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Author Topic: Superman vs Captain Marvel (DC) - Strength  (Read 17988 times)

The ACE

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Re: Superman vs Captain Marvel (DC) - Strength
« Reply #40 on: November 04, 2009, 12:19:32 pm »

Shuruku, I totally disagree with your reasoning of "I can't think of too many (or any) instances where everyone turned to Superman to deal with a threat, while Captain Marvel stood by and watched from the sidelines. The fact is, Cap often isn't around for whatever reason when a major threat shows up."

Unless you were never aware of the major events in DC and just posted non-chalantly.

Panic in the Sky
OWAW
DC 1Million
Worlds Collide
Invasion

These are DC major events that affected the entire DC Earth with Superman leading the charge. So your excuse of "because he (Capt. Marvel) was in a different city" is inexcusable.

Even in the "Spear of Destiny" arc Spectre V3 #21, the first person to be called by Washington to get the Spear of Destiny to stop/destroy the Spectre was Superman not Capt. Marvel.

The DC populace had been conditioned that the first person they could always turn to in times of trouble is always Superman (that is, in non-magical events). That's how it goes. That's how it works and that's how it will always be.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2009, 12:22:29 pm by The ACE »
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Mediocre Jack

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Re: Superman vs Captain Marvel (DC) - Strength
« Reply #41 on: November 04, 2009, 12:27:14 pm »

Even in the "Spear of Destiny" arc Spectre V3 #21, the first person to be called by Washington to get the Spear of Destiny to stop/destroy the Spectre was Superman not Capt. Marvel.

The DC populace had been conditioned that the first person they could always turn to in times of trouble is always Superman (that is, in non-magical events). That's how it goes. That's how it works and that's how it will always be.

So they are conditioned to not call Superman in magical events but then they call Superman to get this uber magical artifact to kill this uber magical being.

DC Earth really is dumber than Marvel Earth.
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Ares

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Re: Superman vs Captain Marvel (DC) - Strength
« Reply #42 on: November 04, 2009, 12:28:53 pm »

Shuruku, I totally disagree with your reasoning of "I can't think of too many (or any) instances where everyone turned to Superman to deal with a threat, while Captain Marvel stood by and watched from the sidelines. The fact is, Cap often isn't around for whatever reason when a major threat shows up."

Unless you were never aware of the major events in DC and just posted non-chalantly.

Panic in the Sky
OWAW

To be fair Ace, both of these events occurred mostly in Superman's books, were Superman centric events. PitS actually put more emphasis on Green Lanterns being the big guns power wise than Superman, though Superman was unquestionably the leader of the event (well, but everyone but Guy Gardner, but Guy can be an ass at times). OW@W had Cap billed alongside Superman as being part of the most powerful group of heroes assembled at the time, and when he appeared Superman needed a power up to out perform him.

Quote
DC 1Million
Worlds Collide
Invasion

Cap didn't appear in these events, apart from his future self showing up at the end of DC1M.

Quote
These are DC major events that affected the entire DC Earth with Superman leading the charge. So your excuse of "because he (Capt. Marvel) was in a different city" is inexcusable.

Even in the "Spear of Destiny" arc Spectre V3 #21, the first person to be called by Washington to get the Spear of Destiny to stop/destroy the Spectre was Superman not Capt. Marvel.

Superman was a little more easy to reach than Cap by the federal government at the time, until he and Sarge Steel started working together in the Power of Shazam series. During Day of Judgement, when they needed to get the Spear, Captain Marvel was the one sent to get it and was the only one who could resist its corrupting influence.
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The ACE

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Re: Superman vs Captain Marvel (DC) - Strength
« Reply #43 on: November 04, 2009, 12:30:52 pm »

So they are conditioned to not call Superman in magical events but then they call Superman to get this uber magical artifact to kill this uber magical being.

DC Earth really is dumber than Marvel Earth.

For major events involving magic per se, there are usually no one primarily called. Instead, it's a congregate of mages that detect it than an action is done. It's not like the President of the USA can suddenly feel a shift in some necromantic pool and call upon Superman to help.
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The ACE

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Re: Superman vs Captain Marvel (DC) - Strength
« Reply #44 on: November 04, 2009, 12:37:19 pm »

To be fair Ace, both of these events occurred mostly in Superman's books, were Superman centric events. PitS actually put more emphasis on Green Lanterns being the big guns power wise than Superman, though Superman was unquestionably the leader of the event (well, but everyone but Guy Gardner, but Guy can be an ass at times). OW@W had Cap billed alongside Superman as being part of the most powerful group of heroes assembled at the time, and when he appeared Superman needed a power up to out perform him.

Superman needed a powerup to outperform Cap????? What the heck??

Ares, Ares, Ares, this is totaly false. He needed the power-up to stop Brainiac-13 as Brainiac-13 was starting to adjust to godhood. There was no other one else capable of stopping B-13 and they needed it fast. Superman's didn't powerup due to some "needed to outperform him" misinformation.

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Cap didn't appear in these events, apart from his future self showing up at the end of DC1M.

Proving Superman is the nexus of most major events.

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Superman was a little more easy to reach than Cap by the federal government at the time, until he and Sarge Steel started working together in the Power of Shazam series. During Day of Judgement, when they needed to get the Spear, Captain Marvel was the one sent to get it and was the only one who could resist its corrupting influence.

Again, not true RE: easier to reach. The simplest thing is that the President had utmost faith that of all the super-heroes he can count on in times of trouble is Superman. These from the after events of Legends, Invasion, Millenium, et al.

Superman already knew that the influence of the Spear was strong so there was no point for him of getting after it. That would be stupidity.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2009, 12:39:55 pm by The ACE »
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Ares

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Re: Superman vs Captain Marvel (DC) - Strength
« Reply #45 on: November 04, 2009, 12:43:08 pm »

A question to those who have an issue with the wording of the poll, let me just ask:

If you don't feel Superman is strong enough for the difference of strength to be noticeable to a degree large enough to impact a test of strength between the two, then what is the problem with the poll? Saying one is "slightly" stronger than the other while not feeling that difference is enough to really impact a strength test indicates that whatever slight strength edge you might give one doesn't really matter in the overall picture. The poll simply asks it you feel there is a meaningful difference between the two strength wise, and if so, by what margin. That is all.
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Thunder 85

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Re: Superman vs Captain Marvel (DC) - Strength
« Reply #46 on: November 04, 2009, 12:49:37 pm »

Occassionally CM comes off looking stronger, such as when Eclipso Supes charges in flying to punch CM and he catches his fist and stops him dead in his tracks. Jelly uses a similar scene in JLAvengers to say Supes is clearly stronger than Thor, but likes to ignore the implications in the Supes/CM fight.

The right answer is option #1. Jelly is still living in 2003
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Ares

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Re: Superman vs Captain Marvel (DC) - Strength
« Reply #47 on: November 04, 2009, 12:50:49 pm »

Superman needed a powerup to outperform Cap????? What the heck??

Ares, Ares, Ares, this is totaly false. He needed the power-up to stop Brainiac-13 as Brainiac-13 was starting to adjust to godhood. There was no other one else capable of stopping B-13 and they needed it fast. Superman's didn't powerup due to some "needed to outperform him" misinformation.

Not at all. I'm stating that in the instances where Cap appeared in the issues, he kept up with Superman just fine in terms of physical performance, and it was only after Superman Sundipped that we saw Superman outperform Cap.

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Proving Superman is the nexus of most major events.

No, just that Captain Marvel isn't written into most DC events or written out of them for a variety of reasons.

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Again, not true RE: easier to reach. The simplest thing is that the President had utmost faith that of all the super-heroes he can count on in times of trouble is Superman. These from the after events of Legends, Invasion, Millenium, et al.

Perhaps I misunderstood your point of contention, but it was my understanding that we were debating physical power and not Superman's standing as a heroic individual within the DC superheroic community. Superman is unquestionably DC's biggest and greatest hero and looked to as the person best suited, if not to personally lead the heroes Captain America style, at least serve as a rallying point, moral compass and person to provide general direction while others come up with a plan. During Zero Hour, when the decision about who was the best suited to direct the heroes was never in question. Captain Marvel flat out stated Superman was the best for the job.

The issue I thought was being debated was whether Superman looked physically superior to Captain Marvel during any of those events.

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Superman already knew that the influence of the Spear was strong so there was no point for him of getting after it. That would be stupidity.

And that Captain Marvel was better suited for the job than him.
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The ACE

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Re: Superman vs Captain Marvel (DC) - Strength
« Reply #48 on: November 04, 2009, 12:56:35 pm »

Not at all. I'm stating that in the instances where Cap appeared in the issues, he kept up with Superman just fine in terms of physical performance, and it was only after Superman Sundipped that we saw Superman outperform Cap.

Any Earth-based Imperiex Probe Cap wrecked there? I'm not talking about those space drones but the type that Aquaman, Hippolyta and even Krypto battled.

Quote
No, just that Captain Marvel isn't written into most DC events or written out of them for a variety of reasons.

And why is this so?

Quote
Perhaps I misunderstood your point of contention, but it was my understanding that we were debating physical power and not Superman's standing as a heroic individual within the DC superheroic community. Superman is unquestionably DC's biggest and greatest hero and looked to as the person best suited, if not to personally lead the heroes Captain America style, at least serve as a rallying point, moral compass and person to provide general direction while others come up with a plan. During Zero Hour, when the decision about who was the best suited to direct the heroes was never in question. Captain Marvel flat out stated Superman was the best for the job.

The issue I thought was being debated was whether Superman looked physically superior to Captain Marvel during any of those events.

In the eyes of DCU that is, if some great threat comes to Earth, it's always Superman than Cap that gets called upon to confront it. Even on a solo mission, Superman gets called first to meet the enemy? Why?

Quote
And that Captain Marvel was better suited for the job than him.

Since there was no point for Superman to even volunteer.
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Ares

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Re: Superman vs Captain Marvel (DC) - Strength
« Reply #49 on: November 04, 2009, 01:09:17 pm »

Any Earth-based Imperiex Probe Cap wrecked there? I'm not talking about those space drones but the type that Aquaman, Hippolyta and even Krypto battled.

No, because Captain Marvel made all of two appearances at the end. We have no idea what he was up to during the event, only that he was not amongst the heroes who had been defeated by the Probes and that when he showed up, he had not trouble keeping up with Superman, Wonder Woman and Captain Atom, and holding the line against Brainiac until Superman returned post-sundip.

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And why is this so?

Heck if I know. There was a stretch in DC where I think the writers actually forgot Cap existed, and when they did remember him they were careful to write him out of the series. Granted, during that point Cap was still in his "A New Beginning" version and recovering from the Giffen JLI series, but there you go.

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In the eyes of DCU that is, if some great threat comes to Earth, it's always Superman than Cap that gets called upon to confront it. Even on a solo mission, Superman gets called first to meet the enemy? Why?

Because he's their number one hero and amongst the most powerful heroes in the universe. That's a pretty winning combination for a go to guy. 

I'm not arguing Superman's iconic status in the DC or his position as one of their biggest guns, but then that's not what this topic is about.

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Since there was no point for Superman to even volunteer.

Right, because it was a job for Captain Marvel, not Superman.
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The ACE

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Re: Superman vs Captain Marvel (DC) - Strength
« Reply #50 on: November 04, 2009, 01:21:42 pm »

No, because Captain Marvel made all of two appearances at the end. We have no idea what he was up to during the event, only that he was not amongst the heroes who had been defeated by the Probes and that when he showed up, he had not trouble keeping up with Superman, Wonder Woman and Captain Atom, and holding the line against Brainiac until Superman returned post-sundip.

There you go! So don't even state that he was comparable to Superman when in fact even before the events, Superman was already battling Earth-based probes. Cap's claim to fame was working along side his own team.

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Heck if I know. There was a stretch in DC where I think the writers actually forgot Cap existed, and when they did remember him they were careful to write him out of the series. Granted, during that point Cap was still in his "A New Beginning" version and recovering from the Giffen JLI series, but there you go.

Hence, why Superman is regarded as in most major events as the focal point. The best I remember Cap was during the War of the Gods and he shared the spotlight with Diana.

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Because he's their number one hero and amongst the most powerful heroes in the universe. That's a pretty winning combination for a go to guy. 
I'm not arguing Superman's iconic status in the DC or his position as one of their biggest guns, but then that's not what this topic is about.

You see, neither am I suggesting you are doing so. Rather in the view of the DCU, if some bad ass monster starts ripping the Earth, it's always Superman that they ask come and save them. It's more than just because his iconic. It's more than because he is Earth's greatest hero. Because in the minds of the DCU, Superman is simply the strongest (or even the most powerful) hero of Earth and they know he can get the job done. That's how it is.

Fanboys can argue Superman and Cap are equals in a pissing contest or egg smashing contest or thumb wrestling and whatever but in DCU that is more often a different story.

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Right, because it was a job for Captain Marvel, not Superman.

This is a job for Captain Marvel! I'll think of some apt catchphrase for Cap's intro.
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shadowknight

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Re: Superman vs Captain Marvel (DC) - Strength
« Reply #51 on: November 04, 2009, 01:53:31 pm »

The Thor vs Hulk dynamics perfectly illustrates Superman vs CM. Whenever CM isn't around Superman is clearly shown to be stronger, yet because of story dynamics Superman and CM are often show to be near equals.

            The thing is when we  listen to the comics themselves Superman is said over and over to be DC strongest hero. In an interview Geoff John said in no uncertain terms  the Superman is DC most powerful hero. Kurt Busiek has said Superman is stronger than Count Neferia, John Byrne considers Superman stronger than CM,  Loeb has demonstrated even with Kryptonite weakening him he was able to look as an equal to Superman, I won't even go into Waid or Starlin anybody who read Superman comics written by Waid or Mystery in Space written by Starlin knows how Starlin feels. IIRC Gail Simone has all but said in the DC Drone that Superman is stronger than CM. In fact I can't think of 1 major DC writer or Editor that ever implied or hinted that Superman isn't DC strongest hero.
        
               So why does Superman and CM look so close in power? Answer: People keep forgetting Superman holds back more than most hero. So even when  he looks like he not holding back  he subconsciously hold back on his power. This was amply demonstrated by Mongul Jr when he told Superman he could look past earth atmosphere, Mongul Jr told him he was subsconsiously holding back. When Superman stopped holding back he could see past earth atmosphere, nowdays Superman can see to the edge of the universe that like a 10 to Infinity increase in telescopic  vision increase. In a like manner Superman holds back on his true strenght level.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2009, 03:19:28 pm by shadowknight »
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Re: Superman vs Captain Marvel (DC) - Strength
« Reply #52 on: November 04, 2009, 02:09:48 pm »

Quote
Superman and Cap are equal when the writers want to use Cap as a Superman foil.  But when that isn't at play, Superman is often stronger.  A whole lot more than Cap is stronger.


Cap isn't written into a lot of events because he and Martian Manunter have never really fit into the DCU well. They are usually written as Superman-lite and their characters aren't as fleshed out as they could be so many writers prefer not to deal with them.

    I personally would prefer to see Cap Marvel played up and Martian Manhubters physcial aspects downplayed to give him a more mystical, shaman-like nature. id ont mind Cap Marvel as the one hero who can be as strong as Superman but I just dont see it as being the case. Cap is only as strong as Superman when he serves as the foil for Superman or in the rare case the writer has a hard on for Cap like Alex Ross
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UniOmni

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Re: Superman vs Captain Marvel (DC) - Strength
« Reply #53 on: November 04, 2009, 02:11:46 pm »

I don't understand the line of thinking that pushes "When Caps not around he's stronger".
Has Superman ever said he's weaker because Cap is around?
No.
They're presented as physical equals for the most part because thats how the writer wishes to portray them.
And Cap's not around in many big events for the same reason why MM is often taken out via surprise attack, or something stupid.
When you build people up to rival your numero uno in power, having numero uno plus his rival in power both there to save the day removes dramatic tension.
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shadowknight

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Re: Superman vs Captain Marvel (DC) - Strength
« Reply #54 on: November 04, 2009, 03:16:50 pm »

I don't understand the line of thinking that pushes "When Caps not around he's stronger".
Has Superman ever said he's weaker because Cap is around?
No.
They're presented as physical equals for the most part because thats how the writer wishes to portray them.
And Cap's not around in many big events for the same reason why MM is often taken out via surprise attack, or something stupid.
When you build people up to rival your numero uno in power, having numero uno plus his rival in power both there to save the day removes dramatic tension.
No one is saying Superman is weaker because CM is around.

Here's my statement. " The Thor vs Hulk dynamics perfectly illustrates Superman vs CM. Whenever CM isn't around Superman clearly is shown to be stronger, yet because of story dynamics Superman and CM are often show to be near equals."

Just like Hulk and Thor  the demands of plot often skew their dynamics. Hulk is clearly stronger than Thor, yet because marvel storyline they are often portrayed as near equal when around each other.  That doesn't mean Thor makes Hulk weaker it means Thor is shown to be his near equal when feat wise Hulk is clearly stronger than Thor.

   As for MM,  he never been show to be Superman equal in Strenght, Durability or Speed. Is MM Cl 100 yes, but there's a difference between being borderline Cl 100 which MM is at DC and Elite Cl 100 which Superman has demonstrated to be at DC. What makes MM formidable is his versatility, any constest between him and Superman in the powers they share MM will be a distant second.
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Judge Dredd

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Re: Superman vs Captain Marvel (DC) - Strength
« Reply #55 on: November 04, 2009, 04:00:44 pm »

Plus, there was a point where Thor was distracted (by an oncoming train) that allowed the Hulk to gain the advantage for the first real time in the fight.

Only thing I would point out here is that if anyone was distracted by that, it was more likely to be Hulk as the thing crashed straight into his back at full speed.

Mjolnir also gave Thor the upper hand against the Hulk in that issue, rather than merely allowing him to match him.

A bit, yeah. And don't get me wrong. I'm not arguing that there hasn't been a shift over the years. I think Unibrow may've been onto something when he said that Thor might actually have been stronger than the very early Hulk, and that the pendulum has gradually swung the other way since then.

Yeah, the bold bit is the main thing that I think backs my analysis on that particular historical trend. The early Hulk/Thor fights were without Mjolnir or involved Hulk trying to separate Thor from Mjolnir. Thor still looked dead even in pure hand-to-hand.

In MT #385, that shifted slightly. Thor was dominant with Mjolnir, but was eventually on the receiving end of it hand-to-hand (this was also the first fight between the two that I can recall Hulk's dynamic strength being specifically addressed as a factor between the two).

The most recent fights have Hulk more or less stalemating Thor without the need to separate him from Mjolnir (albeit Thor mostly using it only as a bludgeon/lightning rod). That's a definite trend from the Stan Lee days.





Cheers.
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Sick Nick

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Re: Superman vs Captain Marvel (DC) - Strength
« Reply #56 on: November 04, 2009, 04:15:42 pm »

A bit, yeah. And don't get me wrong. I'm not arguing that there hasn't been a shift over the years. I think Unibrow may've been onto something when he said that Thor might actually have been stronger than the very early Hulk, and that the pendulum has gradually swung the other way since then.

It was certainly Stan Lee's intention originally that Thor was the stronger of the two, or at least the more powerful. He always said that Thor was the next logical step from the Hulk ... Hulk+, basically.

In practice though, I don't think that was the case.
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Re: Superman vs Captain Marvel (DC) - Strength
« Reply #57 on: November 04, 2009, 04:18:50 pm »

The Thor vs Hulk dynamics perfectly illustrates Superman vs CM.

No, it doesn't because nobody really believes that Thor is as strong as the Hulk anymore.
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Re: Superman vs Captain Marvel (DC) - Strength
« Reply #58 on: November 04, 2009, 04:21:26 pm »

So, when has Superman proven to be stronger than Cap anyway?
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Ares

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Re: Superman vs Captain Marvel (DC) - Strength
« Reply #59 on: November 04, 2009, 04:24:01 pm »

No, it doesn't because nobody really believes that Thor is as strong as the Hulk anymore.

And Superman doesn't have Hulk-like dynamic strength.
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Re: Superman vs Captain Marvel (DC) - Strength
« Reply #60 on: November 04, 2009, 04:27:48 pm »

Occassionally CM comes off looking stronger, such as when Eclipso Supes charges in flying to punch CM and he catches his fist and stops him dead in his tracks. Jelly uses a similar scene in JLAvengers to say Supes is clearly stronger than Thor, but likes to ignore the implications in the Supes/CM fight.

The right answer is option #1. Jelly is still living in 2003

Actually, I already addressed this, and NO, by this showings, Superman clearly came off as stronger, as not only did he manhandle Cap with relative ease by opunching him across a continent, but Cap needed to use a magick lightning in order to catch Superman's punch--since of course he couldn't do it with strength alone.

And no, catching someone's fist by surrounding your hand with energy that disrupts the persons durability isn't the same as Catching a Magick War hammer that is surrounded with energy that disrupts your invulnerability while flat on your back with zero leverage.

While we're at it, Cap got handled by Thor, while Superman made him eat dirt.

Sorry, but Cap's magickal nature means that Superman is that much mroe powerful and formidable in order to match and defeat him. '

Option #1 is a blatantly misleading red herring.  Being 'virtual equals' and 'having no significant strength advantage' are two separate things with a large range in between them. Thor is clearly stronger than Wonder Man but he isn't significantly stronger.

I'm living in 2009, son. Superman still stalemates  above top tier Pre-Crisis Kryptonians, has been consistently portrayed as being able to match and/or dominate Darkseid, who is well above Cap's "base-Superman"-level strength.
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Panthergod

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Re: Superman vs Captain Marvel (DC) - Strength
« Reply #61 on: November 04, 2009, 04:33:37 pm »

Not at all. I'm stating that in the instances where Cap appeared in the issues, he kept up with Superman just fine in terms of physical performance, and it was only after Superman Sundipped that we saw Superman outperform Cap.
uh..No, we saw Superman drastically outperform Cap's power level when he was shown defeating Imperiex Probes.

A Base Superman couldn't dent an Imperiex Probe. Cap's has ALWAYS failed to physically outperform or overpower a base level Superman.

Superman needed to reach a much higher level of power output in order to defeat a single Probe, let alone numerous Probe's.

The only people who ever defeated Imepriex Probes under their own power or without an external power up or uber-weapon was Superman, Pokolistan Zod( a Superman clone fro all intents and purposes, identical kryptonian powerset albeit powered by red sun), H/P level Doomsday and an avatar of Braniac-13.

Don't you dare try to bullshit and pretend as if Cap has ever been as powerful as All Out Superman was presented in OWAW.
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Re: Superman vs Captain Marvel (DC) - Strength
« Reply #62 on: November 04, 2009, 04:39:29 pm »

I don't understand the line of thinking that pushes "When Caps not around he's stronger".
Has Superman ever said he's weaker because Cap is around?
No.
They're presented as physical equals for the most part because thats how the writer wishes to portray them.
And Superman is presented as a guy who normally is accessing only a fraction of his true power and fluctuate his power output for any of his stats upwards to a degree Cap never has.

This is done to allow for the 'first among equals' portrayals where Cap is his equal, diana is a rival, etc..and also for the 'undisputed #1, where Superman is the only guy that can take on JLA-team wreckers, etc.

Quote
And Cap's not around in many big events for the same reason why MM is often taken out via surprise attack, or something stupid.
When you build people up to rival your numero uno in power, having numero uno plus his rival in power both there to save the day removes dramatic tension.

That, and Cap is useless in those situations. J'Onn gets taken out because he's the preferred sacrificial lamb on the altar of Superman's superiority.
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Re: Superman vs Captain Marvel (DC) - Strength
« Reply #63 on: November 04, 2009, 04:48:53 pm »

So, when has Superman proven to be stronger than Cap anyway?
Do I need to draw you a map? In Superman/Batman #4, eventhough  there's a massive multi tons meteor coming steadily closer to earth for days Superman stalemate Cap Marvel.  Unless your related to Quanchi  you'd Know that kryptonite makes Superman weaker not stronger. Yet even in his weakened state he proved to be a match for CM. So how do you explain it away.

A. CM was holding back and didn't really want to defeat and capture Superman even though he started attacking by suprise with a magical lighting Superman  that gives Superman fits. Or CM is a closet masochist who enjoys getting punched in the faced by people with a big red S on their chest.

B. Superman who almost always hold back, was weakened by the massive kryptonite meteor but because of the fact he's considerably stronger that he actually believes himself to be he was still a match for CM even in his weakened state.
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Re: Superman vs Captain Marvel (DC) - Strength
« Reply #64 on: November 04, 2009, 04:54:47 pm »

And Superman doesn't have Hulk-like dynamic strength.
Irrelevant.

Superman still has dynamic, fluctuating strength to a much greater degree than anything Captain Marvel has displayed.

We've seen Cap fluctuate his strength to probably it's highest point(Herc+Atlas with Zeus) and FAIL to out-muscle a Superman who hadn't yet learned to unleash his normally suppressed full strength and power.
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Re: Superman vs Captain Marvel (DC) - Strength
« Reply #65 on: November 04, 2009, 05:06:07 pm »

Boo hoo superman is used more, boo hoo Cap Marvel is never around.  Shut up.  Of course these characters are going to be fairly equal in terms of everything due to the fact that they're heroes, and that they're never REALLY going to fight each other.

As for the poll, its fucking dumb, and being slightly stronger than someone is still being stronger than them.  Ares can suck it.

ps.  if doomsday was owning my town Id want supes, not marvel to end him.

pps.  cap marvel and black fagam are both 92's to superman's 100.
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Shitty nappy whizzing through the air, you don’t see that in the brochures.

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Re: Superman vs Captain Marvel (DC) - Strength
« Reply #66 on: November 04, 2009, 05:14:50 pm »

So, when has Superman proven to be stronger than Cap anyway?
We saw him portrayed as an equal to a Black Adam specifically portrayed at the time as stronger and more powerful than Captain Marvel.

We saw Superman physically dominate Captain Marvel until Cap used weakness exploitation to match him(magick lighting).


Those instances by themselves are ample precedent.

We've seen Superman state that when he goes all out in a particular manner (lower his 'mental blocks')his powers fluctuate upwards.

We've seen that an All Out Superman can defeat Cap after taking out GL, WW, Supergirl and Flash.

We've seen Superman outperform Cap 1 on 1 against character swho have stalemated and/or defeated Cap - despite having a weakness to Cap's type of energy source:

Thor
Eclipso
Wonder Woman
Despero
Martian Manhunter


We've seen characters who rival Superman physically be dominated or above top tier characters be matched and even dominated by Superman when he cuts loose and fluctuates his power output upwards:
DoS Doomsday,
Disciple,
Imperiex Probes,
Darkseid,
All Out Supergirl,
Kal-L,
Despero,
Aegis Bracelets.

The facts is Superman's highest end and All Our portrayals trump Cap.

The ONLY way for anyone to pretend as if Cap is a 'virtual equal is by deliberately ignoring every Superman portrayal possible that Cap can't match.



« Last Edit: November 04, 2009, 05:17:02 pm by Jellyrobes »
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Re: Superman vs Captain Marvel (DC) - Strength
« Reply #67 on: November 04, 2009, 05:17:46 pm »

Boo hoo superman is used more, boo hoo Cap Marvel is never around.  Shut up.  Of course these characters are going to be fairly equal in terms of everything due to the fact that they're heroes, and that they're never REALLY going to fight each other.

As for the poll, its fucking dumb, and being slightly stronger than someone is still being stronger than them.  Ares can suck it.

ps.  if doomsday was owning my town Id want supes, not marvel to end him.

pps.  cap marvel and black fagam are both 92's to superman's 100.


[/thread]
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Re: Superman vs Captain Marvel (DC) - Strength
« Reply #68 on: November 04, 2009, 05:20:00 pm »

And Superman doesn't have Hulk-like dynamic strength.
Stop this, you're trying to act like SE and you failing miserably you're smarter than this. NO one this board has ever hinted  that Superman strenght is similar to Hulk which gets stronger as he become madder.
              Superman powers work on a different dynamic, which is confidence. John Byrne has  said an interview IIRC Superman can get as strong as he needs to be. It was demonstrated when Superman was brainwashed by Darkseid his mindset has a direct corollation on his powers speciafically his strenght. What Superman normally demonstrates as his everyday level of power, isn't his true power level.

                  Almost every Superman writer has harped on this, he can self regulate his power level from cancelling out to increasing it to above his normal limits. This  has been DC official policy ever since JB wrote Superman in 1986 the only dispute has been how high can he raise it up. For someone of your intelligence and honesty to deny this fact beggars the mind.
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Re: Superman vs Captain Marvel (DC) - Strength
« Reply #69 on: November 04, 2009, 05:23:20 pm »

shadow the idea has been around since the mid to late 60's.
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Re: Superman vs Captain Marvel (DC) - Strength
« Reply #70 on: November 04, 2009, 05:27:04 pm »

Voted #1, though I think Supes is on average a very small bit stronger. Like maybe 100 to Cap's 98-99 or so. I like Cap much better than Superman though, so I freely admit that I could be biased
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Re: Superman vs Captain Marvel (DC) - Strength
« Reply #71 on: November 04, 2009, 05:28:27 pm »

Voted #1, though I think Supes is on average a very small bit stronger. Like maybe 100 to Cap's 98-99 or so. I like Cap much better than Superman though, so I freely admit that I could be biased
Adjusted for bias,

What you really mean is Cap is an 85 to Superman's 100.

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Re: Superman vs Captain Marvel (DC) - Strength
« Reply #72 on: November 04, 2009, 05:48:58 pm »

No what I really mean is Cap is a 98-99 to Superman's 100 (98 on most occasions), and Clark's minor strength advantage doesn't make me prefer a story starring him rather than Captain Marvel. I admitted Superman possibly has a small strength advantage over Cap, and that's about as good as your gonna get.

Your baiting faggotry aside, I just want to ask you an honest question. Why do you love Superman so much? I agree that he's a good character, but I don't see the basis for the magnitude of your Superman love; arguing for him to the point where you will never concede that any character could possibly be better than him in any way. I mean, I'd go so far as to say that I'm a Midnighter and Taskmaster fanboy but even fanboyism has bounds, and I concede other characters' possible superiority to them when the situation arises.

Edit: I list Cap as a 98 to Supes 100 because while I agree that Superman is generally portrayed as mildly stronger, I've never seen Superman do something with strength that I can't imagine Cap doing also, if in the same situation. Emphasis on "I've never seen", because I admit that I could be unaware of some possible outlier. I'm willing to be swayed.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2009, 05:53:45 pm by Wyntyr »
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Re: Superman vs Captain Marvel (DC) - Strength
« Reply #73 on: November 04, 2009, 05:54:57 pm »

No what I really mean is Cap is a 98-99 to Superman's 100 (98 on most occasions), and Clark's minor strength advantage doesn't make me prefer a story starring him rather than Captain Marvel. I admitted Superman possibly has a small strength advantage over Cap, and that's about as good as your gonna get.
..Because you bias has blinded you to the fact that Superman has demonstrated a far greater advantage than 2 percentage points which I've proven.

There's no way you can possibly come to that conclusion honestly concerning it's been proven that Superman has a greater advantage: therefore, you are lying, and don';t give a shit about being honest on this issue.

Adjusting your your blindingly dishonest bias,

Superman -100 Cap- 85.
Quote
Your baiting faggotry aside, I just want to ask you an honest question. Why do you love Superman so much? I agree that he's a good character, but I don't see the basis for the magnitude of your Superman love; arguing for him to the point where you will never concede that any character could possibly be better than him in any way. I mean, I'd go so far as to say that I'm a Midnighter and Taskmaster fanboy but even fanboyism has bounds, and I concede other characters' possible superiority to them when the situation arises.

I do to when it comes to Superman. what I won't do is pretend as if character who are not superior to superman in power are more powerful or that character he has a long history of displayed superiority to, either directly or indirectly, are his virtual equals.

Your stance is dependent on you lying about Superman's power by ignoring his showings which Cap cannot match. That's all anyone who pretends as if Captain Marvel is Superman's equal can do.
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Re: Superman vs Captain Marvel (DC) - Strength
« Reply #74 on: November 04, 2009, 06:02:52 pm »


Edit: I list Cap as a 98 to Supes 100 because while I agree that Superman is generally portrayed as mildly stronger, I've never seen Superman do something with strength that I can't imagine Cap doing also, if in the same situation. Emphasis on "I've never seen", because I admit that I could be unaware of some possible outlier. I'm willing to be swayed.

So

Cap can nearly tear Wonder Woman apart?  One shot KO her? Break her bones through her bracelets? Shatter the Aegis Bracelets with a couple punches? Oh yeah, he failed to.

Hold J'Onn at his mercy with one hand? Oh yeah, Cap physically fought him as a peer.

  Stalemate punch for punch a  fully powered Pre-Crisis Kryptonian who can physically shatter dimensional barriers while weakened?

Out-punch Darkseid and dominate him HTH?

You can 'imagine' Cap doing whatever you want, but the fact remains that Superman has been portrayed as stronger than anything Cap has displayed.
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Re: Superman vs Captain Marvel (DC) - Strength
« Reply #75 on: November 04, 2009, 06:05:18 pm »

Hold J'Onn at his mercy with one hand?

In what way could it possibly make sense to hold an amorphous shape-shifter who can turn intangible at anyone's mercy with one hand?
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Re: Superman vs Captain Marvel (DC) - Strength
« Reply #76 on: November 04, 2009, 06:09:24 pm »

In what way could it possibly make sense to hold an amorphous shape-shifter who can turn intangible at anyone's mercy with one hand?
To demonstrate how much more physically powerful you are than him, perhaps?

Sorry, but you know as well as I do that J'Onn is typically and historically presented as a brick. Deal with it.
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Indra THUNDERER

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Re: Superman vs Captain Marvel (DC) - Strength
« Reply #77 on: November 04, 2009, 06:28:49 pm »

Actually, I already addressed this, and NO, by this showings, Superman clearly came off as stronger, as not only did he manhandle Cap with relative ease by opunching him across a continent, but Cap needed to use a magick lightning in order to catch Superman's punch--since of course he couldn't do it with strength alone.

Where was "magic lightning" depicted in this fight?scans?
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Re: Superman vs Captain Marvel (DC) - Strength
« Reply #78 on: November 04, 2009, 06:29:06 pm »

To demonstrate how much more physically powerful you are than him, perhaps?

I didn't ask how many fingers you can fit around your dick.

I asked how it makes sense to hold a potentially intangible blob at your mercy with one hand.
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Panthergod

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Re: Superman vs Captain Marvel (DC) - Strength
« Reply #79 on: November 04, 2009, 06:31:25 pm »

To demonstrate how much more physically powerful you are than him, perhaps?

Sorry, but you know as well as I do that J'Onn is typically and historically presented as a brick. Deal with it.
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