Anderson Silva vs Jones or Georges St. Pierre?

[Bandido]

Which would you rather see? Which would make more money? Which is Dana more likely to green-light?

[BigJayStudd]

Rather see Silva vs. Jones. Silva vs. St. Pierre would make more $$$. Dana would green light either in a heart beat. He wants those fights. Pure $$$$

[safado]

St Pierre is a popular fighter who brings in Canadians, a huge market for the UFC. The UFC is very good at bringing along icons in markets where they know that one or two fighters can fuel a lot of national pride. Rory MacDonald is being groomed in case St Pierre hurts his knee in practice to bring in the same nutjobs who go to hockey games and will brawl with the opposing teams fan base outside the arena

Anderson Silva is exactly that icon for the UFC in Brazil - If it weren't him the UFC would try to polish up someone else to be as marketable and a lot of Brazilian fighters get true luxury treatment media wise for that reason

America is an easy market for icons and Jon Jones, while being enormously talented and having what I consider to be an admirable compilation of abilities and attributes, is a very unpopular champion.

There was the fiasco of not fighting Chael Sonnen on short notice and scuttling an event (though he had his reasons it pissed a lot of people off)

He is not really a charismatic person or fighter and he has an ugly fighting style. He's over-sized for the division so it's hard to root for him as an underdog

I think if Anderson  met him at a catch weight and was able to beat him - it would cement Anderson Silva as the Muhamad Ali of MMA (at present) and Anderson would have no one left to fight - he'd retire and would become a Brazilian national icon while someone more popualr would take Jones place

If Anderson fought St Pierre - it would be essentially taking two very popular fighters who are kings in two different markets and it would be sad to see either one lose. St Pierre comes across as likeable and no one wants to see him getting stomped and even less so Silva

So Silva-Jones would be bigger than the Superbowl IMO financially and would have little downside

Silva wins - The UFC prints more action figures

Silva loses - he was fighting up a weight class - what Brazilian will step up and take it to Jones (personally I think Glover will do it if Anderson doesn't)

[Bandido]

Which do the rest of you guys think would be a better actual fight?

[safado]

TBH - I actually think Silva has a chance of using the Plumm if Jones tried to get a double or single, as he is a Greco guy. No one but Machida has really taken it to him standing up and Silva would do it masterfully. The suspense of seeing what would happen would be great

St Pierre is cautious and tactical as is Silva - Silva likes to counterpunch and is left-handed

St Pierre likes to counter his opponents strengths with something of his own. Every time Silva has fought another cautious counter fighter it has resulted in a boring fight (Demian Maia)

If St Pierre took it to him and got a takedown, his BJJ is not good enough to really dominate fellow black belt Silva on the ground. It would be boring until the stand up and then I think St Pierre would go after the takedown again and either the same process or eventually face Silva's beiggest weapon - the knee from the Plumm

[Bandido]

My interest was perked after two separate documentaries on both fighters... I'd be voting for the Canadian.

[Beta Male Bill]

jj

[Dutchman: Fuerte Como El Toro]

Rather see Silva vs. Jones. Silva vs. St. Pierre would make more $$$. Dana would green light either in a heart beat. He wants those fights. Pure $$$$

This.

[Bandido]

I honestly think Jones has the better shot to take Silva down, but I'd be on Silva's side in that fight.

[safado]

I'm not sure - Jones's advantage has always been Greco in my opinion. 90% of th guys who come from wrestling are free style fighters and come in with doubles and singles which can be defended well by someone who really just learns the proper defenses

Greco is a lot harder to defend if the Greco guy knows how to punch his way into the clinch

Jones doesn't seem to take a lot of double's - I sually see him (could be wrong) using that insane reach advantage of his and stuffing takedowns with his clinch to take the top position and the hellbows.

He doesn't seem to have a super explosive double leg that just overpowers people. Double legs that aren't timed perfectly or set up with great strikes are risky

It's always hard to tell with Anderson Silva - since he has shown some weakness to those explosive double legs (Chael Sonnen fight)
but I can't see Jones and his gangly, goofy, stand up style - which relies on his being very bold and having that incredible reach - to get away with things he really shouldnt - working against a master counterstriker like Anderson Silva

     On paper Jone's should win but the only time anyone really took it to him standing up was Machida - who confused him standup wise with his elusive use of distance (which is a strengh of Jones too) but Machida lost that fight in the clinch to a guillotine, which I don't see happening to Anderson Silva who might actually be able to give Jones a hard time in the clinch with his Thai knee's

I think it would come down to that - Silva would pick Jone's apart standing up and if he could control the Greco clinch and defend the takedown using the Plumm and sprawl - I could actually see him taking it

If he lands on the bottom he doesn't have the BJJ to defend so, it would be incredible

[Bandido]

http://www.mmavideofights.net/1142/georges-stpierre-josh-koscheck-video-ufc-124/
I like the way St. Pierre boxes here; his uses his jab to search for and create openings on his opponent. He's also very very explosive, note the Superman punch using the left hand... His boxing is among the finest in the UFC.  If I were him, I'd use more feints, especially with how he administers his jab, but even so, truly outstanding work.

[safado]

Agreed. In terms of boxing in MMA I think him, Nick Diaz, BJ Penn to a lesser degree, and Alessio Sakara (9-0 IBF pro) are truly outstanding boxers - Tre Telligman was good when he fought.

I like how Diaz jabs and attacks the head to open up body punching. Rare strategy for MMA. Penn searches with the jab as well, and boxes well

I know I'm missing a few but those come to mind

[Bandido]

Agreed. In terms of boxing in MMA I think him, Nick Diaz, BJ Penn to a lesser degree, and Alessio Sakara (9-0 IBF pro) are truly outstanding boxers - Tre Telligman was good when he fought.

I like how Diaz jabs and attacks the head to open up body punching. Rare strategy for MMA. Penn searches with the jab as well, and boxes well

I know I'm missing a few but those come to mind

I've heard Diaz is outstanding for MMA in the boxing game, never seen him though. I know people praise Anderson for his boxing work, but his boxing doesn't impress me. Without his other tools, Silva wouldn't be the top dog. I realize MMA is a game of multiple talents, but his boxing is really nothing special.

[safado]

No it isn't

I think Anderson is exceptionally focused as a fighter mentally - IMO the most important trait possible

He is one of the most precise and calculating fighters around who will pull off brilliant strategies with complete discipline. His Muay Thai is not exceptional as "pure" Muay Thai

What he really does is provoke opponents into creating situations where he can counter them - he is useless without counter fighting, and  force their hand by using an offense that is razor-like sharp and forcea response which is countered. His biggest weapon is partially his high hips and knees - he can hit you from a distance and when you close in on him he uses the knee the way a boxer would use an uppercut

Boxing for MMA is a lot different. The footwork changes a lot and the defense changes as well. In MMA you really need to use that jab to find range, and footwork has to be more planted - which in regular boxing would make you plodding. I've found that things like cutting around an opponent and range are huge advantages, while certain styles that do well in amateur boxing don't always do as well in MMA. Some Cuban boxers in and out footwork comes to mind

Their's alot on that subject though and I personally feel that Boxing has so much technique that can be utilized in MMA and isn't (a trend in a lot of martial arts as MMA grows)

I know of a couple of talented boxers around here who are excellent competitors but aren't killing it on the world stage (though whether that it lack of opportunity or resroucres I don't know - making money in Brazil as a boxer is next to impossible) and they kncok Anderson down a couple of times per round

I do know that he sought out Freddie Roach and really wants to improve - so good on him.

His mental ability to be a surgeon when it coms to counterfighting though, and ring generalship is really what makes his game what it is - plus his mental game and willingess to learn new things

He went from zero ground game to becoming an outright good black belt - which was IMO the definingm oment in his career

Diaz BTW doea a lot of waht you metnion  he keeps is left hand out in front and probes for openings and instigates with the jab and follows up with flurries. Everyone in MMA worries about head punches so Diaz sticks the jab in his oppoents face, throws the right. gets the oppoent to cover up and softens the body. Penn is similar in style - keeping the elad hand out and being aggressive with his right and his excellent reach.

I'll try to come up with more examples later.

[TNC]

Dana should make a rule that a champion cannot challenge another champion in a different weight class unless they get at least 5 consecutive title defenses first

[safado]

Dana should make a rule that a champion cannot challenge another champion in a different weight class unless they get at least 5 consecutive title defenses first

That would almost make it an organized sport and not the bastardized version of martial arts spectacle in favor of sport that its become. My long-standing fear of MMA becoming a non-meritocracy is coming true.

It's closer to the WWE than an Olympic sport - where you can qualify on hard work and guts.

It is a beautiful thought though

[TNC]

That would almost make it an organized sport and not the bastardized version of martial arts spectacle in favor of sport that its become. My long-standing fear of MMA becoming a non-meritocracy is coming true.

It's closer to the WWE than an Olympic sport - where you can qualify on hard work and guts.

It is a beautiful thought though

Well... it IS prize fighting. Boxing has been like that (and much worse) for decades. Dana and the UFC actually have done better than anyone before them as far as creating structure to whom gets what fights.


That said, demand creates supply. The reason why people want to see Anderson fight both of these other champions is that nobody seems capable of beating him in his division and they are both dominant champions of their own so it should prove to be interesting.

Personally, I like the idea of a champion remaining dominant in his own division and don't really care too much to see them jump around ever since BJ Penn. But I think most people, whether they care to admit it or not, see GSP vs. Anderson as being a wash for Silva so they thing Jones would be a more intriging fight, but GSP has been dominant longer than Jones so I think it makes more sense for GSP and Silva to fight first.


Also, I remember when Lyoto was champion and he made the statement that if he could defend his title 5 times, he wanted to fight Brock @ HW. I always loved that Lyoto "knew" that 5 is the standard that a champion has to meet before he jumps around, at least since Matt Hughes

[Bandido]

No it isn't

I think Anderson is exceptionally focused as a fighter mentally - IMO the most important trait possible

He is one of the most precise and calculating fighters around who will pull off brilliant strategies with complete discipline. His Muay Thai is not exceptional as "pure" Muay Thai

What he really does is provoke opponents into creating situations where he can counter them - he is useless without counter fighting, and  force their hand by using an offense that is razor-like sharp and forcea response which is countered. His biggest weapon is partially his high hips and knees - he can hit you from a distance and when you close in on him he uses the knee the way a boxer would use an uppercut

Boxing for MMA is a lot different. The footwork changes a lot and the defense changes as well. In MMA you really need to use that jab to find range, and footwork has to be more planted - which in regular boxing would make you plodding. I've found that things like cutting around an opponent and range are huge advantages, while certain styles that do well in amateur boxing don't always do as well in MMA.

Amateur boxing in America scored like a joke. That is why USA is being forced to move back to the 10pt system that other countries use, otherwise it's a touch game and not a fight.

[safado]

How does the 10 pt system work - I've seen a lot of amateur boxers get creamed as pro's and vice versa. I presumed the scoring system made it easier for some athletes to get away with this sort of thing and then never learn to get hit and trade etc...

I was (and will) give a little more detailed response to TNC - who is right but I do have some points to make

Essentially - the UFC is prizefighting and you have to go with what works. However, I can't stomach fighters who are qualified but nor marketable not getting fights  or even shut out.

In wrestling there are qualifier's, if you win - you're in period. You can dsilike the ruling and judging (and in BJJ it's hoorendously skewed against whoever the ref or judge doesn't like) but still - if you win wualifiers and you're not as marketable, you still qualify. That is, to me, a sport.

Being a solid fighter who conssitently beats opponents in smaller to mid-size venues but not getting a single fight in the monopoly of the sport because you don't have the right look, you're not marketable, or simply don't like to trash talk and you act like a professional: that grates

[Bandido]

How does the 10 pt system work - I've seen a lot of amateur boxers get creamed as pro's and vice versa. I presumed the scoring system made it easier for some athletes to get away with this sort of thing and then never learn to get hit and trade etc...

I was (and will) give a little more detailed response to TNC - who is right but I do have some points to make

Essentially - the UFC is prizefighting and you have to go with what works. However, I can't stomach fighters who are qualified but nor marketable not getting fights  or even shut out.

In wrestling there are qualifier's, if you win - you're in period. You can dsilike the ruling and judging (and in BJJ it's hoorendously skewed against whoever the ref or judge doesn't like) but still - if you win wualifiers and you're not as marketable, you still qualify. That is, to me, a sport.

Being a solid fighter who conssitently beats opponents in smaller to mid-size venues but not getting a single fight in the monopoly of the sport because you don't have the right look, you're not marketable, or simply don't like to trash talk and you act like a professional: that grates

The 10pt scoring system looks at the match as a fight more than a scoring game. Thus, aggressiveness, good defense and control of the ring or "Ring Generalship", count about as much number of punches landed. The winner of every round is assigned 10 pts and the loser is assigned 9, 8 if he is knocked down and 7 if he is knocked down twice. I both fighters score a knockdown in the same round, then it will revert back to a 10-9 ruling.

Basically, it looks at who is more effective at damaging and controlling the other fighter rather than the US scoring of whom landed the most shots and ran away.

[safado]

Who was the dominant fighter versus playing tag - I like it

I wish BJJ had this - too many people score one knee on belly and run for 9 minutes or use positions that would get you killed in a fight. It is offically sport BJJ versus old school now

[Bandido]

Who was the dominant fighter versus playing tag - I like it

I wish BJJ had this - too many people score one knee on belly and run for 9 minutes or use positions that would get you killed in a fight. It is offically sport BJJ versus old school now

Especially because amateurs fight shorter rounds, or not as many depending on their level. Often times, they get away with slapping or touching and outrunning the clock.

[..:skeletor:..]

GSP doesn't want to fight Silva, deep down. He knows Anderson would beat the shit out of him.

I also think it's suspect he doesn't fight outside of Canada. It's purely conjecture on my part, but I don't think he's fought outside of Montreal since taking the title back from Serra.

I want to see Silva v. GSP first, and once Silva murders Georges, Silva v. Jones.

[safado]

Especially because amateurs fight shorter rounds, or not as many depending on their level. Often times, they get away with slapping or touching and outrunning the clock

I'll pm you about this because my response would be too long and " ahh safado etc...." This REALLY bothers me about sport fighting and I see MMA going in the same direction


St Pierre, Silva etc.... are all a bit protected.

I see it like this - the UFC wants and needs icons in specialized markets. The people who can step up and show what they're made of do it. Brazil and Canada are huge markets. You can't take away from great fighters - and I mean those guys are truly great - but they stepped up to fill a role

The UFC is smart about who they put in against those guys and the circumstances of their fights. I'm sure Dana White nearly had a coronary when Chale Sonnen nearly beat Silva and then went ahead and made the biggest fight of all time

Silva has only lost twice - both times to tough Japanese fighters who had great leglocks and takedowns. Look at Silva's record - no explosive takedown artists except for Henderson and I'm very convinced Henderson could have won their first fight (there were some special cirumstances)

The UFC won't put a guy who isn't marketable but has the right style to fight a guy like Silva or St Pierre. Someone like Chael Sonnen or Hector Lombard could have the right chops to do it, or just the right style really - but no one will risk it

Same with St Pierre  - why risk the whole Canadian market.

Jones is different - he is a heel. I think some people are being brought along to beat him - to be more specific Lyoto and Glover, and both guys can do it

Skeletor is right

[issue9mm]

Silva won't fight any unknowns at this point because he's earned the right to pick his fights, and he's only going to fight the best. 

In all fairness, Sonnen wasn't exactly well known to UFC fans before he fought Silva, despite his record elsewhere. 

As for marketability, I think you're making a bigger deal out of it than it is.  They don't just let everybody in who 'qualifies' because the UFC puts people on contract, and as such, they're getting paid whether or not they're fighting.  That is also why Dana White is quick to cut people who put off fights, lose consecutively or don't draw a crowd, because he's paying for it.  Like the NFL, talent trumps all in the UFC, and winning fights is the key to staying employed. 

[safado]

Disagree, sorry

The UFC just cut over 100 fighters but will likely let them fight under one fight contracts. A lot of those fighters were winning all of their fights but simply weren't drawing the fan base etc...............

So instead of paying for fighters contracts you let them in under a one fight contract - they win or lose, but you don't pay anything monthly or in terms of benefits and call them back when a card needs people

A few dozen people are under contract but........most end up as freelancers essentially fighting job to job

The UFC will prefer an exciting guy who loses fights to a boring guy who wins them - this is well-known in fight circles. A lot of the guys who were cut were on win streaks - other guys who stayed were losing exciting fights.

I've seen this happen a  lot - the UFC will match fighters against guys who are bad style match-ups if they don't want you to hang around and will give you great match ups if they want to keep you around

If you are a ko guy who fights planted and doesn't move around a lot - expect to fight somebody who likes to slug it out but isn't quite on your level - you'll get the exciting ko. If you are a flashy grappler - you won't fight guys who have great takedown defense etc.........

I agree with you about Anderson earning the right to pick his opponents - what I'm saying is that the UFC has been picking the right ones for him before he decided to do so himself - the UFC will build icons for the market it neeeds.

Dan Hardy is half the fighter of all the guys who were cut - but he and Bisping are a handful of Brits in the UFC and therefore will hang around as long as they want. If a Chinese fighter comes along - expect him to headline UFC Beijing and expect him to get perfectly matched fights until the UFC moves into the market

ni tong wo?