only JUST made money at the box office (in fact arguably it didn't make money until dvd sales). Same for Blade 2. Blade Trinity LOST money at the box office.

If a typical white male hero comic sells 40,000 in the US to the 105 million or so white men who comprise its predominant audience.
Then what should a black male hero comic sell to the 15 million or so black men who make up its predominant target audience?

Incidentally 1/8th of 40k is 5000.

Now YES we both understand you don't need to be the same colour or gender to enjoy a comic or movie or anything.

But by demographics alone the Market can probably sustain one black lead title for every 8 white leads. I'd estimate the same number of female lead titles could be sustained (about 1:8 ). Beyond that, you need to make the white male readers interested in the character/book for it to be sustainable.

If anything its the Hispanic community in the US that is vastly underrepresented in comics...its just a pity the America book is a complete SJ-fest.

Quote
This really goes to show how different the Marvel movie audience is compared to the traditional comicbook audience.  Comicbook fanboys are pretty set in their ways.

Not sure I agree with this; you understand of course that EVERY SINGLE Female lead title or non-white lead title has been (for its duration) sustained primarily by white male readers.

Exactly what more do you want white male readers to do...abandon reading titles with white male characters to prop up the sales of minority and female lead books? You could argue Marvel have tried to make that decision for them by replacing white male characters. Not working out great though is it.

http://www.boxofficemojo.com/search/?q=Blade

Wouldnt Say Blade squeak by making money

it had a 17 million opening weeknd..was was pretty good at the time for the movie of its type since people were making a billion a week at times. Namely given its was R rate, about a not well known charcter

Blade 3 had a 30 million opening weeknd

And trinity 3 sucked because it was a nightstalkers movie and not a blade. If the logic stands that its a black movie that brings it down, adding that many white people should of made MORE money

Not to mention Fast and Furious a VERY multie cultural movie. Adding diversity doesnt mean white people case to exist

A no one saying they have to abandon white titles.  Hey if a story that happen to have a NON white male in a title is good...then its a good book. Read it base on that. There still plenty of white male titles. MOST of them are white male titles. Including a lot of the failing ones. Not to mention all the resident evil and underworlds make money..that why they keep making them

different is when one of those comics, or movie shit the bed they dont go "Shit guess people dont want to see movies with white people"

Can understand white male comics reader may want to see a character that they can idenify with. But as a black guy if every character was a black guy coming from the black perspective, in all of media..I would eventully get bored

Not Asian..but I love manga, and Anime

Not in the mob, not from their culture but Love mob movies. Not from the hood (a wack us nerd) but love NWA.  Wasn't raise in the man man era, or the 50's but love Happy Days and Mad men. I dont have to be a latino lesbian to like Montaya in the Gotham Central books.  Or love Lucha underground,  and the EL Mariachi trilogy

These things bring different perspective that could bring an interersting story with them. It brings a differen ideas, outlooks and style

You dont have to raise in the east to enjoy a bruce Lee, Jet Li, or Jackie Chan movie

Ghost in a Shell only made what 19 million it's opening week?  And that's with a white powerhouse actress as the lead.  And inflation making it look better.

Who knows maybe having some diversity and an asian in the lead role would have helped it a little.

YOU DAMM SJW

Damn.....all these years I've been passing as an Alt-Righter but you finally found me out.
Title: Re:"Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: Upper_Krust on April 07, 2017, 10:50:57 AM
and 65 PURE PROFIT, not counting DVD sales is a good profit for an R rated superhero movie at that time. Most superheo movies werent make that level of cash..let alone R rated movies. it was enough apparent to lanch 2 more sequels, a TV series and maybe got them to do Xmen.

I'll try and explain this to you one last time.

Blade's production cost $45 million + (we agreed) around $22.5 million for marketing = -$67.5 million
Blade grossed $131 million OF THAT the studio only makes about 50%, so they only NETTED +$65.5 million.

$65.5 million MINUS $67.5 million is a LOSS of $2 million.

Yes it still made a profit after DVD and merchandising but it probably didn't make a profit at the box office or if it did it was a tiny one.

Quote
So women kicking butt is to far,

Women (with little to no explanation) knocking out multiple guys in full tac armour with punches to the chest while listening to their MP3 players is a step beyond what I am willing to accept as 'quasi-realistic'.

Quote
but Tom cruise hanging from a plane and outrunning a sand storm not. That seem and odd line to draw.

Given that I (and indeed most people) don't have any understanding of how difficult hanging from a plane is I can accept this as possible.

I don't recall seeing him outrunning a sandstorm; what movie is this from, the recent Mummy or one of the Mission Impossibles? If its from the Mummy then presumably he merely outraced a Magic Sandstorm. Its stretching disbelief but not breaking it.

Quote
In most movie where women kikcing butt they do show it they have martia arts skill.
 

I'd like to think so, but in the Biel case they never made a case for why her punches could put down (presumably trained) men in full body armour and helmets. Again it made sense when Super-strong Blade beat these guys up. It looks stupid when a girl with no powers does it.

Quote
In comics, trainied with another martia artist..guy or girl you become an expert martial artist pretty quickly.

Yes they should call such a style 'Kung-Fool'.

Quote
Well you kind of are saying lets have white guys.

Where have I said anything of the sort?

Quote
If a few diverse books considering ABANDOING white people.
 

Probably closer to a dozen and counting.

Quote
Because so far, MOST of the books still white guys.
 

Not exactly. Marvel have about 52 superhero books per month (not counting Event books). 10 team, 21 male lead and 21 female lead. A quick 'eyeballing' suggests around 13 white male lead books and 15 white female lead books.

Quote
If a handfull of books consider SJW..then it send out a message..making any books that dont have white males as a star just to much of a hassle because people might lose it.

Its not just a handful, its about a dozen books including most of their highest profile books.

Quote
Call Lucy a mary sue if you want...shit made money.

I agree it did. I thought it was a bit crap. She steamrollers every group of men without breaking much of a sweat. At no point is the movie exciting. Visually its quite pretty, but that's about it. She's a complete Mary Sue.

Quote
Most BAD ASS action stars are are mary drues. That what bad ass action stars do. They kick people asses in increasinly unrealistic ways.

Fast & Furious #7, The Rock gets blown out of a building after a tough fight with Statham and ends up in the hospital for half the movie.

Yes he's badass BUT THEY STILL MADE HIM VULNERABLE.

Quote
Also Lucy had an explantion for her power. Which as you said makes that ok. she had super powers, So if that not a good enough explantion dont know what is. She got given a drug that increase giving her powers.  It was limitless with a anime influence. Hell it more of an explantion then a lot of the male heroes people ok with.


Lucy did have an explanation for her powers, I'm not saying stuff (in this case) wasn't explained well enough. I'm saying the action scenes were BORING because Lucy is NEVER in any trouble once she gets the drug. To have good action scenes you need drama - you have to make the audience THINK the hero could lose; even though deep down we suspect/know they will win.

Quote
No one explain how a bunch of car theives suddnely super spys who know kung fu in the fast and furious movies. They just do. People go with it because fuck it, its a movie

The only person demonstrating Martial Arts ability in F&F was Paul Walker a trained (undercover) cop. Diesel is a Brawler (as is the Rock). Michelle has some skillz but they usually put her up against other women (as in the Rowsey fight) or the occasional (no name) random thug.

Quote
Agree hispnaics unrepsented. That why i say DIVERSITY is good. Not just more blacks is good. I wouldnt mind seieng more hispnaics, and more other races. That kind of what marvel was trying to do it.

Well certainly the idea of America Chavez is a great one, unfortunately in execution her solo title is beyond terrible (nice art though).

Quote
Again how are there new comic emasaculting heroes.


1. Making heroes villains
2. By Aging heroes to old men
3. By turning men into boys
4. By turning men into women
5. By making (formerly) straight men gay/bisexual
6. In Thor's case disabling him, stealing his name, stealing his hammer and making him unworthy
7. In Odin's case questioning whether he can 'get it up'
8. In general turning characters into Emo-versions of themselves

...stuff like that.

Quote
How is ms marvel emasculating anyone. She has a name of another woman for crying out loud.


I never said Ms Marvel was specifically emasculating anyone.

Quote
How is moongirl replacing anyone

...because she replaced Moon Boy.  ::)

Quote
As you list of exampels...no one was made into a little boy. Spiderman first started as a kid..and the grown spiderman still around.
The only ones that a replacement that pops to mind

Nova - made into a kid
Cyclops - made into a kid
arguably Hulk; given that Cho is still probably about 18
Iron Man - made into a female kid

Quote
Thor- selling well

Sales down 40% in 12 months, 41st best selling comic is apparently a sign of success at Marvel now.

Quote
Spiderman- From an altnerate universe adn really popular

The 61st ranked comic of Feb 2017.

Quote
Spider Gwen- Alternate universe..

The 81st ranked comic.

Quote
and spiderman sitll around and pretyty popular

Marvel's flagship character is still doing okay, not sure 60k sales is good for Spiderman but its still Marvel's best seller.

Quote
x-23- Wolverine still around. And X-23 actully been around for a while. She was made of the Xmen evoliuton televions seris in 2003.  Later in nyx in 2004.  She her own character. Enough to put her in one of the best Xmen movies out there. So she went the path people say you should go. Slowly building up her character and being introduce in different books. That over 13 years. If that stuffing things down your throat, then that the most gentle throat stuffing ever

Never had a problem with X-23 until they decided to call her Wolverine. If "She her own character" why did they need to call her Wolverine, because call me crazy that sounds the EXACT OPPOSITE of her being her own character.

Quote
Let me ask the issue of ms marvel you refering to..have you actully read that iddur or did you just read people talk about it

It may have been an issue of Champions (from a few months ago) featuring Ms Marvel (same writer anyway). It was a youtube review that showed the pages.
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: scourge on April 07, 2017, 10:55:15 AM
I should have gone to see Ghost in the Shell to support the idea that I actually don't think an anime character has to be played by an Asian actress for the movie to be good. On the other hand it got 48% on RT. Maybe that was critics expressing their distaste for that decision? IDFK
Title: Re:"Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: therock on April 07, 2017, 12:28:38 PM
and 65 PURE PROFIT, not counting DVD sales is a good profit for an R rated superhero movie at that time. Most superheo movies werent make that level of cash..let alone R rated movies. it was enough apparent to lanch 2 more sequels, a TV series and maybe got them to do Xmen.

I'll try and explain this to you one last time.

Blade's production cost $45 million + (we agreed) around $22.5 million for marketing = -$67.5 million
Blade grossed $131 million OF THAT the studio only makes about 50%, so they only NETTED +$65.5 million.

$65.5 million MINUS $67.5 million is a LOSS of $2 million.

Yes it still made a profit after DVD and merchandising but it probably didn't make a profit at the box office or if it did it was a tiny one.

Quote
So women kicking butt is to far,

Women (with little to no explanation) knocking out multiple guys in full tac armour with punches to the chest while listening to their MP3 players is a step beyond what I am willing to accept as 'quasi-realistic'.

Quote
but Tom cruise hanging from a plane and outrunning a sand storm not. That seem and odd line to draw.

Given that I (and indeed most people) don't have any understanding of how difficult hanging from a plane is I can accept this as possible.

I don't recall seeing him outrunning a sandstorm; what movie is this from, the recent Mummy or one of the Mission Impossibles? If its from the Mummy then presumably he merely outraced a Magic Sandstorm. Its stretching disbelief but not breaking it.

Quote
In most movie where women kikcing butt they do show it they have martia arts skill.
 

I'd like to think so, but in the Biel case they never made a case for why her punches could put down (presumably trained) men in full body armour and helmets. Again it made sense when Super-strong Blade beat these guys up. It looks stupid when a girl with no powers does it.

Quote
In comics, trainied with another martia artist..guy or girl you become an expert martial artist pretty quickly.

Yes they should call such a style 'Kung-Fool'.

Quote
Well you kind of are saying lets have white guys.

Where have I said anything of the sort?

Quote
If a few diverse books considering ABANDOING white people.
 

Probably closer to a dozen and counting.

Quote
Because so far, MOST of the books still white guys.
 

Not exactly. Marvel have about 52 superhero books per month (not counting Event books). 10 team, 21 male lead and 21 female lead. A quick 'eyeballing' suggests around 13 white male lead books and 15 white female lead books.

Quote
If a handfull of books consider SJW..then it send out a message..making any books that dont have white males as a star just to much of a hassle because people might lose it.

Its not just a handful, its about a dozen books including most of their highest profile books.

Quote
Call Lucy a mary sue if you want...shit made money.

I agree it did. I thought it was a bit crap. She steamrollers every group of men without breaking much of a sweat. At no point is the movie exciting. Visually its quite pretty, but that's about it. She's a complete Mary Sue.

Quote
Most BAD ASS action stars are are mary drues. That what bad ass action stars do. They kick people asses in increasinly unrealistic ways.

Fast & Furious #7, The Rock gets blown out of a building after a tough fight with Statham and ends up in the hospital for half the movie.

Yes he's badass BUT THEY STILL MADE HIM VULNERABLE.

Quote
Also Lucy had an explantion for her power. Which as you said makes that ok. she had super powers, So if that not a good enough explantion dont know what is. She got given a drug that increase giving her powers.  It was limitless with a anime influence. Hell it more of an explantion then a lot of the male heroes people ok with.


Lucy did have an explanation for her powers, I'm not saying stuff (in this case) wasn't explained well enough. I'm saying the action scenes were BORING because Lucy is NEVER in any trouble once she gets the drug. To have good action scenes you need drama - you have to make the audience THINK the hero could lose; even though deep down we suspect/know they will win.

Quote
No one explain how a bunch of car theives suddnely super spys who know kung fu in the fast and furious movies. They just do. People go with it because fuck it, its a movie

The only person demonstrating Martial Arts ability in F&F was Paul Walker a trained (undercover) cop. Diesel is a Brawler (as is the Rock). Michelle has some skillz but they usually put her up against other women (as in the Rowsey fight) or the occasional (no name) random thug.

Quote
Agree hispnaics unrepsented. That why i say DIVERSITY is good. Not just more blacks is good. I wouldnt mind seieng more hispnaics, and more other races. That kind of what marvel was trying to do it.

Well certainly the idea of America Chavez is a great one, unfortunately in execution her solo title is beyond terrible (nice art though).

Quote
Again how are there new comic emasaculting heroes.


1. Making heroes villains
2. By Aging heroes to old men
3. By turning men into boys
4. By turning men into women
5. By making (formerly) straight men gay/bisexual
6. In Thor's case disabling him, stealing his name, stealing his hammer and making him unworthy
7. In Odin's case questioning whether he can 'get it up'
8. In general turning characters into Emo-versions of themselves

...stuff like that.

Quote
How is ms marvel emasculating anyone. She has a name of another woman for crying out loud.


I never said Ms Marvel was specifically emasculating anyone.

Quote
How is moongirl replacing anyone

...because she replaced Moon Boy.  ::)

Quote
As you list of exampels...no one was made into a little boy. Spiderman first started as a kid..and the grown spiderman still around.
The only ones that a replacement that pops to mind

Nova - made into a kid
Cyclops - made into a kid
arguably Hulk; given that Cho is still probably about 18
Iron Man - made into a female kid

Quote
Thor- selling well

Sales down 40% in 12 months, 41st best selling comic is apparently a sign of success at Marvel now.

Quote
Spiderman- From an altnerate universe adn really popular

The 61st ranked comic of Feb 2017.

Quote
Spider Gwen- Alternate universe..

The 81st ranked comic.

Quote
and spiderman sitll around and pretyty popular

Marvel's flagship character is still doing okay, not sure 60k sales is good for Spiderman but its still Marvel's best seller.

Quote
x-23- Wolverine still around. And X-23 actully been around for a while. She was made of the Xmen evoliuton televions seris in 2003.  Later in nyx in 2004.  She her own character. Enough to put her in one of the best Xmen movies out there. So she went the path people say you should go. Slowly building up her character and being introduce in different books. That over 13 years. If that stuffing things down your throat, then that the most gentle throat stuffing ever

Never had a problem with X-23 until they decided to call her Wolverine. If "She her own character" why did they need to call her Wolverine, because call me crazy that sounds the EXACT OPPOSITE of her being her own character.

Quote
Let me ask the issue of ms marvel you refering to..have you actully read that iddur or did you just read people talk about it

It may have been an issue of Champions (from a few months ago) featuring Ms Marvel (same writer anyway). It was a youtube review that showed the pages.

talk about the other stuff but the idea the studio only gets 50 percent if tickets sales is just wrong
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: therock on April 07, 2017, 12:33:39 PM
http://www.themovieblog.com/2007/10/economics-of-the-movie-theater-where-the-money-goes-and-why-it-costs-us-so-much/
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: Upper_Krust on April 07, 2017, 12:40:24 PM
I should have gone to see Ghost in the Shell to support the idea that I actually don't think an anime character has to be played by an Asian actress for the movie to be good. On the other hand it got 48% on RT. Maybe that was critics expressing their distaste for that decision? IDFK

I went to see the movie last week. It was okay - I'd give it maybe 6/10. I think part of the problem is the lack of emotion from the main character for most of the movie. Yes she's indirectly playing a robot so I can understand a lack of emotion, but I think the movie really lacks any 'character'...from the main star at least.

The action scenes were okay I guess; I quite liked the stealth-camo fight even though its a total squash.

The setting was pretty cool looking, but nothing we haven't seen a dozen times before (no doubt with many past elements from the 30 year old anime copied time and time again since).
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: NeoGreenLantern on April 07, 2017, 12:50:09 PM
I heard the dialogue is clunky and they beat you over the head with the term "ghost in the shell"
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: Upper_Krust on April 07, 2017, 12:51:24 PM
http://www.themovieblog.com/2007/10/economics-of-the-movie-theater-where-the-money-goes-and-why-it-costs-us-so-much/

I already knew all that, but you were having a hard time grasping the concept of a studio netting 50% of the profits (which is still probably the best rule of thumb anyway) that there was no point confusing you any further.

Here is my quote from page #11 in this thread

Quote
You understand of course that the studio only NETS around 50% of the gross (its a tad more complicated than that but the 50% is the easiest rule of thumb).

Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: Upper_Krust on April 07, 2017, 12:58:24 PM
I heard the dialogue is clunky and they beat you over the head with the term "ghost in the shell"

The dialogue was just kinda 'there' - again I think the lack of emotion in the delivery is one of the main problems.

They DO go on about a person's 'Ghost' quite a lot, it didn't seem offensive on the explanation stuff though - it was all pretty straightforward.

Weirdly I had never seen the original anime (even though I have watched quite a lot of anime) so I can't say how the movie stacks up against the original source material.

I think, like John Carter of Mars, we have seen so many of the ideas pilfered and used in other movies and television shows already that its just too late to have any real impact on audiences. What would have been cutting edge 30 years ago is just vanilla sci-fi now.
Title: Re:"Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: therock on April 07, 2017, 01:05:39 PM
and 65 PURE PROFIT, not counting DVD sales is a good profit for an R rated superhero movie at that time. Most superheo movies werent make that level of cash..let alone R rated movies. it was enough apparent to lanch 2 more sequels, a TV series and maybe got them to do Xmen.

I'll try and explain this to you one last time.

Blade's production cost $45 million + (we agreed) around $22.5 million for marketing = -$67.5 million
Blade grossed $131 million OF THAT the studio only makes about 50%, so they only NETTED +$65.5 million.

$65.5 million MINUS $67.5 million is a LOSS of $2 million.

Comment on the other stuff.

First off all the fast crew are spies who know martia artis. Even ludacris pulled off martial arts move..fucing ludacris. Tyrese as well did some stuff. So basicly you got a group of car theifs, fighting a bunch of high trained mercenaries and pulling James Bond level shit with zero explanation



Yes it still made a profit after DVD and merchandising but it probably didn't make a profit at the box office or if it did it was a tiny one.

Quote
So women kicking butt is to far,

Women (with little to no explanation) knocking out multiple guys in full tac armour with punches to the chest while listening to their MP3 players is a step beyond what I am willing to accept as 'quasi-realistic'.

Quote
but Tom cruise hanging from a plane and outrunning a sand storm not. That seem and odd line to draw.

Given that I (and indeed most people) don't have any understanding of how difficult hanging from a plane is I can accept this as possible.

I don't recall seeing him outrunning a sandstorm; what movie is this from, the recent Mummy or one of the Mission Impossibles? If its from the Mummy then presumably he merely outraced a Magic Sandstorm. Its stretching disbelief but not breaking it.

Quote
In most movie where women kikcing butt they do show it they have martia arts skill.
 

I'd like to think so, but in the Biel case they never made a case for why her punches could put down (presumably trained) men in full body armour and helmets. Again it made sense when Super-strong Blade beat these guys up. It looks stupid when a girl with no powers does it.

Quote
In comics, trainied with another martia artist..guy or girl you become an expert martial artist pretty quickly.

Yes they should call such a style 'Kung-Fool'.

Quote
Well you kind of are saying lets have white guys.

Where have I said anything of the sort?

Quote
If a few diverse books considering ABANDOING white people.
 

Probably closer to a dozen and counting.

Quote
Because so far, MOST of the books still white guys.
 

Not exactly. Marvel have about 52 superhero books per month (not counting Event books). 10 team, 21 male lead and 21 female lead. A quick 'eyeballing' suggests around 13 white male lead books and 15 white female lead books.

Quote
If a handfull of books consider SJW..then it send out a message..making any books that dont have white males as a star just to much of a hassle because people might lose it.

Its not just a handful, its about a dozen books including most of their highest profile books.

Quote
Call Lucy a mary sue if you want...shit made money.

I agree it did. I thought it was a bit crap. She steamrollers every group of men without breaking much of a sweat. At no point is the movie exciting. Visually its quite pretty, but that's about it. She's a complete Mary Sue.

Quote
Most BAD ASS action stars are are mary drues. That what bad ass action stars do. They kick people asses in increasinly unrealistic ways.

Fast & Furious #7, The Rock gets blown out of a building after a tough fight with Statham and ends up in the hospital for half the movie.

Yes he's badass BUT THEY STILL MADE HIM VULNERABLE.

Quote
Also Lucy had an explantion for her power. Which as you said makes that ok. she had super powers, So if that not a good enough explantion dont know what is. She got given a drug that increase giving her powers.  It was limitless with a anime influence. Hell it more of an explantion then a lot of the male heroes people ok with.


Lucy did have an explanation for her powers, I'm not saying stuff (in this case) wasn't explained well enough. I'm saying the action scenes were BORING because Lucy is NEVER in any trouble once she gets the drug. To have good action scenes you need drama - you have to make the audience THINK the hero could lose; even though deep down we suspect/know they will win.

Quote
No one explain how a bunch of car theives suddnely super spys who know kung fu in the fast and furious movies. They just do. People go with it because fuck it, its a movie

The only person demonstrating Martial Arts ability in F&F was Paul Walker a trained (undercover) cop. Diesel is a Brawler (as is the Rock). Michelle has some skillz but they usually put her up against other women (as in the Rowsey fight) or the occasional (no name) random thug.

Quote
Agree hispnaics unrepsented. That why i say DIVERSITY is good. Not just more blacks is good. I wouldnt mind seieng more hispnaics, and more other races. That kind of what marvel was trying to do it.

Well certainly the idea of America Chavez is a great one, unfortunately in execution her solo title is beyond terrible (nice art though).

Quote
Again how are there new comic emasaculting heroes.


1. Making heroes villains
2. By Aging heroes to old men
3. By turning men into boys
4. By turning men into women
5. By making (formerly) straight men gay/bisexual
6. In Thor's case disabling him, stealing his name, stealing his hammer and making him unworthy
7. In Odin's case questioning whether he can 'get it up'
8. In general turning characters into Emo-versions of themselves

...stuff like that.

Quote
How is ms marvel emasculating anyone. She has a name of another woman for crying out loud.


I never said Ms Marvel was specifically emasculating anyone.

Quote
How is moongirl replacing anyone

...because she replaced Moon Boy.  ::)

Quote
As you list of exampels...no one was made into a little boy. Spiderman first started as a kid..and the grown spiderman still around.
The only ones that a replacement that pops to mind

Nova - made into a kid
Cyclops - made into a kid
arguably Hulk; given that Cho is still probably about 18
Iron Man - made into a female kid

Quote
Thor- selling well

Sales down 40% in 12 months, 41st best selling comic is apparently a sign of success at Marvel now.

Quote
Spiderman- From an altnerate universe adn really popular

The 61st ranked comic of Feb 2017.

Quote
Spider Gwen- Alternate universe..

The 81st ranked comic.

Quote
and spiderman sitll around and pretyty popular

Marvel's flagship character is still doing okay, not sure 60k sales is good for Spiderman but its still Marvel's best seller.

Quote
x-23- Wolverine still around. And X-23 actully been around for a while. She was made of the Xmen evoliuton televions seris in 2003.  Later in nyx in 2004.  She her own character. Enough to put her in one of the best Xmen movies out there. So she went the path people say you should go. Slowly building up her character and being introduce in different books. That over 13 years. If that stuffing things down your throat, then that the most gentle throat stuffing ever

Never had a problem with X-23 until they decided to call her Wolverine. If "She her own character" why did they need to call her Wolverine, because call me crazy that sounds the EXACT OPPOSITE of her being her own character.

Quote
Let me ask the issue of ms marvel you refering to..have you actully read that iddur or did you just read people talk about it

It may have been an issue of Champions (from a few months ago) featuring Ms Marvel (same writer anyway). It was a youtube review that showed the pages.


First off all the fast crew are spies who know martia artis. Even ludacris pulled off martial arts move..fucing ludacris. Tyrese as well did some stuff. So basicly you got a group of car theifs, fighting a bunch of high trained mercenaries and pulling James Bond level shit with zero explanation

As for hanging off the plane, Do you really have to do it to know it difficult. I think it more difficult then fighting off a few guys

As for your quick eyeballing of what comics lead by females and non white males

https://www.bleedingcool.com/2017/03/14/gendercrunching-january-2017-counting-lead-female-characters-at-marvel-and-dc/


and 41 percent rank books is actully will good, Martial relaunce 105 books..while compete with other companies. Not all of them going to be marvel.  It comics 41 books making it top 50. But among marvel books it does pretty well. Also you talking about ms marvel doing SJW stff base on one issue. One issue you havent read, and you dont know what comic it was. Base on a youtuber

Cyclops got deage, so did the female character of The Xmen. And even cyclops got deage, that stiff replacing him with another white guy.  it not a FEMALE cyclops making Cyclops look bad. Same with nova. Another white guy. That not getting more diverse..that just being youth obsssed. As for making heroes villans. Those event happens LONG before this diverity pushed. It happen in Civil war. Spiderman was DOC ock for a bit.  Like the hydra cap story that temporary. The story will be about changing Cap back

Yes thor selling well, as it doing better then most of the marvel books. Was no 2 under Amazing spiderman. if you want to say divesity causing marvel books, picking there top selling book as an example is a mistake


as for moon boy..did ANYONE give a shit about him. And yes 60K still pretty well for comics. Enough to get you in the top 20.  Once you get past the top 5 number stop dropping to the 70's then the 60's



Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: therock on April 07, 2017, 01:20:58 PM
dont forget current black panther also sold well
Title: Re:"Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: Upper_Krust on April 07, 2017, 03:10:23 PM
First off all the fast crew are spies who know martia artis. Even ludacris pulled off martial arts move..fucing ludacris. Tyrese as well did some stuff. So basicly you got a group of car theifs, fighting a bunch of high trained mercenaries and pulling James Bond level shit with zero explanation.

1. I hardly think one guy (of the team) beating a no-name random thug is the same as one woman beating up multiple trained guys in tac. armour.
2. Diesel & Rodriguez were professional thieves to begin with and have been involved in multiple 'crews' over the course of the series. Walker and the Rock are/were professional law enforcement officers. Ludicris is meant to be the tech guy while Tyrese is the goofy comic relief.

Quote
As for hanging off the plane, Do you really have to do it to know it difficult.


I reckon I could do it.  :P

There's an expression: "Hanging on for dear life" that I think applies in this instance.

Quote
I think it more difficult then fighting off a few guys

A girl beating up multiple guys in tac armour with her fists.

Quote
As for your quick eyeballing of what comics lead by females and non white males

https://www.bleedingcool.com/2017/03/14/gendercrunching-january-2017-counting-lead-female-characters-at-marvel-and-dc/

I counted it by the numbers in the top 300 sales for February. It was tied 21:21 male and female leads for Marvel with 10 team books.

Maybe they gender-swopped a few more in February or cancelled some male leads or started some new female leads or something like that.

Quote
and 41 percent rank books is actully will good, Martial relaunce 105 books..while compete with other companies. Not all of them going to be marvel.  It comics 41 books making it top 50. But among marvel books it does pretty well.

If Marvel are not having any problems then I'm sure they'll keep doing the same thing.

Quote
Also you talking about ms marvel doing SJW stff base on one issue. One issue you havent read, and you dont know what comic it was. Base on a youtuber

Thats correct. I saw the video and they showed the pages with the SJW stuff. Then I said (here) it may be an isolated occurance but I doubt it given the politics of the writer of that comic (and Ms Marvel).

Quote
Cyclops got deage, so did the female character of The Xmen. And even cyclops got deage, that stiff replacing him with another white guy.  it not a FEMALE cyclops making Cyclops look bad. Same with nova. Another white guy. That not getting more diverse..that just being youth obsssed.

I said that was about emasculating men, not diversity.

Quote
As for making heroes villans. Those event happens LONG before this diverity pushed. It happen in Civil war. Spiderman was DOC ock for a bit.  Like the hydra cap story that temporary. The story will be about changing Cap back

The Feminist Agenda (or as you call it Diversity) push started years ago. I don't have a problem with changes (even gender swopping) if its AN ISOLATED CASE. But its not, its virtually line wide.

Quote
Yes thor selling well, as it doing better then most of the marvel books. Was no 2 under Amazing spiderman. if you want to say divesity causing marvel books, picking there top selling book as an example is a mistake

41st ranked comic with sales 40% down from 12 months ago. Apparently that's a great success to you and Marvel.

Quote
as for moon boy..did ANYONE give a shit about him.


Clearly it doesn't matter whether people 'give a shit or not' Marvel will force their feminist agenda wherever they please - as they have done with Hulk, Thor, Iron Man, Wolverine, Hawkeye, Ghost Rider AND Moon Boy.

Quote
And yes 60K still pretty well for comics. Enough to get you in the top 20.  Once you get past the top 5 number stop dropping to the 70's then the 60's

If Marvel are happy with the numbers then just keep doing what they are doing, LOL.  ;D
Title: Re:"Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: g-train on April 07, 2017, 03:32:46 PM
and 65 PURE PROFIT, not counting DVD sales is a good profit for an R rated superhero movie at that time. Most superheo movies werent make that level of cash..let alone R rated movies. it was enough apparent to lanch 2 more sequels, a TV series and maybe got them to do Xmen.

I'll try and explain this to you one last time.

Blade's production cost $45 million + (we agreed) around $22.5 million for marketing = -$67.5 million
Blade grossed $131 million OF THAT the studio only makes about 50%, so they only NETTED +$65.5 million.

$65.5 million MINUS $67.5 million is a LOSS of $2 million.

Yes it still made a profit after DVD and merchandising but it probably didn't make a profit at the box office or if it did it was a tiny one.

Quote
So women kicking butt is to far,

Women (with little to no explanation) knocking out multiple guys in full tac armour with punches to the chest while listening to their MP3 players is a step beyond what I am willing to accept as 'quasi-realistic'.

Quote
but Tom cruise hanging from a plane and outrunning a sand storm not. That seem and odd line to draw.

Given that I (and indeed most people) don't have any understanding of how difficult hanging from a plane is I can accept this as possible.

I don't recall seeing him outrunning a sandstorm; what movie is this from, the recent Mummy or one of the Mission Impossibles? If its from the Mummy then presumably he merely outraced a Magic Sandstorm. Its stretching disbelief but not breaking it.

Quote
In most movie where women kikcing butt they do show it they have martia arts skill.
 

I'd like to think so, but in the Biel case they never made a case for why her punches could put down (presumably trained) men in full body armour and helmets. Again it made sense when Super-strong Blade beat these guys up. It looks stupid when a girl with no powers does it.

Quote
In comics, trainied with another martia artist..guy or girl you become an expert martial artist pretty quickly.

Yes they should call such a style 'Kung-Fool'.

Quote
Well you kind of are saying lets have white guys.

Where have I said anything of the sort?

Quote
If a few diverse books considering ABANDOING white people.
 

Probably closer to a dozen and counting.

Quote
Because so far, MOST of the books still white guys.
 

Not exactly. Marvel have about 52 superhero books per month (not counting Event books). 10 team, 21 male lead and 21 female lead. A quick 'eyeballing' suggests around 13 white male lead books and 15 white female lead books.

Quote
If a handfull of books consider SJW..then it send out a message..making any books that dont have white males as a star just to much of a hassle because people might lose it.

Its not just a handful, its about a dozen books including most of their highest profile books.

Quote
Call Lucy a mary sue if you want...shit made money.

I agree it did. I thought it was a bit crap. She steamrollers every group of men without breaking much of a sweat. At no point is the movie exciting. Visually its quite pretty, but that's about it. She's a complete Mary Sue.

Quote
Most BAD ASS action stars are are mary drues. That what bad ass action stars do. They kick people asses in increasinly unrealistic ways.

Fast & Furious #7, The Rock gets blown out of a building after a tough fight with Statham and ends up in the hospital for half the movie.

Yes he's badass BUT THEY STILL MADE HIM VULNERABLE.

Quote
Also Lucy had an explantion for her power. Which as you said makes that ok. she had super powers, So if that not a good enough explantion dont know what is. She got given a drug that increase giving her powers.  It was limitless with a anime influence. Hell it more of an explantion then a lot of the male heroes people ok with.


Lucy did have an explanation for her powers, I'm not saying stuff (in this case) wasn't explained well enough. I'm saying the action scenes were BORING because Lucy is NEVER in any trouble once she gets the drug. To have good action scenes you need drama - you have to make the audience THINK the hero could lose; even though deep down we suspect/know they will win.

Quote
No one explain how a bunch of car theives suddnely super spys who know kung fu in the fast and furious movies. They just do. People go with it because fuck it, its a movie

The only person demonstrating Martial Arts ability in F&F was Paul Walker a trained (undercover) cop. Diesel is a Brawler (as is the Rock). Michelle has some skillz but they usually put her up against other women (as in the Rowsey fight) or the occasional (no name) random thug.

Quote
Agree hispnaics unrepsented. That why i say DIVERSITY is good. Not just more blacks is good. I wouldnt mind seieng more hispnaics, and more other races. That kind of what marvel was trying to do it.

Well certainly the idea of America Chavez is a great one, unfortunately in execution her solo title is beyond terrible (nice art though).

Quote
Again how are there new comic emasaculting heroes.


1. Making heroes villains
2. By Aging heroes to old men
3. By turning men into boys
4. By turning men into women
5. By making (formerly) straight men gay/bisexual
6. In Thor's case disabling him, stealing his name, stealing his hammer and making him unworthy
7. In Odin's case questioning whether he can 'get it up'
8. In general turning characters into Emo-versions of themselves

...stuff like that.

Quote
How is ms marvel emasculating anyone. She has a name of another woman for crying out loud.


I never said Ms Marvel was specifically emasculating anyone.

Quote
How is moongirl replacing anyone

...because she replaced Moon Boy.  ::)

Quote
As you list of exampels...no one was made into a little boy. Spiderman first started as a kid..and the grown spiderman still around.
The only ones that a replacement that pops to mind

Nova - made into a kid
Cyclops - made into a kid
arguably Hulk; given that Cho is still probably about 18
Iron Man - made into a female kid

Quote
Thor- selling well

Sales down 40% in 12 months, 41st best selling comic is apparently a sign of success at Marvel now.

Quote
Spiderman- From an altnerate universe adn really popular

The 61st ranked comic of Feb 2017.

Quote
Spider Gwen- Alternate universe..

The 81st ranked comic.

Quote
and spiderman sitll around and pretyty popular

Marvel's flagship character is still doing okay, not sure 60k sales is good for Spiderman but its still Marvel's best seller.

Quote
x-23- Wolverine still around. And X-23 actully been around for a while. She was made of the Xmen evoliuton televions seris in 2003.  Later in nyx in 2004.  She her own character. Enough to put her in one of the best Xmen movies out there. So she went the path people say you should go. Slowly building up her character and being introduce in different books. That over 13 years. If that stuffing things down your throat, then that the most gentle throat stuffing ever

Never had a problem with X-23 until they decided to call her Wolverine. If "She her own character" why did they need to call her Wolverine, because call me crazy that sounds the EXACT OPPOSITE of her being her own character.

Quote
Let me ask the issue of ms marvel you refering to..have you actully read that iddur or did you just read people talk about it

It may have been an issue of Champions (from a few months ago) featuring Ms Marvel (same writer anyway). It was a youtube review that showed the pages.

Yeah that's one of the thing's I've talked about before, it seems to some extant what they are doing with women almost shows some "sexism" towards women instead.

Like renaming X-23 "Wolverine".....if she's her own character, why the down grade?

Never though about it too much but your right, Whistler was a bit of a Mary Sue wasn't she?

It could have worked better if it turned out; the original Whistler actually had several back up "Blades" and that he wasn't as isolated an incident as he thought he was.  He was just the best.

Could have also turned into question the real nature of their relationship.

Title: Re:"Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: Upper_Krust on April 08, 2017, 01:46:41 PM
Yeah that's one of the thing's I've talked about before, it seems to some extant what they are doing with women almost shows some "sexism" towards women instead.

Well we know from recent history that Feminists turn on women who want to be feminine or stay-at-home moms and so forth*.

*Kaley Cuoco springs to mind as one public example.

So the Feminist Agenda will always try to give women masculine traits (hence SO many male lead names/titles being taken over) rather than let them be feminine. Where that is not an option they'll go for the smarter than men; more skillful than men or simply morally better than men approach.

Quote
Like renaming X-23 "Wolverine".....if she's her own character, why the down grade?

There's an element of psychology and propaganda about it. When you take a character's name you take away his 'power' and then you can mold it to mean what you want.

Thor was synonymous with strong masculine qualities, so they had to take that away. Note that while there are still many white male 'heroes' at Marvel, its the characters associated with strength and (more specifically) strong physical role model or alpha males* that they have targeted most.

*Thor, Captain America, Wolverine, Hercules and to an extent Hulk and Thing

Iron Man, being a dominant male 'ladies man' also had to go.

Remaining white male heroes are the average body types or weaker (Spidey, Deadpool, Daredevil, Doctor Strange, StarLord). Or even younger 'boys' posing as men (Cho, Nova, Cyclops). But the strong, 'wrestler' physique is gone because it promotes masculinity.

The Punisher is probably the only strong physical role model left at Marvel and even then he's rarely seen as 'super-heroic' or arguably even 'heroic', so they can keep him around because he is morally questionable and morally inferior to the female heroes.

Quote
Never though about it too much but your right, Whistler was a bit of a Mary Sue wasn't she?

Its been a while since I watched Blade Trinity, I can't recall exactly what happens when she is confronted by the vampires. I remember her easily beating up the armoured guards with her fists. I think I remember Dracula easily 'defeats her' in an earlier scene.

As Mary Sue's go, I don't think she is the worst: from movies that's Rey,  in comics probably RiRi.

Quote
It could have worked better if it turned out; the original Whistler actually had several back up "Blades" and that he wasn't as isolated an incident as he thought he was.  He was just the best.

Could have also turned into question the real nature of their relationship.

I think (behind the scenes) the Director/Studio was having trouble with Snipes at the time and hence the "Nightstalkers" were a way to:

1. Reduce Wesley's screen time.
2. Segue into a spin-off if things soured further with Snipes.
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: MTL76 on April 08, 2017, 02:27:34 PM
There's a few things going on at Marvel:

-more female and minority characters
-replacement of iconic character
-SJW-oriented story lines

Number 1 is fine. Numbers 2 and 3 are why fans are upset.
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: NeoGreenLantern on April 08, 2017, 02:50:23 PM
I don't agree with number 2 though. No one has been replaced we just have multiple versions of people using the same name. We got 2 Thors, 2 Spider-men, 2 Captain Americas. The only two characters I can think of that have been replaced are Hulk and Wolverine and they will be back soon.
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: MTL76 on April 08, 2017, 02:54:25 PM
Yeah I should have specified, I was including multiples versions along with replacements. Though it should be noted, Wolverine has been replaced, She-Thor is going by Thir and has replaced Thor on the Avengers, Steve Rogers is a Nazi while Falcon is acting as the heroic Cap, Wasp has been replaced, Iron Man has been replaced...
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: Dlbiininja on April 08, 2017, 03:00:27 PM
Well, Logan hasn't really been replaced when you factor in old man Logan.  Which you would think indicates the old man comes out of Adamantium at some point.  But, then it's just possible his reality/timeline was also wiped out during the big event.
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: Gree on April 22, 2017, 06:03:26 AM
I don't agree with number 2 though. No one has been replaced we just have multiple versions of people using the same name. We got 2 Thors, 2 Spider-men, 2 Captain Americas. The only two characters I can think of that have been replaced are Hulk and Wolverine and they will be back soon.

It's not necessarily a literal replacement. Thor has been reduced to an unworthy pale shadow of his old self, completely disgraced while She-Thor has his name, is occupying his essential title and power tier, takes his spot in teams etc. It's a type of replacement
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: therock on April 22, 2017, 12:34:26 PM
^^^good point.
You dont have to be gone to be replaced.

See always took that as part of the story where he comes back stronger. Like batman getting his back broke. Least that how most these stories go.
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: Kallor on April 22, 2017, 01:07:52 PM
^^^good point.
You dont have to be gone to be replaced.

See always took that as part of the story where he comes back stronger. Like batman getting his back broke. Least that how most these stories go.

Sure, but they're still gone for (in Thor's case) 3 years.  I can see a fan being annoyed by that regardless of politics or things of that nature.  From Knightfall to Knightsend, the entire thing took a year with Bruce still having a large presence in the story as protagonist. 
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: JookDukem on April 22, 2017, 04:25:26 PM
If Games Workshop decided to replace an entire Space Marine legion with females there would be actual physical rioting.

It's dumb. Women doing man shit is stupid and nothing will ever change that fact.

Therock is a faggot.

Women will never equal men when it comes to combat and fiction should keep that in mind when creating stories and settings.
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: Strange on April 22, 2017, 04:27:39 PM
Except in fiction where they can because of fiction.....
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: therock on April 22, 2017, 04:31:44 PM
If Games Workshop decided to replace an entire Space Marine legion with females there would be actual physical rioting.

It's dumb. Women doing man shit is stupid and nothing will ever change that fact.

Therock is a faggot.

Women will never equal men when it comes to combat and fiction should keep that in mind when creating stories and settings.

Dont know much about the Space marine lore but with comcis..

Yes. In a world of talking space ducks. A woman beating a man is a STEP TO FAR!!!

I mean if Damien can kick Big ass dude ass being a 12 year old. Have no issue with some hight trained ninja chick doing so to. Hell a lot of a robins jumps into it pretty young with a few training montages from batman
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: NeoGreenLantern on April 22, 2017, 04:42:59 PM
^^^good point.
You dont have to be gone to be replaced.

See always took that as part of the story where he comes back stronger. Like batman getting his back broke. Least that how most these stories go.

Sure, but they're still gone for (in Thor's case) 3 years.  I can see a fan being annoyed by that regardless of politics or things of that nature.  From Knightfall to Knightsend, the entire thing took a year with Bruce still having a large presence in the story as protagonist.

I would agree with you if there wasn't a comic with Thor in it. But there is so he's not really gone.
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: Kallor on April 22, 2017, 05:36:32 PM
^^^good point.
You dont have to be gone to be replaced.

See always took that as part of the story where he comes back stronger. Like batman getting his back broke. Least that how most these stories go.

Sure, but they're still gone for (in Thor's case) 3 years.  I can see a fan being annoyed by that regardless of politics or things of that nature.  From Knightfall to Knightsend, the entire thing took a year with Bruce still having a large presence in the story as protagonist.

I would agree with you if there wasn't a comic with Thor in it. But there is so he's not really gone.

Then you should agree with me because it was a 5 issue mini-series that came 2 and a half years into it.  Thanks for your support.
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: NeoGreenLantern on April 22, 2017, 05:46:39 PM
Wasn't he showing up something else before Unworthy Thor? I know he's gonna be in a new comic starting soon.

Also its been three years since Secret Wars? Jesus.
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: Kallor on April 22, 2017, 05:58:28 PM
Wasn't he showing up something else before Unworthy Thor? I know he's gonna be in a new comic starting soon.

Also its been three years since Secret Wars? Jesus.

Thor's been gone from his title since 2014, and gone completely since March 2015 beyond a panel in 2016 teasing the Unworthy Thor mini.  The mini didn't come out for another 6 months after that. 
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: MTL76 on April 22, 2017, 06:02:56 PM
Yeah, Thor's essentially been replaced. When She-Thor just slid into his place on the Avengers and the rest of them started referring to her as Thor without missing a beat, or even bothering to look for their friend to help him, that's replacement in my eyes.
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: Mightily Oats on April 22, 2017, 11:03:21 PM
Except in fiction where they can because of fiction.....
^^^^^^^^
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: JookDukem on April 23, 2017, 12:44:21 AM
Except in fiction where they can because of fiction.....

And it's still stupid as fuck when they do it. Imagine that.
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: Red Exodus on April 23, 2017, 10:25:56 AM
Er, there's ALREADY a female only Space Marine chapter : The Sisters of Battle.
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: JookDukem on April 23, 2017, 10:50:09 AM
Er, there's ALREADY a female only Space Marine chapter : The Sisters of Battle.

Oi, not even close man.

That's so incorrect it's not even funny.

They are genehanced females to a degree.

Becoming an actual Astartes is absolutely 100 percent incompatible with the female gender.

Factual Canon.

They get absolutely wrecked by neophyte Space Marines. Which is a performance level slightly above Imperial Guard level beings.
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: JookDukem on April 23, 2017, 10:54:41 AM
The Sisters of Silence are more powerful and even they are little more than sidekicks to beings like the Custodians.

Women in 40k are treated exactly as they should be.

That is to say, absolutely nothing compared to the elite males of the setting.
Title: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: Strange on April 23, 2017, 11:02:26 AM
Except in fiction where they can because of fiction.....

And it's still stupid as fuck when they do it. Imagine that.

You know what else is stupid as fuck? A nerdy little kid getting bit by a radioactive spider and suddenly gaining great power, well above his bullies. We accept it though because it is fiction. I would tell you to imagine that but you apparently can't. 
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: JookDukem on April 23, 2017, 12:06:25 PM
He's a male though so even though it's dumb as fuck it's not nearly as dumb as a chick doing it.

Why would imagining a woman doing stupid shit be something to waste time on? Like that's some kind of virtue. Hahaha fuck outta here with that faggot shit.
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: Strange on April 23, 2017, 12:26:58 PM
Your painfully lame attempts at covering your own idiotic statements gives me an understanding as to why Riv is often your mental jousting partner.
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: JookDukem on April 23, 2017, 12:46:25 PM
No more idiotic than someone who cannot grasp that people have a different opinion than they do.

"Oh noes, you don't like women doing man shit even in fiction, you stupid head."

Continue to pat yourself on the back for all the good it does you.
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: JookDukem on April 23, 2017, 12:51:01 PM
Loving how you take a swipe at RIV while engaging in a cumfest with the guy over Red Sonja, hahaha.

You love women who fite gud guy, we get it.
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: therock on April 23, 2017, 12:56:38 PM
yea as i said before chick beating a guy is a weird line to draw when it come to supension of disbelif given all the crazy shit that happen and street level guys survive.

but oh well.
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: JookDukem on April 23, 2017, 01:05:32 PM
Why is it a weird line to draw from a guy who has never stated anything to the contrary?

Since becoming am adult I have never supported women being placed on equal footing with men in regards to combat.

I never will. I don't like and think it's dumb.

It's why I don't read comics or engage in with any type of fiction that does so frequently.

I am a WarHammer 40k fan. Everything is basically non serious shit for me.

Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: JookDukem on April 23, 2017, 01:10:44 PM
I also don't watch stupid shit like that Lucy film or Atomic Blonde for that same reason. That shit is beyond stupid to me.
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: Kallor on April 23, 2017, 01:16:12 PM
Legit questions here, because I'm not sure what your stance is.  Are you against women with physical powers, or you want no super-powered women at all because they'd beat street level men?  Wonder Woman shouldn't beat the Punisher?  How far do you take this?
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: Snake-eyes on April 23, 2017, 01:21:13 PM
Legit questions here, because I'm not sure what your stance is.  Are you against women with physical powers, or you want no super-powered women at all because they'd beat street level men?  Wonder Woman shouldn't beat the Punisher?  How far do you take this?

He's just trying to get people to react, I thought that was obvious.
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: Strange on April 23, 2017, 01:23:19 PM
Loving how you take a swipe at RIV while engaging in a cumfest with the guy over Red Sonja, hahaha.

You love women who fite gud guy, we get it.

Red Sonja? I think you may be mixing me up with Nick.

But, it is an interesting look into the mind of someone so scared of women.
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: JookDukem on April 23, 2017, 01:27:50 PM
Legit questions here, because I'm not sure what your stance is.  Are you against women with physical powers, or you want no super-powered women at all because they'd beat street level men?  Wonder Woman shouldn't beat the Punisher?  How far do you take this?

I don't read comics anymore and I don't waste time on fiction that places a huge emphasis on women kicking ass in combat.

WarHammer 40k is about as far into the "I am woman hear me roar" I'll accept.
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: JookDukem on April 23, 2017, 01:29:53 PM
I don't think you all realize how little time I devote to anything other than WarHammer 40k. I come here when I don't have shit going on or when work is slow though.

Like, that's all I do if I'm not engaging in my real life/hobbies.

Basketball, drawing, jui-jitsu, going out, etc.
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: Strange on April 23, 2017, 01:32:15 PM
Interesting story, bro. You sound pretty cool irl.
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: JookDukem on April 23, 2017, 01:34:33 PM
Hahaha
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: Red Exodus on April 23, 2017, 01:34:56 PM
WarHammer 40k is about as far into the "I am woman hear me roar" I'll accept.

So something that's completely nonexistent.

Pretty sure the 40k crowd isn't all that welcoming of females to begin with, considering how
95% of all their *important* lore figures and military units are composed of males.

Not gonna lie though, your reasons for being against powerful females is pretty weak.
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: JookDukem on April 23, 2017, 01:50:38 PM
I feel the same way about people who watch and enjoy Atmoic Blonde.

Edit: Not the same way as that is inaccurate, I just don't understand nor see the intrigue.

Women are terrible combatants for the most part.
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: therock on April 23, 2017, 02:27:07 PM
I don't think you all realize how little time I devote to anything other than WarHammer 40k. I come here when I don't have shit going on or when work is slow though.

Like, that's all I do if I'm not engaging in my real life/hobbies.

Basketball, drawing, jui-jitsu, going out, etc.

warhammer is like those mintiures right.
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: JookDukem on April 23, 2017, 04:14:47 PM
Yeah, its a tabletop board game. The lore is what hooks people though.
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: therock on April 23, 2017, 09:17:48 PM
yea was interested back in the day, but seem pricey becuase dont you have to keep buying figures
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: JookDukem on April 23, 2017, 09:31:00 PM
It's incredibly expensive, yes.

We're talking thousands of dollars to even start up a decent army. Most players have spent upwards of 3,000 dollars.

I've been modeling and playing for 6 years. Spent about 1500 total on just minis. Thats not including books, codices and other shit.

You have to LOVE this shit to get into it otherwise it's jist not worth it.

My custom army isn't even close to being finished. I use my friends Iron Warriors army for games.
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: DarthAlani on April 23, 2017, 09:56:41 PM
The Warhammer books are pretty good but their is a shit ton of them.

The Horus Heresy books are going to have over 80 volumes at the minimum.
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: therock on April 23, 2017, 10:57:59 PM
if i ever become rich

I will make a War hammer movie and cast

(http://www.interviewmagazine.com/files/2015/12/09/img-gwendoline-christie_205334692782.jpg)

And have the whole movie her beating the toughest of dudes.  With the end credit saying

"Sponsored by Jooks tears"
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: JookDukem on April 23, 2017, 11:33:34 PM
You'd have an unlimited budget.

Desalinate my tears and the world is supplied with an unlimited amount of water lol.
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: DarthAlani on April 24, 2017, 03:10:43 PM
Fuck that cunt.

Russ punches her head off.
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’
Post by: Hulkster on April 24, 2017, 05:04:34 PM
Legit questions here, because I'm not sure what your stance is.  Are you against women with physical powers, or you want no super-powered women at all because they'd beat street level men?  Wonder Woman shouldn't beat the Punisher?  How far do you take this?

This topic is one that I have thought about at times, that being how the real life physical differences between the genders should be applied to comics.  When applied to powers, how should they differ between the genders?  From the standpoint of strength, I would say it applies to how the strength is added to characters.  Is strength powers a multiplication of one's normal strength?  If Superman's and Supergirl's strengths increases a million times under a yellow sun, then they should have the same difference in strength under the yellow sun as they did before.  But if the yellow enables each of them to lift an additional 1 million tons, then when fully powered, they will practically have identical strength.  So it would be whether their is a multiplication of strength or an addition of strength.  Same for speed.

Esoteric power level should really have no dependence on gender.  Now when it comes to street level/non-superpowered fighting ability, that is a different story.  Shuri should not be able to compete against T'Challa.   
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: 80sBaby on April 24, 2017, 05:20:32 PM
Not sure if i agree on your street level stance (Punisher can surely out bench Shiva, but not beat her h2h despite that), but powers wise, i've brought up the Superman/girl point myself, when posters have used his strength level/feats as hers. There SHOULD be a strength difference between them, given gender and power source similarities.

Hmmm, I don't agree. Human females may naturally be weaker than males (on average) but a fictional alien race doesn't have to follow suit. Like someone else noted, if you can suspend disbelief for heat vision, a woman being stronger than a man shouldn't be a big leap. That's just sexism.
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: 80sBaby on April 24, 2017, 05:26:53 PM
Correct.
Title: Response
Post by: Hulkster on April 24, 2017, 05:28:42 PM
Well, I used T'Challa and Shuri as examples because they should be similarly trained and thus similarly skilled.  So the difference should be the difference in typical gender strength and speed.  The problem with the BP/Wakanda example is that the Dora Milaje tend to show greater fighting skill than the Hatut Zeraze.  Why are the Dora Milaje the best?

Punisher is not an elite martial artist like Shiva, but should Shiva be competitive against Batman?
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: NeoGreenLantern on April 24, 2017, 05:30:07 PM
Not sure if i agree on your street level stance (Punisher can surely out bench Shiva, but not beat her h2h despite that), but powers wise, i've brought up the Superman/girl point myself, when posters have used his strength level/feats as hers. There SHOULD be a strength difference between them, given gender and power source similarities.
I disagree. The power doesn't stem from their actual muscles but of stored energy in their cells. Its not like men and women's cells behave differently. Also, they aren't human. We see tons of different species where the males are not the physically dominate gender.
Title: Response
Post by: Hulkster on April 24, 2017, 05:32:31 PM
Not sure if i agree on your street level stance (Punisher can surely out bench Shiva, but not beat her h2h despite that), but powers wise, i've brought up the Superman/girl point myself, when posters have used his strength level/feats as hers. There SHOULD be a strength difference between them, given gender and power source similarities.

Hmmm, I don't agree. Human females may naturally be weaker than males (on average) but a fictional alien race doesn't have to follow suit. Like someone else noted, if you can suspend disbelief for heat vision, a woman being stronger than a man shouldn't be a big leap. That's just sexism.

That's true with regard to aliens.  But on comicbook Earths, the gender differences between the non-powered, non-skilled tends to be comparable to real life.  So should this not also be reflected among the metas and skilled elites of Earth?
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: NeoGreenLantern on April 24, 2017, 05:39:21 PM
I would say if we are talking about "natural" abilities even if they are enhanced. Like  if a male and female both hand the SS serum than the male should be stronger.

But look at like Silk and Spider-Man. I'd be cool if they were equal or even if Silk was stronger since their are female spiders that physically dominate their male counterparts.

Or in the case of two people with physical powers but different power sources like Cage and and She-Hulk. There is not reason for She-Hulk not be stronger.
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: shadowknight on April 24, 2017, 05:44:50 PM
Why is it a weird line to draw from a guy who has never stated anything to the contrary?

Since becoming am adult I have never supported women being placed on equal footing with men in regards to combat.

I never will. I don't like and think it's dumb.

It's why I don't read comics or engage in with any type of fiction that does so frequently.

I am a WarHammer 40k fan. Everything is basically non serious shit for me.

The problem is women in combat don't work for several   reasons.

1. While women can command subs, ships or fly airplanes as well as a men. Those simply require  training, skill, education and intelligence,  any elite combat unit require STR.

2. This is were pc run amok doesn't work. The STR and endurance difference difference can destroy unit effictiveness, so while a women can shoot as well as a men for the most part they can't handle physical stress nor punishment as well. So putting them is Tank, Infantry  or Artillery unit is a determent to your forces since those require STR and endurance women don't have.

3. As for the thread  people don't have a problem with diversity. People have a problem with turning a straight character gay, getting rid of a  white male and putting a female, Hispanic, black or whatever thew minority of the month is to replace them. It doesn't help matters when you demonize the white male, kill them or cripple them to make room for their replacement. Add insult to injury by  having every claim the replacement is better, smarter, tougher or more powerful than the original.

4. I'm saying this as a Black man, I have no problem with Black Panther, Blue Marvel, Quantum, Northstar or Luke Cage. Nevertheless I can't stand Miles Morales Spiderman, Asian Hulk, the new Ghost Rider, Black Cap American, Female Quasar, female Wolverine or the Female Thor. Why simply put they represent minority  tokens and PC run amok that marvel is trying to shove down my throat.
Title: Re: Response
Post by: 80sBaby on April 24, 2017, 05:58:11 PM
Not sure if i agree on your street level stance (Punisher can surely out bench Shiva, but not beat her h2h despite that), but powers wise, i've brought up the Superman/girl point myself, when posters have used his strength level/feats as hers. There SHOULD be a strength difference between them, given gender and power source similarities.

Hmmm, I don't agree. Human females may naturally be weaker than males (on average) but a fictional alien race doesn't have to follow suit. Like someone else noted, if you can suspend disbelief for heat vision, a woman being stronger than a man shouldn't be a big leap. That's just sexism.

That's true with regard to aliens.  But on comicbook Earths, the gender differences between the non-powered, non-skilled tends to be comparable to real life.  So should this not also be reflected among the metas and skilled elites of Earth?

Neo already covered this but it does depend on the source of said powers. His She-Hulk/Luke Cage is a good example.
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: NeoGreenLantern on April 24, 2017, 06:08:12 PM
Quote
Punisher is not an elite martial artist like Shiva, but should Shiva be competitive against Batman?
Sans batsuit & attendant gimmicks Shiva would eat Batman for lunch.

Quote
I disagree. The power doesn't stem from their actual muscles but of stored energy in their cells. Its not like men and women's cells behave differently. Also, they aren't human. We see tons of different species where the males are not the physically dominate gender.
This goes towards aforementioned power source. Does it multiply base level strength male 225lb bench/female 100lb bench x 1,000,000), or add a set amount of strength (male/female both get a 1,000,000lb increase in which case the starting 125lb dufference is moot) regardless?

As for Kryptonian women being stronger than men? Until thats canon...its not.

You can say the reverse about Kryptonian men being stronger than the women.

The only thing we know is that Supergirl at times has been shown as being in the same general ballpark as Superman in strength.
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’
Post by: therock on April 24, 2017, 06:18:23 PM
Legit questions here, because I'm not sure what your stance is.  Are you against women with physical powers, or you want no super-powered women at all because they'd beat street level men?  Wonder Woman shouldn't beat the Punisher?  How far do you take this?

This topic is one that I have thought about at times, that being how the real life physical differences between the genders should be applied to comics.  When applied to powers, how should they differ between the genders?  From the standpoint of strength, I would say it applies to how the strength is added to characters.  Is strength powers a multiplication of one's normal strength?  If Superman's and Supergirl's strengths increases a million times under a yellow sun, then they should have the same difference in strength under the yellow sun as they did before.  But if the yellow enables each of them to lift an additional 1 million tons, then when fully powered, they will practically have identical strength.  So it would be whether their is a multiplication of strength or an addition of strength.  Same for speed.

Esoteric power level should really have no dependence on gender.  Now when it comes to street level/non-superpowered fighting ability, that is a different story.  Shuri should not be able to compete against T'Challa.

I dont know it comics, certain skills practicly super powers

Hell isnt the legion the Karati kid suspose to be Human.  Let he Judo punching Superman level guys
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: Mightily Oats on April 24, 2017, 07:38:51 PM
At least riv and Jook can agree on something

They're both sexist
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: therock on April 24, 2017, 07:46:49 PM
Val has a penis, so its okay.

was that ever confirm. I got to check deviantart.
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: 80sBaby on April 24, 2017, 08:08:33 PM
At least riv and Jook can agree on something

They're both sexist

LOL I was thinking the same. I appreciate the honesty about it, though.
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: Hulkster on April 24, 2017, 08:15:22 PM
I would say if we are talking about "natural" abilities even if they are enhanced. Like  if a male and female both hand the SS serum than the male should be stronger.

But look at like Silk and Spider-Man. I'd be cool if they were equal or even if Silk was stronger since their are female spiders that physically dominate their male counterparts.

Or in the case of two people with physical powers but different power sources like Cage and and She-Hulk. There is not reason for She-Hulk not be stronger.

I agree with this. 
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: JookDukem on April 24, 2017, 08:58:29 PM
When it comes to fiction and real life combat, if thinking men are and should be portrayed as superior to women in combat makes me sexist I'll go ahead and die on that hill.

I'll take it.
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: therock on April 24, 2017, 09:12:34 PM
When it comes to fiction and real life combat, if thinking men are and should be portrayed as superior to women in combat makes me sexist I'll go ahead and die on that hill.

I'll take it.

You already died on that hill a couple of post ago

Where talking to a ghost at this point.
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: -K-M- on April 24, 2017, 09:16:26 PM
(http://i1074.photobucket.com/albums/w403/Philosophia/P00092_zpszatvle4r.jpg~original)
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: Mightily Oats on April 24, 2017, 10:21:18 PM
When it comes to fiction and real life combat, if thinking men are and should be portrayed as superior to women in combat makes me sexist I'll go ahead and die on that hill.

I'll take it.
Why you insist on conflating fiction and real life, in a vain attempt to justify your very really problem, I don't know.

Gotta be nice to be rubbing shoulders with a war hero, though, amirite?
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: g-train on April 24, 2017, 10:27:20 PM
(http://i1074.photobucket.com/albums/w403/Philosophia/P00092_zpszatvle4r.jpg~original)

I get the concept BG's going for here but this does seem to be an unresistant opponent who might even be shaking with fear.

Kind of not cool to physically assault an assailant whose no longer resisting arrest basically.

Wouldn't actually be cool if it was a guy really.

Kind of like a cop taking a baton to a criminal whose put up their hands and are laying on the ground.
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: JookDukem on April 24, 2017, 11:57:56 PM
When it comes to fiction and real life combat, if thinking men are and should be portrayed as superior to women in combat makes me sexist I'll go ahead and die on that hill.

I'll take it.
Why you insist on conflating fiction and real life, in a vain attempt to justify your very really problem, I don't know.

Gotta be nice to be rubbing shoulders with a war hero, though, amirite?

Awww, look at you, trying all hard with personal jabs to look cool. Haha. You're a cupcake.

The only problem I have is with beta males who can't accept that some people have different opinions than they do.

You enjoy fiction where women are amazing in combat. I don't.

Your panties are in a bunch because you're a fragile and poor excuse for an adult male.

That Wolverine vs Raiden thread is something you'll never live down and your garbage attempts at making any type of point are just as trash now as they were then.

It's definitely nice having a solid friendship with people who have an actual idea on what real life combat does to people and the sheer ability one needs to compete in that field.

I love how that makes you mad. It's transparent your lack of anything even remotely resembling physical capability bothers the fuck out of you.
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: JookDukem on April 25, 2017, 12:04:55 AM
At least riv and Jook can agree on something

They're both sexist

LOL I was thinking the same. I appreciate the honesty about it, though.
Its what women want, though.

Actually, they want the best of both worlds; equality in all things, except when playing the weaker sex card better serves them.

Most arent honest about it.

Fuck. We're on the same side. That's a solid and true point.

Suck a dick though, still.
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: Mightily Oats on April 25, 2017, 12:06:36 AM
When it comes to fiction and real life combat, if thinking men are and should be portrayed as superior to women in combat makes me sexist I'll go ahead and die on that hill.

I'll take it.
Why you insist on conflating fiction and real life, in a vain attempt to justify your very really problem, I don't know.

Gotta be nice to be rubbing shoulders with a war hero, though, amirite?

Awww, look at you, trying all hard with personal jabs to look cool. Haha. You're a cupcake.

The only problem I have is with beta males who can't accept that some people have different opinions than they do.

You enjoy fiction where women are amazing in combat. I don't.

Your panties are in a bunch because you're a fragile and poor excuse for an adult male.

That Wolverine vs Raiden thread is something you'll never live down and your garbage attempts at making any type of point are just as trash now as they were then.

It's definitely nice having a solid friendship with people who have an actual idea on what real life combat does to people and the sheer ability one needs to compete in that field.

I love how that makes you mad. It's transparent your lack of anything even remotely resembling physical capability bothers the fuck out of you.
Hahaha

*makes valid point about you being sexist, gets a rant about nothing*

Alright cool man, you keep rotoscoping or whatever it is you do.
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: JookDukem on April 25, 2017, 12:09:06 AM
You get casually dealt with every single time. I don't even know why you try making any type of point when you post because it always fails.

You're bad at this.
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: therock on April 25, 2017, 12:12:10 AM
the only Alpha male response to the question

should Lady Shiva, or similar martial artist be able to beat a group of strong men is,



Who gives a shit.

That generaly my Answer. Then again i am alpha a fuck
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: Strawman Abridged on April 25, 2017, 12:35:04 AM
The majority of you would get your beta asses tossed through a Warhammer tabletop game by Aunt May in a real fight before you can say, "roll for initiative."

As for me, I can guarantee with 100% certainty that I could snap that chick's back from the Hunger Games over my knee. What's her name, Rue.
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: therock on April 25, 2017, 12:46:50 AM
The majority of you would get your beta asses tossed through a Warhammer tabletop game by Aunt May in a real fight before you can say, "roll for initiative."

As for me, I can guarantee with 100% certainty that I could snap that chick's back from the Hunger Games over my knee. What's her name, Rue.

That line the ultimate pussy repellent


By the laws of nature and science,  Warhammer and pussy cant occupy the same space. To do so would create a singularity that would rip a hole into the space time continium

To be even 30 feet near a warhammer tabletop makes a girl tempoary barren and incappable of of having an climax for 2 months
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: AP on April 25, 2017, 07:57:49 AM
If we have achieved nothing else in this thread, at least we've found a way to have Jook and RIV get along.
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: Master on April 25, 2017, 09:37:36 PM
The majority of you would get your beta asses tossed through a Warhammer tabletop game by Aunt May in a real fight before you can say, "roll for initiative."

As for me, I can guarantee with 100% certainty that I could snap that chick's back from the Hunger Games over my knee. What's her name, Rue.

LOL
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: Jabroniville on May 06, 2017, 07:07:17 AM
So doing nearly across the board replacements of the brands most popular characters for no other reason than to cater to tumblrinas that obsess about gender/race/identity politics did not work out?

For years people have been telling Marvel these groups do not read comics in any great numbers. Certainly not to the point where you burn so much of prior times to the ground for them. SJWs leapfrog from one subject (gaming) to another (comedy) to another (comics) to another (fitness.) It's about imposing their will and preferences on others. Not an individual interest in what they are complaining about.

I mean Christ, has there been much difference in the market focus for She-Thor, Angela, Carol Danvers, and Mockingbird? They or their titles have been presented as political, angry at the world, men are stupid/evil/oppressive, don't tread on my vagina types. No wonder Marvel's supposedly #1 female cannot keep a book and needs to constantly be rebooted to a new #1.

The smartest thing almost any target can do is ignore or shun these people right away. Then you can make changes organically down the road after they have left to bother some other unfortunate group. As opposed to having to do them under the gun of a movement that represents only itself and is largely disagreed with otherwise.

And yeah, stop overdoing it with then "This character is the best/strongest/smartest/most powerful/etc." Give readers reasons to like them as people. Not just preach about how awesome they are and drop hints that anyone not onboard is close minded or bigoted.
Yeah, pretty much this. SJWs have basically taken a "leap from one fandom to another, preaching at everyone" thing. The backlash against this has been tremendous, especially as more and more people have seen these people pop up in every possible fandom. It's become very clear that the SJWs were basically just like the Doom Patrol's fanbase- small, but loud.

I'm late to the party here, but my whole take on the thing is that Marvel's SJW push is a MASSIVE over-correction of a "problematic" thing, and not only created a backlash, but an active hatred of the company. Especially when they spent time making fun of the fans for being mad, then release this initial press-release, blaming fans for "not liking diversity". Funnily enough, SJWs were ALSO furious with this press-release, because it basically amounts to "we're giving up on diversity/diversity doesn't work". So this idiot has just pissed off EVERYONE on all sides.

So what's going to happen now is that Marvel will bring the "proper" heroes back in some cases, thus pissing off SJWs. In other cases, they'll redouble their efforts and just fuck things up more.

The funny thing is, some of the new characters were fine- I don't know anybody who hates Kamala Khan, short of the hardcore MRA/Diversity SUCKS! crowd, which is as loud and as annoying as any SJW. Kamala was fine, and wasn't even a replacement character- she was taking the legacy of a hero who'd taken a new name (and her own legacy). But suddenly swapping out Cap, Thor & Iron Man, while pushing Blaxican Spidey and Asian Hulk at the same time? It was brutally obvious, clumsy pandering.

Never mind that comic book fans have always been famous for hating change. You replace all of these heroes with White Anglo-Saxon Protestants and people would still bitch, because of CHANGE. People bitched about every single thing changed from the source material in every Marvel movie, just because. So immediately accusing them of racism or hating diversity for the backlash was ludicrous.

And I get WHY the decisions were made. Marvel has a thousand decent minority and/or female characters... but because they were all created after like 1970, no writer has any nostalgia for them, and so every new guy taking over a book exiles all the minority characters, includes the "classic" guys, and then adds a brand NEW minority or two. This means that no brown people end up with an extended push- you just get stuff like the Avengers with Monica Rambeau (Roger Stern's pet character), before she's replaced as the Token Negro with Rage. Who is himself replaced by another guy. So instead, Marvel decided to make them all legacy characters so that the fans suddenly HAVE to pay attention to them... but of course did five fucking characters all at once, because they were clumsy and stupid about it. I could have dealt with one or two... but ALL of them? Never mind that this further dilutes the Marvel menagerie of characters (a continuing problem; the Hulk has been devalued so much by all the different versions & spin-offs that the original guy has no meaning anymore- most of Marvel's heroes are heading that way, too).
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: AP on May 06, 2017, 07:29:13 AM
I got the feeling a lot of the SJWs who complain about this stuff don't even read comics or anything anyway.  If they did, they would understand the fandoms' complaints.
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: Strawman Abridged on May 06, 2017, 02:48:57 PM
I doubt they'd understand even then. SJW's have willingly encased themselves in their own personal bubbles of blissful ignorance. Easier to just rage and disregard than engage in genuine conversation, reflect, apply basic critical thought, etc. Time is too precious a commodity, and personal pride priceless beyond measure. But then it's really just yet another symptom of the underlying chronic impatience and insecurity that generally permeates all walks of society nowadays. And of course, technology and social media have a heavy hand in that.


Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: shadowknight on February 15, 2018, 01:43:48 PM
There's 2 major problem with marvel diversity bandwagon.

1. It was diversity for diversity sake. No one complained  about Ms Marvel KK b/c it felt organic and for the most part at least in the beginning had a decent story line. But what does the female Thor, Ironheart, Gay Iceman and Asian Hulk have together? They replace a beloved and respected character with someone who bears the same name and powers, but none of their charm and using a hamfisted approach to remove the original character that anyone outside of Ray Charles would know the original character would return. Lets be honest in what way does iceman who's had numerous girlfriends including IIRC getting 1 of them pregnant improve the character. Lets not forget turning Two-gun kid or Rawhide kid gay Marvel had a 4 issue mini-series to celebrate the event which sold buck-ass and ruined the character from ever making a comeback.

2. The second problem they have had with few exceptions crappy writers. I've tried to read Ms America and to be kind it pure unadulterated crap I wouldn't use to wipe my A"S. As for Aaron Thor  everytime I read it, it reminds me of my visits to the dentist in my teens. Character assassination seems to be his forte, with a major in revisionist history. Did anyone ever tell him to show 2 sides of an argument without demonizing your opponent. But no Odin is depicted as a coward, bully, blowhard and a womanizing All Father and those are his good points. If Aaron did a cursory check on Thor history he would know that Jane Foster was given Godlike powers by Odin in the late 1960's or early 1970's to see her suitability as a mate for Thor, and she proved unworthy, cowardly and unable to handle such power to the point Thor had to come in and save her. Even-though she failed in her test, Odin like her and treated her with respect and kindness and she reciprocated the sentiment. I'm not even get into the crap-fest of Asian Hulk or gay Iceman suffice to say I'm glad no one bought the comics and Marvel is putting both comics out of it's misery. Finally Ms America where to begin it has writer more interested in promoting her view of the world then writing a nuance or for that matter an interesting comic. Someone told be she's a writer of some note in the lesbian Latina world, but for the life me you'd never know it by reading her prose in Ms America. People aren't interested in being preached to whether it's in Mockingbird or Ms America it doesn't help that the art sucked big Moose co*ck or the villain were caricature that would be out of place even in 1940's Hollywood movies.
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: therock on February 15, 2018, 10:36:36 PM
I dont know remember tons of people bitching about ms marvel. She included in most of these articles
Title: Re: "Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"
Post by: therock on February 15, 2018, 10:50:29 PM
Think the issue is...MOST new character fail.  White or black. Hard to introduce a new character.  Even when they replace a old one.  Since a write who like the old ones will replace the news ones sooner or later. Barry and Hal for instance back in the picutre..becuase those writers like the silver age. Even though find barry boring as fuck in the comis. That why in a TV,cartoons, and movie..he kind of acts like Wally..because that the more fun character. So it has to be somehwhat unorganic if your introducing people in a world that been around for decades. Sometime they shit the bed

Look at all the shitty...bloodline character we had to get to get one Hitman. So you got a few ms Americas. But the new spiderman got some staying power.. And the others that dont do as well, well you can play around in the future. I mean Jon Stewart at first was just an angry black guy saying shit like this

(https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/sites/default/files/custom/Graeme/GreenLanternStewart/GLJS1.jpg)

But later now you got a good character to play with. An extra toy in the toy box

It just worst when you holding an entire race on the character back.  Since if that shits the bed no one goes..hey maybe that story..it no one wants diversity or your forcing it down our throats